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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    I'm not suggesting that persons cannot have different roles and still be equally valued (although society has major gender- and class-based problems with this - often female contributions are undervalued, as are typically lower class professions, art forms, speech patterns, leisure pursuits etc). What I am saying is that I see no reason to assign the role of leadership to men. I also don't understand what you mean about races - I do not think that different races have different cultural functions to perform. If you simply mean that different cultural behaviours can be equally valuable then I'd agree.

    I think you're reading a bit too much into a word like 'therefore'. The verse just says that 'the man' should not be alone, and should have someone to help him 'work [the garden] and take care of it'. I think reading in authority or leadership is a bit tenuous.

    The idea that Eve is somehow more guilty than Adam is a bit weird. In the text it says that Adam 'was with her'. He stood on, clearly encouraging Eve, not rebuking the serpent. To claim that he just passively ate some fruit is unbiblical. He clearly also desired it.

    About the curses - I really, really struggle to see why anyone would think that they are prescriptive. As I've said (and so has someone else), if we think that this is protective, then why aren't we denying women pain-relief in childbirth, or ensuring that men are doing back-breaking manual labour? Why aren't these equally put there to protect against sin?

    As for submission - where in the Bible are you getting the difference in submissions from? It just isn't there. Women are taught to submit to their husbands in exactly the same way that all believers are taught to submit to one another. There is no biblical difference.

    If Adam is the natural guardian of Eve because she was made from his side, then dust is the natural guardian of Adam! It just doesn't make sense to say 'made from = guarded by. I don't see the logical inference.
    Sin was brought into the world because Adam listened to his wife and because his wife had listened to the Serpent. God punished Adam and Eve by expelling them from Eden but He also told them how to avoid such sin in future: Adam should not listen to his wife's recommendations. Corinthians 11:3:

    "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

    Adam desired the forbidden fruit because his wife had encouraged him to eat it: "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband."

    Men should bear the burden of being breadwinners for their wife and family, but this does not specifically mean 'physical' labour. If God gave women sorrow in childbirth then we should put His pleasure and satisfaction above our own. For, is it not true that we are closer to Christ when we are persecuted and when we suffer?
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    I know what you mean. I remember around this time last year breaking down in one of my Finals exams and wondering why the hell I was doing this to myself :hugs: Do PM anytime you feel the need to

    Oooh, that's very exciting about the retreat! Hopefully it will be soothing and beneficial for you I think a week of silence, once I'm better, could do me a lot of good... or at least be very telling! :yes:
    Thank you. : ) Sorry you felt the stress so much, too! I think I'm partly wound up at the moment seeing all the finalists going so mental, and knowing that that's going to be me next year. Ohhhh dear...

    And yeah, I think it will be difficult, but it should be good! Did you ever see that BBC show on silent retreats - The Big Silence?


    (Original post by Alex-jc123)
    How things 'were'? The New Testament follows up on Genesis:

    Corinthians 11:3: "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

    There are countless other statements like this in the Bible supporting a peaceful and less important role for women. Galatians 3:28 is authority for us all being equal in receiving salvation and coming to Christ our Lord, not an end to the social order established by God. If Christ wanted to show that women were of the exact same roles as men then He would have had female Apostles. The reason why sin and destruction were brought into the world was because Adam listened to his wife. Therefore, God commanded that Adam have a leading role over his wife to ensure that further sin would not befall them.
    I think we have very different ideas about what the role of the Bible is - I don't, for example, think that sin came into the world due to literal events happening as they are described in Genesis 2 and 3 - and so, like I said, I don't think we're going to agree. Nevertheless, I'll repeat my point that all of the Bible (including the New Testament) was written in a patriarchal culture that stretched across the globe, and therefore to reinterpret the Bible in light of a better understanding of gender roles (or, indeed, of their insignificance in any sense), is not disregarding the Bible or treating it disrespectfully.


    (Original post by Alex-jc123)
    Genesis 3:17-19 does not specifically refer to 'manual' labour; it establishes the idea of the husband being the breadwinner or chief worker. It is man's burden to 'sweat' (a word not just used in a physical sense) to provide/protect his wife and family. Although the husband should be expected to do physical labours in supporting his wife. For example, he should implement heavy lifting and repairing duties.

    I believe there is still pain in child birth with an epidural. God's pleasure and satisfaction must come before our own.
    Yes, but many women experience relatively little. Many have caesarians, too. And with regards to your comment about Genesis 3:17-19 - well, just as one example, v. 17 says "in toil you shall eat of [the ground] all the days of your life". That's just as explicit as any of the other judgements.


    (Incidentally, if it was you who neg repped my last post: I'm trying not to come across disrespectfully - as far as I'm concerned, it's a brotherly/sisterly debate...)
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    (Original post by Lantana)
    It just doesn't make sense in my brain. I get confused with what desiccates and what does what and goes where. I'll let you know if I have any specific questions though.
    Might be a naive question but have you made a diagram with them all on? That can be really helpful if you haven't already. But yeah, lemme know anything you particularly don't get.
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    (Original post by marille)
    Thank you. : ) Sorry you felt the stress so much, too! I think I'm partly wound up at the moment seeing all the finalists going so mental, and knowing that that's going to be me next year. Ohhhh dear...

    And yeah, I think it will be difficult, but it should be good! Did you ever see that BBC show on silent retreats - The Big Silence?
    You're at Oxford, right? Or did I imagine that? Don't look at the Finalists: the trick is not to get The Fear. And the trick to that is either being so bonkers that The Fear is not on your mind (my default strategy - not recommended!) or developing your very own Patronus (my other strategy: far healthier and very soothing)

    I didn't know it was on I bought a book relating to it about Ignatian spirituality, which someone on here (probs you? ) recommended
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    (Original post by marille)
    Thank you. : ) Sorry you felt the stress so much, too! I think I'm partly wound up at the moment seeing all the finalists going so mental, and knowing that that's going to be me next year. Ohhhh dear...

    And yeah, I think it will be difficult, but it should be good! Did you ever see that BBC show on silent retreats - The Big Silence?




    I think we have very different ideas about what the role of the Bible is - I don't, for example, think that sin came into the world due to literal events happening as they are described in Genesis 2 and 3 - and so, like I said, I don't think we're going to agree. Nevertheless, I'll repeat my point that all of the Bible (including the New Testament) was written in a patriarchal culture that stretched across the globe, and therefore to reinterpret the Bible in light of a better understanding of gender roles (or, indeed, of their insignificance in any sense), is not disregarding the Bible or treating it disrespectfully.




    Yes, but many women experience relatively little. Many have caesarians, too. And with regards to your comment about Genesis 3:17-19 - well, just as one example, v. 17 says "in toil you shall eat of [the ground] all the days of your life". That's just as explicit as any of the other judgements.


    (Incidentally, if it was you who neg repped my last post: I'm trying not to come across disrespectfully - as far as I'm concerned, it's a brotherly/sisterly debate...)
    Understood. I believe that a man should do all (or as much as they can) of the physical labour involved in maintaining a household and protecting his wife, which covers the burden of manual labour. Although, as you say, we have different ideas so we should bury our disagreements and embrace St. Paul's advocacy of unity amongst Christians stated in Corinthians 1.

    I do not understand nor approve of the 'rep' system so I can assure you it was not me who negged you.
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    You're at Oxford, right? Or did I imagine that? Don't look at the Finalists: the trick is not to get The Fear. And the trick to that is either being so bonkers that The Fear is not on your mind (my default strategy - not recommended!) or developing your very own Patronus (my other strategy: far healthier and very soothing)

    I didn't know it was on I bought a book relating to it about Ignatian spirituality, which someone on here (probs you? ) recommended
    Yep, I am. (I used to be on TSR under a different name - Standing**On**Air, without the stars - until I found out that my tutor stalks people on here and was mentioning personal issues I'd discussed with other people ... he's not mean - just clueless, apparently. But either way, I don't want to touch the Oxford subforum anymore. :p: ) I'm trying to ignore the finalists, but I know too many! What do you mean by developing a Patronus (other than through the obvious Expecto Patronum)?

    And yes, I think it may have been me. : D Have you had a look at it?


    (Original post by Alex-jc123)
    Although, as you say, we have different ideas so we should bury our disagreements and embrace St. Paul's advocacy of unity amongst Christians stated in Corinthians 1.
    Hooray for Christian unity. :woo:
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    (Original post by Tzarchasm)
    I applied to study medicine. Had an interview at Barts and the London but they obviously thought I was poop.
    :console:

    Whats the plan then?


    PS: I didn't know that God willing was insahallah in Arabic? Learn something new everyday.
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    (Original post by Alex-jc123)
    Sin was brought into the world because Adam listened to his wife and because his wife had listened to the Serpent. God punished Adam and Eve by expelling them from Eden but He also told them how to avoid such sin in future: Adam should not listen to his wife's recommendations. Corinthians 11:3:

    "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

    Adam desired the forbidden fruit because his wife had encouraged him to eat it: "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband."

    Men should bear the burden of being breadwinners for their wife and family, but this does not specifically mean 'physical' labour. If God gave women sorrow in childbirth then we should put His pleasure and satisfaction above our own. For, is it not true that we are closer to Christ when we are persecuted and when we suffer?
    But as I said, it wasn't just that Adam 'listened to Eve'. Adam was there, accepting what the serpent said. He was every bit as guilty as Eve. It is not as though she deceived him.

    The lesson from this clearly is not that men should no longer listen to women. That's a fairly outrageous suggestion... What he told them in the future was that they would be under a curse. These curses are patently undesirable. The Biblical ideal is clearly portrayed as being the pre-Fall situation. To suggest that the curses are normative just seems bizarre. But if man ruling over women is the result of the Fall, then the balance is restored by Christ (Romans 5:12-). The very presence of the curse suggests that Adam did not rule over Eve in any way in the garden, and it is to this relationship of equality that we now strive, thanks to Christ's triumph over sin. It seems that whatever 'headship' means (it is far from obvious), it does not mean 'authority over'.
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    (Original post by marille)
    Yep, I am. (I used to be on TSR under a different name - Standing**On**Air, without the stars - until I found out that my tutor stalks people on here and was mentioning personal issues I'd discussed with other people ... he's not mean - just clueless, apparently.
    But now your tutor could find out your new name! A tutor at my college found out from here that someone else had been drunk/hungover at interview...
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    (Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
    But now your tutor could find out your new name! A tutor at my college found out from here that someone else had been drunk/hungover at interview...
    Hahah, did they get in? And hopefully he won't - I don't post in the Oxford bit anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's the only bit he looks at... XD
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    (Original post by marille)
    Hahah, did they get in? And hopefully he won't - I don't post in the Oxford bit anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's the only bit he looks at... XD
    He did, although I think the tutor only found out after he'd been accepted. He decided to comment on it when welcoming the new students though
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    (Original post by marille)
    Yep, I am. (I used to be on TSR under a different name - Standing**On**Air, without the stars - until I found out that my tutor stalks people on here and was mentioning personal issues I'd discussed with other people ... he's not mean - just clueless, apparently. But either way, I don't want to touch the Oxford subforum anymore. :p: ) I'm trying to ignore the finalists, but I know too many! What do you mean by developing a Patronus (other than through the obvious Expecto Patronum)?

    And yes, I think it may have been me. : D Have you had a look at it?
    Oh dear, that's no good at all. There's a Woosta tutor on here but he doesn't know me, so it's all good! I understand why you'd not want to touch it: that sounds horrible for you :console:

    I mean the idea of having a protective force that comes between you and The Fear and that protects you from it/drives The Fear away. I never got The Fear: partly due to being too out of it to get it, but also because I felt a metaphysical protective force shielding me from The Fear, which I identified as my mother figure. It's all about surrounding yourself with comforting things that will keep you sane
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    Just as Adam is held responsible for the sin in the garden, so also Christ was held responsible for our sin.
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    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
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    (Original post by sparklysparkles)
    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
    I love him! I've grown so much from his audio sermons.
    In the middle of reading "Think" right now, all about how Christians should be thinkers, and how we can use our brains to glorify God.

    What do you think of Francis Chan?
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    (Original post by sparklysparkles)
    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
    You need to do some vegan baking on your blog
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    Did anyone see Terry Pratchett's programme on assisted dying?
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    (Original post by sparklysparkles)
    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
    I had a look through some of those books and found this:

    (Original post by John Piper)
    It is true that there is something sexually
    stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club.
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    (Original post by sparklysparkles)
    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
    Just curious... why do you think that? I don't know anything about John Piper...
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    (Original post by sparklysparkles)
    I have a feeling, possibly wrong, that many people here won't be massive fans of John Piper, but I discovered today that most of his books are available free online from desiringGod - quite a helpful resource, particularly if you've got an ereader!
    I got really excited, as I got mixed up between him and Josef Pieper...
 
 
 
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