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What do you think of Reform UK's proposed immigration tax?

They want to raise the employer national insurance rate to 20% when hiring non British citizens. The NI rate for British citizens would remain at 13.8%.

This is what is said in their manifesto, but I wonder if they would apply this to ALL non British citizens, including those with ILR or settled status. If so, that would definitely violate the withdrawal agreement, so I can only wonder the EU's retaliation. But Nigel Farage is not above ignoring the withdrawal agreement, and he's made that clear.

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Reply 1

I'm all for it, with a few carve outs for certain sectors ofc. However, it’s not a solution in itself it’s just part of a solution. Any meaningful solution needs to involve remigration, much stricter immigration requirements, much stricter welfare for immigrants, native engagement, tax breaks and so on. Overall, we need changes that make the UK very desirable for the top-quality immigrants in the short term, while focusing on engaging the native population to fill as many roles as possible long term. Conversely, we need to make the UK utterly horrifying for the low-quality immigrants in the short and long term.
Original post
by Djtoodles
we need to make the UK utterly horrifying for the low-quality immigrants in the short and long term.


What a ghoulish thing to say.

Reply 3

Original post
by safari24
They want to raise the employer national insurance rate to 20% when hiring non British citizens. The NI rate for British citizens would remain at 13.8%.
This is what is said in their manifesto, but I wonder if they would apply this to ALL non British citizens, including those with ILR or settled status. If so, that would definitely violate the withdrawal agreement, so I can only wonder the EU's retaliation. But Nigel Farage is not above ignoring the withdrawal agreement, and he's made that clear.

sadly i cannot open the manifesto, but for the sake of argument, let's assume this policy means all non-british citizens as it likely does. granted, reform does sometimes use legal terms they don't really mean. for instance: calling their manifesto a 'contract', when it's not really a contract.

how does increasing the tax burden on employers 'definitely violate' the withdrawal agreement? you have a source that this?

have you considered the obligations under the employment rights act 1996 and the equality act 2010?

aside from that, well employers will do what they always do when faced with increased business expenses, and pass the burden onto employees. offer all new hires lower salaries, including uk citizens, because heck why not. sucks to be anyone in the uk who needs a job above minimal wage, of course, and perhaps the wider economy since employees will have less disposal income to spend it on, but won't change much in terms of the immigration issue.

btw labour raised employer nic to 15% a few months ago, so reform's contract there needs updating.

Reply 4

Original post
by artful_lounger
What a ghoulish thing to say.

Not really, it’s how immigration is supposed to be. Immigration is to be for the benefit of the country, that is its only purpose. Why would you want low quality immigrants coming in? You wouldn't so you make it very difficult for them to get in, and if they manage to fake their way in, they quickly find out that they were better off at home. Losing sight of this is why we have had millions of low quality people flooding in over the last half decade or so.

Reply 5

The irony is that Reform is it is lead by a man who told us to vote Brexit to reduce net migration.

Instead Brexiters pushed net migration to record levels.

Reply 6

Original post
by Gazpacho.
The irony is that Reform is it is lead by a man who told us to vote Brexit to reduce net migration.
Instead Brexiters pushed net migration to record levels.

To be fair to Brexit, it wasn't exactly a Brexiters dream to have insane immigration levels. That was the result of one man (Johnson) and his lackies (Tories) bowing to pressure from the markets. Rightly or wrongly I don't think those who voted for Brexit expect to get stabbed in the back like that.

Reply 7

Original post
by Djtoodles
To be fair to Brexit, it wasn't exactly a Brexiters dream to have insane immigration levels. That was the result of one man (Johnson) and his lackies (Tories) bowing to pressure from the markets. Rightly or wrongly I don't think those who voted for Brexit expect to get stabbed in the back like that.

There was nothing about Brexit that would address the British economy's dependence on migrant workers. It was obvious to many of us that non-EU migration would increase in the wake of Brexit. Sadly such voices of reason were drowned out by populist nonsense from the likes of Farage. Anyone who voted for Brexit or for the Conservatives in 2019 expecting a different outcome to skyrocketing levels of non-EU immigration did not make an informed decision.

The same goes for small boat crossings.

So it is frustrating that those who voted for the current circumstances are now some of the loudest voices complaining about it. They got what they voted for.

Reply 8

Original post
by Genesiss
sadly i cannot open the manifesto, but for the sake of argument, let's assume this policy means all non-british citizens as it likely does. granted, reform does sometimes use legal terms they don't really mean. for instance: calling their manifesto a 'contract', when it's not really a contract.
how does increasing the tax burden on employers 'definitely violate' the withdrawal agreement? you have a source that this?
have you considered the obligations under the employment rights act 1996 and the equality act 2010?
aside from that, well employers will do what they always do when faced with increased business expenses, and pass the burden onto employees. offer all new hires lower salaries, including uk citizens, because heck why not. sucks to be anyone in the uk who needs a job above minimal wage, of course, and perhaps the wider economy since employees will have less disposal income to spend it on, but won't change much in terms of the immigration issue.
btw labour raised employer nic to 15% a few months ago, so reform's contract there needs updating.

Because under the agreement, EU citizens with settled status must have the same rights to work as British citizens and not be discriminated.

I'm pretty sure the EU would retaliate if the UK made it harder for resident EU citizens to get a job here

Reply 9

Original post
by safari24
Because under the agreement, EU citizens with settled status must have the same rights to work as British citizens and not be discriminated.
I'm pretty sure the EU would retaliate if the UK made it harder for resident EU citizens to get a job here

that's what i thought you were going with this, which is why i mentioned the employment rights act 1996 and the equality act 2010.

this doesn't definitely violate the right to work tho. right to work means free from immigration control, ie those under the eu settlement scheme do not need a work visa; they enjoy the ability to apply for any job, pursue self-employment, and access full employment rights and protections as they did before brexit.

and it isn't direct discrimination cuz it's the employer who is is paying the national insurance contribution not the employee. employees pay the same nic rate as anyone else who works in the uk.

it's up to the employer, then, to comply with era 1996 and eqa 2010. burden is on the employers? does that make sense. happy to elaborate tomorrow if you're up for it.

Reply 10

Original post
by Genesiss
that's what i thought you were going with this, which is why i mentioned the employment rights act 1996 and the equality act 2010.
this doesn't definitely violate the right to work tho. right to work means free from immigration control, ie those under the eu settlement scheme do not need a work visa; they enjoy the ability to apply for any job, pursue self-employment, and access full employment rights and protections as they did before brexit.
and it isn't direct discrimination cuz it's the employer who is is paying the national insurance contribution not the employee. employees pay the same nic rate as anyone else who works in the uk.
it's up to the employer, then, to comply with era 1996 and eqa 2010. burden is on the employers? does that make sense. happy to elaborate tomorrow if you're up for it.

The withdrawal agreement wasn't just right to work. It was that EU citizens would be treated just like UK citizens in areas including employment, education, health, benefits etc.

Reply 11

Original post
by safari24
The withdrawal agreement wasn't just right to work. It was that EU citizens would be treated just like UK citizens in areas including employment, education, health, benefits etc.

they are being treated just like uk citizens by the government (in this area at least) and will continue to do so should this policy goes through.

as i said earlier in para 3 there, all employees pay the same nic rate (atm 8% on earnings above the £242 pw primary threshold). doesn't matter whether they have settled status or uk citizenship, or a visa in fact.

by paying the same nic rate, those with settled status receive the same access to social benefits (state pension etc); this policy doesn't change that.

what does change is how much the employer contributes (known as secondary contributions) but these do not affect their pay. it is inconsequential to them whether their employer pays 15% or 350%.

does that make sense? hope so cuz if we're not clear on that first i won't bombard you with more info about working rights and what it means to be treated equally at work. most relevant and interesting bit, but will get terribly tl;dr.

Reply 12

Original post
by Gazpacho.
There was nothing about Brexit that would address the British economy's dependence on migrant workers. It was obvious to many of us that non-EU migration would increase in the wake of Brexit. Sadly such voices of reason were drowned out by populist nonsense from the likes of Farage. Anyone who voted for Brexit or for the Conservatives in 2019 expecting a different outcome to skyrocketing levels of non-EU immigration did not make an informed decision.
The same goes for small boat crossings.
So it is frustrating that those who voted for the current circumstances are now some of the loudest voices complaining about it. They got what they voted for.

I don’t disagree but it misses the key cause. Britain only needs migrant workers because of things like the EU, globalism and immigration. Globalism is not your friend; it is the fundamental force responsible for everything wrong today. The EU was a microcosm of globalisation and like a drug the country became dependant on it, we took away the drug we needed the fix from elsewhere.

There were and are ways to mitigate the reliance on it, (20+% of the native working age population is inactive economically ffs) but they didn’t do that either.

If Reform were to turn off the tap, there will be a withdrawal period like with any drug, but its not the end and the economy will adjust. You don’t fix a drug addict by giving them more drugs.

On the topic of non-EEA immigrants, yes, there would have been a replacement of EU worker with non-EU worker if you didn’t want to adopt the correct long-term strategy of cold turkey, but that doesn’t explain the jump from 80-100k (already too high) up to 1million per year in the Boris wave or the 400k of 2024. The immigration system has been fundamentally broken for a long time; it exacerbates all the issues already being faced and until this is addressed you cant make things better. Then you have the costs of illegal immigration which are just a straight drain, because our system is too soft as a consequence of our own inability to be tough and the supranational like UN, ECHR.
It is all connected.

All this is before you factor in the other hidden costs of social unrest, breakdown of social cohesion, wage stagnation and so on.
(edited 8 months ago)

Reply 13

Original post
by Gazpacho.
The irony is that Reform is it is lead by a man who told us to vote Brexit to reduce net migration.
Instead Brexiters pushed net migration to record levels.

And whose wife is a migrant.

Reply 14

Original post
by Djtoodles
I'm all for it, with a few carve outs for certain sectors ofc. However, it’s not a solution in itself it’s just part of a solution. Any meaningful solution needs to involve remigration, much stricter immigration requirements, much stricter welfare for immigrants, native engagement, tax breaks and so on. Overall, we need changes that make the UK very desirable for the top-quality immigrants in the short term, while focusing on engaging the native population to fill as many roles as possible long term. Conversely, we need to make the UK utterly horrifying for the low-quality immigrants in the short and long term.

It's not part of any solution and quite probably is unlawful. But it will hit UK business squarely in the the heart. The NHS will be absolutely stuffed, as will the research industry, engineering, you name it.

In our bid to get rid of people who don't look like us, we forget that the whole reason Britain is Great historically is because we are a trading nation and have always had immigration. And when you have immigration, that fuels innovation and with that prosperity. We are a rich nation off the back of slavery (yes) but also of immigration.

I would rather see an increase in education and skills development rather than giving British people some sort of inherent right to employment. If I were an employer I would be less likely to hire at all rather than be forced to limit the choice of candidates.

There are two sides to politics. Facts and emotions. This is a policy that is about as emotional as it comes and solves none of the problems it purports to.

Reply 15

Original post
by Djtoodles
Globalism is not your friend

What an absolutely useless thing to say. Everything you own, everything you possess and the very house / flat you live in is the product of globalisation. Without it, you would still be living in a cave. And globalisation is an all or nothing. Folks like Trump and Farage see the manufacture of goods as a useful thing but the movement of people as a bad thing. Yes, there are issues around concentrations of migrants and their impact on services but at the same time they are the very people who have fuelled our economy since the war.

The reason we are booming is because of immigration because not only do they provide the labour we need, they also spend their earnings in our economy. If you get rid of the immigrants, you see a flat or deflated economy just as we have seen since Brexit where all of those high earning Europeans went home to be replaced by low earning migrants from SE Asia and Africa.

The only other way to boost the economy is to be more efficient but this requires technological innovation. And where does that innovation come from? That's right. Migrant workers who posses the skills we require.

The simplistic idea that we can operate in a global society by only allowing white people who participate in our society is just so wildly misplaced it is depressing. And you fall for it hook line and sinker because the argument in its favour is purely emotional and not based on any facts whatsoever.

Creating a group of people to blame creating a them and us mentality is a classic tactic used by politicians for drumming up support. Immigrants, the poor, benefit cheats, all groups of society that don't have a voice. Yet ironically, the real villains of the story, the super wealthy who follow a completely different set of rules to the rest of us, those billionaire tax evaders who don't even put their money in this country, people like for example, Nigel Farage. They are our saviours.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee because the likes of Farage spouting is deluded emotional nonsense about globalisation not being your friend - utter rubbish.

Reply 16

Original post
by artful_lounger
What a ghoulish thing to say.

Why....?

Reply 17

Original post
by Djtoodles
I don’t disagree but it misses the key cause. Britain only needs migrant workers because of things like the EU, globalism and immigration. Globalism is not your friend; it is the fundamental force responsible for everything wrong today. The EU was a microcosm of globalisation and like a drug the country became dependant on it, we took away the drug we needed the fix from elsewhere.
There were and are ways to mitigate the reliance on it, (20+% of the native working age population is inactive economically ffs) but they didn’t do that either.
If Reform were to turn off the tap, there will be a withdrawal period like with any drug, but its not the end and the economy will adjust. You don’t fix a drug addict by giving them more drugs.
On the topic of non-EEA immigrants, yes, there would have been a replacement of EU worker with non-EU worker if you didn’t want to adopt the correct long-term strategy of cold turkey, but that doesn’t explain the jump from 80-100k (already too high) up to 1million per year in the Boris wave or the 400k of 2024. The immigration system has been fundamentally broken for a long time; it exacerbates all the issues already being faced and until this is addressed you cant make things better. Then you have the costs of illegal immigration which are just a straight drain, because our system is too soft as a consequence of our own inability to be tough and the supranational like UN, ECHR.
It is all connected.
All this is before you factor in the other hidden costs of social unrest, breakdown of social cohesion, wage stagnation and so on.

I see you've gone down the populist globalist bogeyman route. Meanwhile you've completely overlooked Britain's productivity problem, which the British public spent 14 years voting not just to avoid the issue but actively contributing to it by stifling the nation of investment and reform under the guise of austerity, and our increasing pensioner to worker ratio that is hammering our finances. We're dependent on immigration because we've stuck our heads into the sand about these issues. If you want to see Britain resemble Poundland Japan, turning off immigration without economic reform is good way to go about it. Sadly a lot of mainstream political dialogue focuses on migrants rather than addressing the deeper structural economic problems of Britain.

We wouldn't be facing such high costs of illegal immigration if we hadn't voted to take back control of our borders. That caused boat crossings to skyrocket. Those "asylum seekers" are no longer the EU's problem. If Brexit voters had any sense of personal responsibly, they'd be picking up the hotel bills but instead it falls to mugs like me.

Reply 18

Original post
by Gazpacho.
I see you've gone down the populist globalist bogeyman route. Meanwhile you've completely overlooked Britain's productivity problem, which the British public spent 14 years voting not just to avoid the issue but actively contributing to it by stifling the nation of investment and reform under the guise of austerity, and our increasing pensioner to worker ratio that is hammering our finances. We're dependent on immigration because we've stuck our heads into the sand about these issues. If you want to see Britain resemble Poundland Japan, turning off immigration without economic reform is good way to go about it. Sadly a lot of mainstream political dialogue focuses on migrants rather than addressing the deeper structural economic problems of Britain.
We wouldn't be facing such high costs of illegal immigration if we hadn't voted to take back control of our borders. That caused boat crossings to skyrocket. Those "asylum seekers" are no longer the EU's problem. If Brexit voters had any sense of personal responsibly, they'd be picking up the hotel bills but instead it falls to mugs like me.

That’s such a weak response tbh. I have gone down no route, I’ve done my own research and come to this blindingly obvious conclusion myself.

The global fertility rate is 2.3, that’s just above replacement, driven mostly by places where education is very limited and therefore, they don’t make good immigrants. So, where will we steal people from when everywhere is in the same situation?

You don’t need government spending to stimulate economic growth; in fact, depending on the state of the economy, you can just crowd out private sector growth, you can cause inflation, it can be inefficient, it increases debt. The long and short of it is our economy is not in a position where increases in government spending will help.
Then there is the simple fact that immigration might give you some reprieve in the very short term (although in our case it hasn’t because it was done so badly) but it only makes all these issues worse in the long term. It is the ultimate example of kicking the can down the road, except the more you kick it the bigger the can gets.

It creates extra demand for things like housing, especially at the low end, which drives up house prices, which strengthens the economic drivers of fertility rate decline.

If these people are given ILR the OBR has said most of them are a net drain on the economy long term, which exacerbates the economic factors long term.

They don’t do anything for population stability in the long term because their fertility rates of drop as well, which only makes the ageing population issue even worse.

Yeah, we need to reform other areas of the economy as well, I don’t dispute that but endless immigration of generally unskilled labour has no real benefit to our country for our current situation. In fact, its making things considerably worse, not only economically but also socially.

Illegal immigration is a different thing altogether and yeah, its not Europe’s concern anymore but that’s doesn’t mean it’s the fault of Brexit. It’s the fault of our own government for making it far too comfy here, even Macron said the UK is like Shangri-La to these “asylum seekers” (see economic migrants) who come here because they get put in swanky hotels, given free medical care, free education, free stuff and more no questions asked. It’s the globalist humanist ideology held by our governments that’s been leading the failures in this area. No one who voted Brexit wanted that, hell I voted remain and I didn’t want that. Blaming Brexit for it is frankly like the Brexiters previously blaming the EU for every problem; it’s a scapegoat that doesn’t address the real problem which is our own systems (thanks to our governments having the aforementioned ideology) and our own participation in supranational conventions, treaties.

Reply 19

honestly i dont think slappin a tax on employers fixs anything. if a compnay needs people with skills they'll pay it or just pass the cost on. feels like another populist soundbite instead of actually investin in training and making britain attractive so ppl stay. blaming migrants aint gonna solve low productivity. my two cents tho

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