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And, after a comma - acceptable or not?

I really was hoping to buy a cat, but there is so much expense, and then i have to consider where to put the darn thing.

See above for an example.

Can one use and after a comma or is this not good practice? I'm more concerned with the official line than the 'well, it's OK to break the rules' response.

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Reply 2
Just leave out the and.

The first comma goes after 'but'
Reply 3
I have always seen it as acceptable. I think the "rule" about not having 'and' after a comma is for lists, and even then I think it's acceptable.
Reply 4
who gives a **** about an oxford comma!
(i'm no being rude...tis one of my favorite songs :smile: )
Think so, pretend it's speech - "but there is so much expense... and then i have to". Sounds ok to me.
Reply 6
I do that all the time, even with lists. If you don't do it in a list, it looks like the final two things are sort of one complete item.
Reply 7
It's not standard punctuation, no. In standard punctuation of a list divided by commas, you leave out the comma and put 'and' as the final item, so it should be like this:

'I really was hoping to buy a cat, but there is so much expense and then i have to consider where to put the darn thing.'

The word 'and' is a conjunction i.e. it connects one part of the text with another- it connects the rest of the list with the final part of the list.
Reply 8
jmj
It's not standard punctuation, no. In standard punctuation of a list divided by commas, you leave out the comma and put 'and' as the final item, so it should be like this:

'I really was hoping to buy a cat, but there is so much expense and then i have to consider where to put the darn thing.'

The word 'and' is a conjunction i.e. it connects one part of the text with another- it connects the rest of the list with the final part of the list.


What do you mean by "standard"? The Oxford comma is fairly commonplace I thought.
In lists, no, it's not usually considered acceptable.

e.g. you'd say 'Red, green and blue' not 'Red, green, and blue'. Both are technically correct, but the former is far more acceptable.

Lists where some items have their own commas or are particularly long should be separated by semi-colons.

e.g. 'I took several things with me: a pen, which I had received from my late grandfather; a small leather satchel filled with torn up pieces of paper; a large book, complete with bookmark; and a bottle of water.'

This prevents confusion.

In your example, eliminating the comma would be okay, but equally there is a kind of a natural pause there, and since both 'items' in your list of reasons are fairly long, so you could get away with not using it.

There's no definite rule on it, I'm afraid, you just use your own initiative.
Reply 10
This.
Reply 11
thecaterpillar
In lists, no, it's not usually considered acceptable.

e.g. you'd say 'Red, green and blue' not 'Red, green, and blue'. Both are technically correct, but the former is far more acceptable.


Lists where some items have their own commas or are particularly long should be separated by semi-colons.

e.g. 'I took several things with me: a pen, which I had received from my late grandfather; a small leather satchel filled with torn up pieces of paper; a large book, complete with bookmark; and a bottle of water.'

This prevents confusion.

In your example, eliminating the comma would be okay, but equally there is a kind of a natural pause there, and since both 'items' in your list of reasons are fairly long, so you could get away with not using it.

There's no definite rule on it, I'm afraid, you just use your own initiative.


To be honest, reading those examples I prefer the second, seems easier to read IMO.

Rules are made to be broken, just put whatever sounds best/looks best for the context - there's no point in sticking to rigid rules, go with what you feel like the best option is :smile:.
beesbees
To be honest, reading those examples I prefer the second, seems easier to read IMO.


With a list like that, you would definitely not use a serial comma whether or not you 'prefer' it, it is widely held to be incorrect ;p
thecaterpillar
With a list like that, you would definitely not use a serial comma whether or not you 'prefer' it, it is widely held to be incorrect ;p

It does remove ambiguity though.
alex_hk90
It does remove ambiguity though.


In that example, there is no ambiguity. The Oxford Style and Writing guide states that it should not be used unless there is some possible confusion about the meaning.

Red, green and blue is definitely just a list of three colours. 'Red', 'green and blue' as two separate items makes no sense.

If you had something like:

'The rooms in my house are decorated in many different colours - red, yellow and blue, orange, green and yellow, and magnolia and purple.'

then you need the comma.
thecaterpillar
In that example, there is no ambiguity. The Oxford Style and Writing guide states that it should not be used unless there is some possible confusion about the meaning.

Red, green and blue is definitely just a list of three colours. 'Red', 'green and blue' as two separate items makes no sense.

If you had something like:

'The rooms in my house are decorated in many different colours - red, yellow and blue, orange, green and yellow, and magnolia and purple.'

then you need the comma.

If you're going to have it in the second case, surely there's no harm in having it in the first case in order to maintain consistency?
alex_hk90
If you're going to have it in the second case, surely there's no harm in having it in the first case in order to maintain consistency?


This is what several authorities on British English have said - it's acceptable where there is some ambiguity, but if the meaning of the sentence is clear, it's not. In the second example, it's possible to misinterpret, although the example is a pretty poor one because I just made it up. xD

From the wikipedia article:

'Betty, a maid and a rabbit.'

There is ambiguity in this sentence because it's unclear whether you're talking about two people - Betty and a maid and a rabbit, or Betty, who is a maid, as well as a rabbit (and we're ignoring possible implication that Betty could be both a maid and a rabbit because that is just silly).

If you meant Betty is a maid, you'd put:

'Betty, a maid, and a rabbit.'

to clarify.

But, if you were talking about three separate entities, it would just be 'Betty, a maid and a rabbit'.

In the unlikely event that Betty was in fact a maid AND a rabbit, 'Betty - a maid and a rabbit' would be better.

If there is no ambiguity at all, and the list is of three or more items, as in the 'Red, green and blue' example, there should be no comma in British English.
Reply 17
i think "I really was hoping..." should be "I was really hoping..."
Reply 18
Who gives a :santa2::santa2::santa2::santa2: ?

That kind of punctuation is generally used in lists.
Reply 19
DaveJ
What do you mean by "standard"? The Oxford comma is fairly commonplace I thought.


I'm sure it is very common :smile: By standard, I mean official punctuation; what you'd find in a dictionary. I use the distinction of standard and non-standard rather than saying proper/improper or right/wrong, as other people using things differently doesn't make them 'wrong' etc.

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