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Is studying medicine still worth it

Hi

My cousin is doing her A levels and she's worked so hard to get where she is now and continues to do so but when she told one of her teachers what she plans to study next she was told there's no point there's no guarantee after med school that you'll even get a place on Foundation training as a lot of graduates and doctors are finding themselves unemployed and now she's worried that's it'll all be for nothing if she can't get a place.

Is any of those true I thought doctors were definitely guaranteed a place on Foundation training and then you have to really work hard for a place on your chosen speciality?

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Reply 1

If she wants to study medicine, she should study medicine. They're already discussing changing how Foundation places work so things could be different by the time she gets there.

She also might find related things along the way that she prefers or wants to move to.

I'm not saying it's an easy decision, but trying to guess what a situation is going to be a few years down the road and then building your future on that guess, is just going to drive you crazy. If medicine is what she's passionate about right now and she really wants to learn that, then that's what she should go for.

Reply 2

Medicine might appear to be a 'glamourous' career or something that has big 'show-off' potential. Its actually a very tough, demanding degree - and an equally exhausting career. Many applicants are not very realistic about this.

Look at other courses, and other careers as well - you might find something that intrigues/interests you far more than just being a doctor :
Undergraduate | School of Cellular and Molecular Medicine | University of Bristol
Course Search | University of Leeds
Natural Sciences - Lancaster University

Reply 3

Original post
by McGinger
Medicine might appear to be a 'glamourous' career or something that has big 'show-off' potential. Its actually a very tough, demanding degree - and an equally exhausting career. Many applicants are not very realistic about this.
Look at other courses, and other careers as well - you might find something that intrigues/interests you far more than just being a doctor :
Undergraduate | School of Cellular and Molecular Medicine | University of Bristol
Course Search | University of Leeds
Natural Sciences - Lancaster University

Nothing interests her like medicine and she doesn't think it's a glamorous career either she knows fully well how hard this career is and she isn't doing it for the title doctor either medicine as a subject interests her more than any other she's doing it because she's passionate about it

Reply 4

A person entering medical school now should be sure of seeing long term employment readily because it will be 7 years until they are at the speciality training post application process.

I would urge more and more people entering medical school or those who have recently entered to strongly consider sitting USMLE and pursuing a career interest in North America where more than 50% of UK graduates are being accepted into residency and they get the chance to earn genuinely generational wealth.
Original post
by T&S
Hi
My cousin is doing her A levels and she's worked so hard to get where she is now and continues to do so but when she told one of her teachers what she plans to study next she was told there's no point there's no guarantee after med school that you'll even get a place on Foundation training as a lot of graduates and doctors are finding themselves unemployed and now she's worried that's it'll all be for nothing if she can't get a place.
Is any of those true I thought doctors were definitely guaranteed a place on Foundation training and then you have to really work hard for a place on your chosen speciality?

Regrettably, this is correct. The graduate prospects for medical graduates have drastically changed in recent years and you're not guaranteed jobs at the end of the degree anymore, nor training after the foundation years. The prospects have become rather bleak very quickly. Some people on this thread are hopeful that the situation will be fixed in a few years. The cynical in me thinks this is unlikely, but not impossible.

In any case, medicine was never an easy career to get into. There was always a considerable degree of passion overriding practical considerations when you pursue a career in medicine, there are just now more practical considerations that passion needs to override. If your cousin's passion still overrides this, then it'd be a pity for them to quit.

Reply 6

Original post
by Scotland Yard
Regrettably, this is correct. The graduate prospects for medical graduates have drastically changed in recent years and you're not guaranteed jobs at the end of the degree anymore, nor training after the foundation years. The prospects have become rather bleak very quickly. Some people on this thread are hopeful that the situation will be fixed in a few years. The cynical in me thinks this is unlikely, but not impossible.
In any case, medicine was never an easy career to get into. There was always a considerable degree of passion overriding practical considerations when you pursue a career in medicine, there are just now more practical considerations that passion needs to override. If your cousin's passion still overrides this, then it'd be a pity for them to quit.

The fact that someone now completes FY2 and then gets released is astounding. At the very least the successive governments should have made funds available to keep these doctors on at the same level as a FY2 doctor so that they are retained until they can eventually get a speciality training post. It does seem like the current funding model through NI is unworkable to address the financial black hole in NHS workforce funding.

Reply 7

Surely it is worth it on balance? Loads of graduates don't end up working in what they studied, and I assume, but don't know, that of lots of STEM degrees can get you jobs in other sectors then med is no different. Research and post grad study are both options as well. I know tha med is different from loads of degrees because it's sort of meant to lead to a certain place and that's why people study it, but that doesn't mean that because one isn't 100% guaranteed a career as a practicing doctor that they shouldn't study it, because they definitely won't become a practicing doctor if they don't.

Reply 8

For anyone contemplating studying medicine I would say that you need to be able to answer a very firm and solid 'yes' to two questions:

Question A

Do you have a genuine and very real desire to study every aspect of the human body and everything that modern medicine encompasses and follow this programme of study for a minimum of 5 years?

AND

Question B

Do you have a genuine desire to develop a career in medicine and actually work as a doctor?

I would say that answering yes to A is pretty much essential as your love of the course is what will sustain you through the long long years ahead.

Answering yes to B is not actually mandatory, but it would help with A.


If you want to study medicine due to:

Desire to earn big money

Desire of personal prestige

Desire to 'save' people


If any of the above applies to you, then I can promise that you will be extremely disappointed come the end of it, should you manage to actually obtain a place on the course and I would urge anyone in this position to strongly reconsider.

By starting a medical course, you are entering into the following arrangement:

Very real prospect of a minimum £50,000 worth of expenditure (or debt), for many students this will more likely be £100,000

5 years of your life committed prior to final qualification, with the promise of another 5 years on top (minimum) until you reach consultant level in general practice. This will be longer for the other specialties

A job where you could potentially be placed anywhere in the UK or have to move there following a training pathway. Believe me, I have worked in healthcare a fair while and I know of a lot of doctors, many of them hugely experienced registrars who are 30+ years old who have no option but to uproot their lives and follow their designated training placement

Significant out of hours, weekend or nights working hours commitment. This is not a 9-5 vocation, in fact, not that many consultants work purely office hours

Inability to work abroad in clinical practice unless F1 is completed- this will not apply to people who leave medicine after med school to work in finance, etc

Complete inability to work in North America unless either you have completed consultant training (CCT) OR have sat the USMLE Step exams


Unless you genuinely enjoy studying medicine and working with patients and their health, you are gonna be in for a bad time. It's that simple.

Reply 9

Original post
by Physician
The fact that someone now completes FY2 and then gets released is astounding. At the very least the successive governments should have made funds available to keep these doctors on at the same level as a FY2 doctor so that they are retained until they can eventually get a speciality training post. It does seem like the current funding model through NI is unworkable to address the financial black hole in NHS workforce funding.

The problem is overseas applicants (non-British citizens planning on immigrating) are allowed to apply for specialist training places on an equal basis to those in the UK. This is unlike other jobs where you can only consider an overseas applicant if there is not an appropriate British applicant. If only British-resident doctors were allowed to apply then there would be sufficient specialist training for nearly all; there were approximately 10,000 completing FY2 last year, around 10,000 training places… and about 20,000 overseas applicants. The BMA’s response is to say we need more training places to allow any overseas doctor who wishes to immigrate to come - they are not interested in protecting the rights of British-resident doctors, and certainly not the tax-payer who foots the bill for the specialist training as well as training the now-unemployed FY2 doctors (who also have considerable debts from their significant contribution to training costs in degree fees)

Reply 10

“5 years of your life committed prior to final qualification, with the promise of another 5 years on top(minimum) until you reach consultant level in general practice”

To be fair, there are very few careers where you get to the equivalent of ‘consultant level’ in less than ten years.

Reply 11

Original post
by FiBox
“5 years of your life committed prior to final qualification, with the promise of another 5 years on top(minimum) until you reach consultant level in general practice”
To be fair, there are very few careers where you get to the equivalent of ‘consultant level’ in less than ten years.


I'm not sure I would agree with that. I know plenty of people who earn more money than the average consultant might and it didn't take them 10 years to get there.

Reply 12

Original post
by ErasistratusV
I'm not sure I would agree with that. I know plenty of people who earn more money than the average consultant might and it didn't take them 10 years to get there.

Did they earn that money legally, or morally? Investment bankers like to stab each other in the back to get ahead.

Reply 13

Original post
by FiBox
“5 years of your life committed prior to final qualification, with the promise of another 5 years on top(minimum) until you reach consultant level in general practice”
To be fair, there are very few careers where you get to the equivalent of ‘consultant level’ in less than ten years.

Doctors have constantly gone on strike to get higher salaries, and the pot of money the government relies on from NI taxes has eventually run out. Doctors trained in the UK might complain that overseas doctors are taking their positions in speciality training, but that is exactly what UK trained medical graduates have been doing themselves in Australia and New Zealand for decades, by moving abroad for work. There needs to be a system where UK medical graduates have to spend at least several years in the NHS on a compulsory basis, in exchange for getting priority for speciality training places.

Reply 14

Original post
by Physician
Doctors have constantly gone on strike to get higher salaries, and the pot of money the government relies on from NI taxes has eventually run out. Doctors trained in the UK might complain that overseas doctors are taking their positions in speciality training, but that is exactly what UK trained medical graduates have been doing themselves in Australia and New Zealand for decades, by moving abroad for work. There needs to be a system where UK medical graduates have to spend at least several years in the NHS on a compulsory basis, in exchange for getting priority for speciality training places.

Australia and New Zealand have extremely strict immigration requirements. There is no chance thousands of Australian or New Zealand doctors are being left unemployed due to UK graduates moving there.

Reply 15

Original post
by Physician
Doctors have constantly gone on strike to get higher salaries, and the pot of money the government relies on from NI taxes has eventually run out. Doctors trained in the UK might complain that overseas doctors are taking their positions in speciality training, but that is exactly what UK trained medical graduates have been doing themselves in Australia and New Zealand for decades, by moving abroad for work. There needs to be a system where UK medical graduates have to spend at least several years in the NHS on a compulsory basis, in exchange for getting priority for speciality training places.

There is no way I am agreeing to being indentured service for the NHS thanks. In the main it treats it's workforce appallingly.

In no other country will a UK graduate be treated as an equal. Not in North America, not in New Zealand nor Australia. No UK graduate (nor any other non-indigenous graduate for that matter) will be given any priority over a domestic graduate in these countries. UK doctors do indeed emigrate to Australia etc for work, but they are left with the positions that domestic graduates simply do not wish to fill. This usually means working in far-flung locales or in less competitive specialties.

You categorically cannot even apply to speciality training in Australia unless you have permanent residency to reside there AND you will not be on a level footing with Australian graduates, you'll be second in line compared to them.

The main bonus of working in the Southern Hemisphere is that A the country and the people are epic (and the weather), B beautiful sun/climate and surfing and C you get paid a lot more for doing the same job. Also D non-NHS approach to healthcare (i.e. every thing they do isn't constrained by trying to run services on a shoe-string).

In North America, even if you completely ace the USMLE, don't be thinking you care going to get the pick of a neurosurgery job in Los Angeles for residency as a UK graduate. You won't. The majority of UK graduates applying there have to work very hard and network to get a residency and it won't be in the desirable specialty nor location when you do get one.

Lastly, I do not believe the BMA have any kind of trick up their sleeves that will significantly improve doctor's salaries for the duration of this parliament and probably well into the next one. The UK economy is lacklustre and our debt and spending is going to stay that way for some years I feel.

Reply 16

Original post
by Physician
Did they earn that money legally, or morally? Investment bankers like to stab each other in the back to get ahead.

No, I know plenty of people who work in far less spectacular jobs than investment banking and still earn 6 figures. You need to consider that doctor's salaries at all levels have remained pretty static for the last 20 years if not longer. They have not grown in line with the rest of the economy nor are they ever likely to.

As I have consistently said on this forum, if you are a UK medical graduate who wants to earn serious money and truly generational wealth then you need to be going to Australia or North America and I'd urge anyone starting now to seriously consider studying for the USMLE.

Reply 17

Original post
by ErasistratusV
There is no way I am agreeing to being indentured service for the NHS thanks. In the main it treats it's workforce appallingly.
In no other country will a UK graduate be treated as an equal. Not in North America, not in New Zealand nor Australia. No UK graduate (nor any other non-indigenous graduate for that matter) will be given any priority over a domestic graduate in these countries. UK doctors do indeed emigrate to Australia etc for work, but they are left with the positions that domestic graduates simply do not wish to fill. This usually means working in far-flung locales or in less competitive specialties.
You categorically cannot even apply to speciality training in Australia unless you have permanent residency to reside there AND you will not be on a level footing with Australian graduates, you'll be second in line compared to them.
The main bonus of working in the Southern Hemisphere is that A the country and the people are epic (and the weather), B beautiful sun/climate and surfing and C you get paid a lot more for doing the same job. Also D non-NHS approach to healthcare (i.e. every thing they do isn't constrained by trying to run services on a shoe-string).
In North America, even if you completely ace the USMLE, don't be thinking you care going to get the pick of a neurosurgery job in Los Angeles for residency as a UK graduate. You won't. The majority of UK graduates applying there have to work very hard and network to get a residency and it won't be in the desirable specialty nor location when you do get one.
Lastly, I do not believe the BMA have any kind of trick up their sleeves that will significantly improve doctor's salaries for the duration of this parliament and probably well into the next one. The UK economy is lacklustre and our debt and spending is going to stay that way for some years I feel.

What was the position on UK medical graduates working in Australia just before the pandemic in 2019? Was it possible to work in a nice hospital in Sydney? There was a nutter on my MSc course who emigrated to Sydney just before the pandemic hit, and works in a hospital there. No idea whether it was a permanent move or not, but l would guess that was the intention longer term.
(edited 1 month ago)

Reply 18

Original post
by Physician
What was the position on UK medical graduates working in Australia just before the pandemic in 2019? Was it possible to work in a nice hospital in Sydney? There was a nutter on my MSc course who emigrated to Sydney just before the pandemic hit, and works in a hospital there. No idea whether it was a permanent move or not, but l would guess that was the intention longer term.

I am not sure but people have been travelling to Australia to practice there or even complete their training there for some years. I know people who have done precisely this. I know people who complete training in full and then return to the UK as consultants.

Reply 19

Original post
by ErasistratusV
For anyone contemplating studying medicine I would say that you need to be able to answer a very firm and solid 'yes' to two questions:
Question A
Do you have a genuine and very real desire to study every aspect of the human body and everything that modern medicine encompasses and follow this programme of study for a minimum of 5 years?
AND
Question B
Do you have a genuine desire to develop a career in medicine and actually work as a doctor?
I would say that answering yes to A is pretty much essential as your love of the course is what will sustain you through the long long years ahead.
Answering yes to B is not actually mandatory, but it would help with A.
If you want to study medicine due to:

Desire to earn big money

Desire of personal prestige

Desire to 'save' people


If any of the above applies to you, then I can promise that you will be extremely disappointed come the end of it, should you manage to actually obtain a place on the course and I would urge anyone in this position to strongly reconsider.
By starting a medical course, you are entering into the following arrangement:

Very real prospect of a minimum £50,000 worth of expenditure (or debt), for many students this will more likely be £100,000

5 years of your life committed prior to final qualification, with the promise of another 5 years on top (minimum) until you reach consultant level in general practice. This will be longer for the other specialties

A job where you could potentially be placed anywhere in the UK or have to move there following a training pathway. Believe me, I have worked in healthcare a fair while and I know of a lot of doctors, many of them hugely experienced registrars who are 30+ years old who have no option but to uproot their lives and follow their designated training placement

Significant out of hours, weekend or nights working hours commitment. This is not a 9-5 vocation, in fact, not that many consultants work purely office hours

Inability to work abroad in clinical practice unless F1 is completed- this will not apply to people who leave medicine after med school to work in finance, etc

Complete inability to work in North America unless either you have completed consultant training (CCT) OR have sat the USMLE Step exams


Unless you genuinely enjoy studying medicine and working with patients and their health, you are gonna be in for a bad time. It's that simple.

Thank you for this , I spoke to her about all the replies and she has decided to not follow her dream and now will look for something else she can be somewhat happy in.

She answered Yes to Both of your questions but as she read the rest of your reply she said that moving around for training will be an issue due to medical reasons she is unable to move house as she has special needs medically and her house is adapted for her ( I don't want to disclose her medical reasons) it wouldn't stop her from being a doctor but she has a medical need that requires special equipment at home and it's not easy to just move it either.

Having to stick to her local area will drastically limit her chances of training places especially now when it's hard to get training places in the first place.

She has no idea what she wants to do now as medicine was everything to her but she knows now she won't be able to do it so she will try to find something she'll like.

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