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Should the UK leave the ECHR?

Reform and the Conservative Party believe leaving will fix the immigration crisis.

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Reply 1

Leaving the ECHR would stop people taking immigration appeals to the Strasbourg court but it's not a quick fix for the asylum system.

It's important to remember as well that most migrants right now are legal, not illegal...

Reply 2

I don't understand why the UK ever agreed to the ECHR. It's a pointless entity maintained for virtue signalling in my view. It is largely flouted by other countries when they want to ignore it. In the UK it is too often cited as a reason for not doing something and on that basis alone it should be scrapped.
Original post
by RedFeatherx
Reform and the Conservative Party believe leaving will fix the immigration crisis.
It shouldn't be scrapped and people should be allowed to move freely with no borders.

Reply 4

Original post
by Geo Lover 7
It shouldn't be scrapped and people should be allowed to move freely with no borders.

Why? It seems an illogical idea really. You believe you should have the right to walk into any country you please and settle there permanently? That's a nice idea but wholly impractical, not least because of the security implications of it.
Original post
by ErasistratusV
Why? It seems an illogical idea really. You believe you should have the right to walk into any country you please and settle there permanently? That's a nice idea but wholly impractical, not least because of the security implications of it.
Everybody is a human and should be treated with equality/equity and freedom to move where they please (unless they are dangerous e.g. Commited serious crimes, to society).

Reply 6

Original post
by Geo Lover 7
Everybody is a human and should be treated with equality/equity and freedom to move where they please (unless they are dangerous e.g. Commited serious crimes, to society).

That's a lovely idea but in reality it's physically impossible for the entire continent of Africa, for example, to move to and live in Europe. Which is basically what would happen if what you suggested was possible.

Reply 7

Original post
by ErasistratusV
That's a lovely idea but in reality it's physically impossible for the entire continent of Africa, for example, to move to and live in Europe. Which is basically what would happen if what you suggested was possible.

The idea that the entire continent of Africa can settle here is a complete fiction.

Legal migration and asylum numbers hit the levels they did due to deliberate policy decisions made by the Conservative government and those who voted for them. Blaming the ECHR/Human Rights Act is a distraction.

Reply 8

Original post
by Gazpacho.
The idea that the entire continent of Africa can settle here is a complete fiction.
Legal migration and asylum numbers hit the levels they did due to deliberate policy decisions made by the Conservative government and those who voted for them. Blaming the ECHR/Human Rights Act is a distraction.

No but you accept that if you permit the free movement of people with no controls a lot of people will head to the UK?

Reply 9

Original post
by ErasistratusV
No but you accept that if you permit the free movement of people with no controls a lot of people will head to the UK?

You are using a completely fictional and thus fundamentally dishonest line of argument to support your desire to overturn legislation that protects us from overreach of the government.

Reply 10

Original post
by Gazpacho.
You are using a completely fictional and thus fundamentally dishonest line of argument to support your desire to overturn legislation that protects us from overreach of the government.

I do not live in fear of any government overreach nor do I think the ECHR would in reality protect us from this anyway.

What the ECHR has to say about free movement or migration is of no consequence to anything anyway. Many countries choose to ignore the ECHR when they like anyway.

You don't have any valid argument to suggest why large numbers of people would not migrate to the UK nor any real reason that the UK should be party to the ECHR. All it is is another reason for the government to not do things and as I said, on that basis alone I am not in favour of it. It's a pointless organisation in my view. We are bound by the laws of the United Kingdom. If you don't like this fact you're in for a bad time really and would be best to emigrate.
(edited 11 months ago)

Reply 11

Original post
by ErasistratusV
I do not live in fear of any government overreach nor do I think the ECHR would in reality protect us from this anyway.
What the ECHR has to say about free movement or migration is of no consequence to anything anyway. Many countries choose to ignore the ECHR when they like anyway.
You don't have any valid argument to suggest why large numbers of people would not migrate to the UK nor any real reason that the UK should be party to the ECHR. All it is is another reason for the government to not do things and as I said, on that basis alone I am not in favour of it. It's a pointless organisation in my view. We are bound by the laws of the United Kingdom. If you don't like this fact you're in for a bad time really and would be best to emigrate.

Reasons why people would not move here:

-it’s significantly further away than other European countries
-it’s dangerous crossing the channel
-if they wanted benefits, literally ever other northern/Western European country has better ones
-brexit


Reasons people would move here

-English is a global language
-have family or friends here
Original post
by ErasistratusV
I do not live in fear of any government overreach nor do I think the ECHR would in reality protect us from this anyway.
What the ECHR has to say about free movement or migration is of no consequence to anything anyway. Many countries choose to ignore the ECHR when they like anyway.
You don't have any valid argument to suggest why large numbers of people would not migrate to the UK nor any real reason that the UK should be party to the ECHR. All it is is another reason for the government to not do things and as I said, on that basis alone I am not in favour of it. It's a pointless organisation in my view. We are bound by the laws of the United Kingdom. If you don't like this fact you're in for a bad time really and would be best to emigrate.
Immigrants could be taken back to countries where they will experience serious harm without the ECHR. The whole reason for migrating is to either escape harm and/or getting a better life. We should be proud that immigrants want to move here.

Reply 13

Original post
by RedFeatherx
Reasons why people would not move here:
-it’s significantly further away than other European countries
-it’s dangerous crossing the channel
-if they wanted benefits, literally ever other northern/Western European country has better ones
-brexit
Reasons people would move here
-English is a global language
-have family or friends here

People do more here though. They are prepared to risk their lives trying to cross the channel to do so. So your points are completely wrong.
Brexit is not a reason people would not migrate here. I don't even know why you would list this.
And if you want to discuss benefits or social support structures, why do you suppose people are camped in tents in France, whilst in the UK they are placed in temporary accommodation or hotels?

Reply 14

Original post
by Geo Lover 7
Immigrants could be taken back to countries where they will experience serious harm without the ECHR. The whole reason for migrating is to either escape harm and/or getting a better life. We should be proud that immigrants want to move here.

There are lots of countries that do not abide by the court for human rights.

Exactly how many migrants or refugees are you suggest the UK should accept? Given that the UK is literally the furthest corner of Europe from anyone fleeing from Asia, the middle East or Africa, does it not make sense to fly them in directly rather than force them to travel across an entire continent?
Original post
by ErasistratusV
There are lots of countries that do not abide by the court for human rights.
Exactly how many migrants or refugees are you suggest the UK should accept? Given that the UK is literally the furthest corner of Europe from anyone fleeing from Asia, the middle East or Africa, does it not make sense to fly them in directly rather than force them to travel across an entire continent?
Any that come here.

Reply 16

Original post
by Geo Lover 7
Any that come here.

Have you got a figure in mind? I mean it seems bizarre that we only accommodate those that risk their lives crossing the channel or climbing into a lorry. Why not just accept any that pitch up at any British embassy around the world? It would be safer for them.
Original post
by ErasistratusV
Have you got a figure in mind? I mean it seems bizarre that we only accommodate those that risk their lives crossing the channel or climbing into a lorry. Why not just accept any that pitch up at any British embassy around the world? It would be safer for them.
How would we get them to come here?

Reply 18

Original post
by Geo Lover 7
Immigrants could be taken back to countries where they will experience serious harm without the ECHR. The whole reason for migrating is to either escape harm and/or getting a better life. We should be proud that immigrants want to move here.

do not worry. we're bound by three other treaties that protect asylum seekers from non-refoulement ie returned to countries that threaten their life or freedom based on things like their race, religion or nationality and are given effect to domestic law through various legislation aside from the hra and enforced by uk courts. fear this will happen is one of the many reasons the rwanda plan failed as rwanda ain't known for its brilliant treatment of human rights (sources available upon request).

leaving echr will basically have no effect on reducing asylum claims on our shores and surely not sending them back if they fit the legal definition of refugee; that's why the focus has been on tackling people smugglers/providing foreign aid and not the asylum seekers themselves, as everyone has the right to pursue an asylum claim even if they arrive irregularly (eg small boats. this is pursuant of the 1951 refugee convention, separate treaty not echr). sympathy for fleeing unsafe countries is perfectly reasonable, but unfortunately public resources will always be an issue and if you're suggesting 'just take in everyone' well that can only be a fantasy and immigration must be controlled, somehow.

btw 'freedom of movement' as prescribed by echr does not mean the ability to live in any country of a person's choosing, if there's any confusion here. it means the freedom to move within the state's territory once lawfully there and the freedom to leave it, which was never even ratified by the uk, so not particularly relevant to this discussion.

and i'm assuming by 'immigration crisis' op actually means 'asylum seeker crisis', since we don't need to leave echr in order to tackle the overwhelming majority of immigration issues. legal migration (eg study/work visas, family sponsorship etc) is all managed domestically via government policy on visas and work grounds and has nothing to do with the echr.

Reply 19

Original post
by Genesiss
do not worry. we're bound by three other treaties that protect asylum seekers from non-refoulement ie returned to countries that threaten their life or freedom based on things like their race, religion or nationality and are given effect to domestic law through various legislation aside from the hra and enforced by uk courts. fear this will happen is one of the many reasons the rwanda plan failed as rwanda ain't known for its brilliant treatment of human rights (sources available upon request).
leaving echr will basically have no effect on reducing asylum claims on our shores and surely not sending them back if they fit the legal definition of refugee; that's why the focus has been on tackling people smugglers/providing foreign aid and not the asylum seekers themselves, as everyone has the right to pursue an asylum claim even if they arrive irregularly (eg small boats. this is pursuant of the 1951 refugee convention, separate treaty not echr). sympathy for fleeing unsafe countries is perfectly reasonable, but unfortunately public resources will always be an issue and if you're suggesting 'just take in everyone' well that can only be a fantasy and immigration must be controlled, somehow.
btw 'freedom of movement' as prescribed by echr does not mean the ability to live in any country of a person's choosing, if there's any confusion here. it means the freedom to move within the state's territory once lawfully there and the freedom to leave it, which was never even ratified by the uk, so not particularly relevant to this discussion.
and i'm assuming by 'immigration crisis' op actually means 'asylum seeker crisis', since we don't need to leave echr in order to tackle the overwhelming majority of immigration issues. legal migration (eg study/work visas, family sponsorship etc) is all managed domestically via government policy on visas and work grounds and has nothing to do with the echr.

It’s true that illegal immigrants have many tricks up their sleeves. For instance, someone could fly to this country from a random place and claim to have lost their passport, claiming to be from a consistently oppressed country. These individuals are well-versed in navigating the bureaucracy and know how to exploit its weaknesses. There’s a belief that the bureaucracy itself is the root cause of the inability of all governments to cause meaningful change. Consequently, there’s a growing discussion about abolishing the civil service (often referred to as the “blob”) as it counteracts some of the government’s measures. Perhaps this is also why immigration is out of control in this country, as even politicians feel powerless to address it.

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