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Bad Teacher Reference

My stats and stuff are good (4 a star, 9 9s).

But, in my reference, my maths teacher said I rank into the top 30% of the cohort. My cohort only gets about 20-25% a star on avg.

Im applying for econ at Oxford (EnM), Warwick, UCL, Imperial and LSE Management.

Will this reference and terrible ranking disadvantage me, and to what extent, as Im sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10% or something like that.

I feel like my chances just dropped drastically... Any opinions are greatly appreciated

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Reply 1

Original post
by Xylos
My stats and stuff are good (4 a star, 9 9s).
But, in my reference, my maths teacher said I rank into the top 30% of the cohort. My cohort only gets about 20-25% a star on avg.
Im applying for econ at Oxford (EnM), Warwick, UCL, Imperial and LSE Management.
Will this reference and terrible ranking disadvantage me, and to what extent, as Im sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10% or something like that.
I feel like my chances just dropped drastically... Any opinions are greatly appreciated

Doesn't that depend on your school?

Top 10% in a comp is not the same as top 10% in a selective school.

UCAS refs don't normally include such phrases - I've written hundreds - most schools also keep contents confidential.
Position in cohort tends to be a thing international referees drop in. In my experience it’s not terribly useful and not something UK selectors will be relying on.

Reply 3

As above - it doesnt actually stand up to much scrutiny. If everyone at your school gets A* grades then your position would be very different from one where most get lower grades - which doesn't tell any Uni anything useful about you. Looks like a teacher trying to be 'clever' to me - and most University staff will have the common-sense to just ignore it. Worry about something else.

Reply 4

Original post
by McGinger
As above - it doesnt actually stand up to much scrutiny. If everyone at your school gets A* grades then your position would be very different from one where most get lower grades - which doesn't tell any Uni anything useful about you. Looks like a teacher trying to be 'clever' to me - and most University staff will have the common-sense to just ignore it. Worry about something else.

So would it be fair to say that it’s not going to help me, whereas a top 5 or whatever could.

But at the same time, it won’t be a large thing holding me back and probably not the thing that leads to a rejection?

Reply 5

Original post
by Muttley79
Doesn't that depend on your school?
Top 10% in a comp is not the same as top 10% in a selective school.
UCAS refs don't normally include such phrases - I've written hundreds - most schools also keep contents confidential.

We get shown our reference, it said i was in top 30% despite joining late…

Simply, do you think this could be a reason that culminates towards a possible rejection, so does this really hold me back. Or am I just missing out on the potential benefit of having a top 5 or top 3. I hope I worded that in a way that makes it easy to understand

Reply 6

Original post
by Xylos
We get shown our reference, it said i was in top 30% despite joining late…
Simply, do you think this could be a reason that culminates towards a possible rejection, so does this really hold me back. Or am I just missing out on the potential benefit of having a top 5 or top 3. I hope I worded that in a way that makes it easy to understand

What sort of school is it? Yes I know you said 30% but I was making the point as it's totally useless information to a universtiy.

No way would I be writing a comment like that nor would any teacher in the three schools I've taught in.

I would ask why it's relevant!

Reply 7

Original post
by Muttley79
What sort of school is it? Yes I know you said 30% but I was making the point as it's totally useless information to a universtiy.
No way would I be writing a comment like that nor would any teacher in the three schools I've taught in.
I would ask why it's relevant!

Its a gramma rschool, decently high attainment. In maths around 20% get A*s. I have always thought that putting a students rankings is fairly normal?

Reply 8

Original post
by Xylos
Its a gramma rschool, decently high attainment. In maths around 20% get A*s. I have always thought that putting a students rankings is fairly normal?

No it certainly isn't - even the broadest ability Bucks Grammars take the top 30% so you are in the top third of that. Crazy comment and as @Admit-One says [they work in admissions], 'not terribly useful'.
Original post
by Xylos
My stats and stuff are good (4 a star, 9 9s).

But, in my reference, my maths teacher said I rank into the top 30% of the cohort. My cohort only gets about 20-25% a star on avg.

Im applying for econ at Oxford (EnM), Warwick, UCL, Imperial and LSE Management.

Will this reference and terrible ranking disadvantage me, and to what extent, as Im sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10% or something like that.

I feel like my chances just dropped drastically... Any opinions are greatly appreciated

1) That is not a terrible ranking.
2) I can't imagine any admissions tutor has access to your cohort's average data - the school's historical data possibly, but I can't imagine they would find the time to go and look it up. Your referee enters a predicted grade, half a sentence in the UCAS reference doesn't replace that.
3) "I'm sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10%" - stop being sure, you have no idea what any other application says.

Reply 10

Original post
by 04MR17
1) That is not a terrible ranking.
2) I can't imagine any admissions tutor has access to your cohort's average data - the school's historical data possibly, but I can't imagine they would find the time to go and look it up. Your referee enters a predicted grade, half a sentence in the UCAS reference doesn't replace that.
3) "I'm sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10%" - stop being sure, you have no idea what any other application says.

Yeah honestly it’s just a case where the people around me are ranked top 10, 10% etc and they are applying to the same stuff as me, with the same stats bar the reference ranking. So in my small picture of the applicant pool, I feel quite disadvantaged. You are right, that doesn’t reflect the general applicant level.

As an aside, do you think top 15 would be seen or differentiated from top 33%. Or would an admissions tutor most likely realise that top 33% would equal to around 15 people if the cohort size for 50 and etc.

Reply 11

Original post
by 04MR17
1) That is not a terrible ranking.
2) I can't imagine any admissions tutor has access to your cohort's average data - the school's historical data possibly, but I can't imagine they would find the time to go and look it up. Your referee enters a predicted grade, half a sentence in the UCAS reference doesn't replace that.
3) "I'm sure the other applicants will at least have a top 10%" - stop being sure, you have no idea what any other application says.

Cohort data is on DfE performance tables, so is freely available - but the comment is not something sensible to include.

Reply 12

Original post
by Xylos
Yeah honestly it’s just a case where the people around me are ranked top 10, 10% etc and they are applying to the same stuff as me, with the same stats bar the reference ranking. So in my small picture of the applicant pool, I feel quite disadvantaged. You are right, that doesn’t reflect the general applicant level.
As an aside, do you think top 15 would be seen or differentiated from top 33%. Or would an admissions tutor most likely realise that top 33% would equal to around 15 people if the cohort size for 50 and etc.

That part of the reference will be totally ignored! A reference should b about YOU not your cohort.

Reply 13

Original post
by Muttley79
That part of the reference will be totally ignored! A reference should b about YOU not your cohort.
Wait am I typing it wrong.

It is about my performance in the context of my cohort.

So I am in the top 30% of my cohort.

I’m pretty sure you know what I mean but just in case I worded it poorly previsouly

Reply 14

Original post
by Xylos
Wait am I typing it wrong.
It is about my performance in the context of my cohort.
So I am in the top 30% of my cohort.
I’m pretty sure you know what I mean but just in case I worded it poorly previsouly

Yes and that information is worthless - the teaacher should be talking about YOU and your ability not other people - it's poor practice!

Reply 15

Original post
by Muttley79
Yes and that information is worthless - the teaacher should be talking about YOU and your ability not other people - it's poor practice!

Ahh okay. He did also mention a few good tests
Original post
by Muttley79
Cohort data is on DfE performance tables, so is freely available - but the comment is not something sensible to include.


Per subject?
As this is a subject teacher comment?
So it's that students maths cohort, the current Y13 Maths. That's on DfE?
I'm not aware of my A Level History group data being on DfE. There's less than 10 students in my class.
Original post
by Xylos
Yeah honestly it’s just a case where the people around me are ranked top 10, 10% etc and they are applying to the same stuff as me, with the same stats bar the reference ranking. So in my small picture of the applicant pool, I feel quite disadvantaged. You are right, that doesn’t reflect the general applicant level.
As an aside, do you think top 15 would be seen or differentiated from top 33%. Or would an admissions tutor most likely realise that top 33% would equal to around 15 people if the cohort size for 50 and etc.


An admissions tutor would be looking at the predicted grade to estimate the level you are working at and would read the reference to understand some more about your work ethic and overall character.

An admissions tutor doesn't use the reference to modify the predicted grades that have been entered.

You also have no control over changing the reference. So now you need to move on mentally, otherwise this trivial half a sentence is going to eat away at you and distract you from the more important work of bossing your A Levels.

Reply 18

The reference probably won’t even get read, calm down.

Reply 19

Original post
by 04MR17
Per subject?
As this is a subject teacher comment?
So it's that students maths cohort, the current Y13 Maths. That's on DfE?
I'm not aware of my A Level History group data being on DfE. There's less than 10 students in my class.

It would be GCSE data as they haven't sat A levels yet.

You can see Ebacc progress 8 and attainment 8 - many schools publish results on their website too.

Can see Ebacc additional measures drilled down to Humanities for example.

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