TSR Christian Society Watch

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Tzarchasm
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#4561
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#4561
(Original post by Facticity)
Errm I'd like to know what people here think of non-Christian friendships and non-Christian relationships and perhaps any passages from the Bible.

I have some very close friends who are non-Christian but its never really been an issue and they've always respected my faith to the point of coming to church with me and listening to me ramble for ages about all kinds of Christianity related things. I've known them for ages and I have never had any issues with them - however obviously as we get older the obvious differences in our world views and lifestyles show - its much more noticeable. I was just wondering what people think about non-Christian friends and our relationships with them. I have been told they should be restricted by some, which I didn't really like but at the same time I can see the influence that they could have and the difference between us. I am unsure as to this matter - I don't want to limit my friendships however it is harder to meld as we act and think differently especially at our ages. Just to clarify, this isn't me having any arguments with them, just my general observations and thoughts.

And the other questions was in regards to having non-Christian partners. This isn't too particular, rather I am just generally wondering. Thanks.
Our Lord asked us to love our enemies. How are we supposed to love our enemies if we can't even befriend people of other faiths or a lack of faith because of this very difference (never mind that Jesus spent a lot of time with gentiles). Thus, I believe, there should be no restriction with whom we befriend.

I'm curious to what these differences are?
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greeneyedgirl
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(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Can I have some extra prayers over the next few days please? I'm trying to write out my experiences for a priest I'm seeing on Wednesday but there's a mental block that I need to get rid of first
Multiple prayers for you!

(Original post by Facticity)
Haha But I'm not that clever, just a guy who reads and stuff

Thank you though, we are all blessed with different gifts of course! :jumphug:

In other news though, not feeling too great lately and some family issues are coming up. Would appreciate any prayer
Of course shall be praying

(Original post by Facticity)
Errm I'd like to know what people here think of non-Christian friendships and non-Christian relationships and perhaps any passages from the Bible.

I have some very close friends who are non-Christian but its never really been an issue and they've always respected my faith to the point of coming to church with me and listening to me ramble for ages about all kinds of Christianity related things. I've known them for ages and I have never had any issues with them - however obviously as we get older the obvious differences in our world views and lifestyles show - its much more noticeable. I was just wondering what people think about non-Christian friends and our relationships with them. I have been told they should be restricted by some, which I didn't really like but at the same time I can see the influence that they could have and the difference between us. I am unsure as to this matter - I don't want to limit my friendships however it is harder to meld as we act and think differently especially at our ages. Just to clarify, this isn't me having any arguments with them, just my general observations and thoughts.

And the other questions was in regards to having non-Christian partners. This isn't too particular, rather I am just generally wondering. Thanks.
Right...this is a subject I feel is rather close to home for me so here goes:

At uni 90% of my friends are non Christians. First term, yeah I let them lead me astray a bit...nothing stupidly bad, but going out and drinking in order to get drunk and not remember the night, getting with multiple guys, that kinda thing (nothing I'm proud of, but nothing I would be too ashamed to admit to either). But then I had one of those moments where I was just like "ARGH should not be living that way" and since then I have tried to not get drunk, and since lent I haven't been drunk, perhaps tipsy twice, but never drunk, my attitude on a night out has changed, my friends all noticed (especially in lent when I limited myself to 3 units a night (less than 1/6th of what I'd normally get through) and some nights didn't even drink). So I guess I've learnt how Christianity can co-exist peacefully with going out clubbing (which tbh I love doing, I love dancing, being with my friends and listening to some great music). While my friends do respect my beliefs fully, there are times when unintentionally they will try to lead me astray (some of my less close friends in particular find it almost offensive that I won't have sex and assume I'm judging them!) But actually without being friends with these non-Christians, my friends who came along to my Christian play wouldn't have seen that, many of them would have no Christian influence in their lives. While obviously not every conversation is about God, it gives me opportunities to talk to them about Christianity, and some of them seem really keen to know more. In a way, my friendship with them is an evangelism of sorts.

With regards to non-Christians in dating, oddly I've found the bf who led me furthest astray claimed to be a Christian. However in general I find it very hard to find any boy willing to date me due to no sex (or at least since sixth form it's become more of a problem, and at uni is practically impossible) so erm I don't know. Ideally I would date a Christian. But in reality, there are more females who are Christians than males, so who knows. It's certainly easier (at least for marriage) to marry a Christian because of bringing up kids in faith etc, but it's not always a possibility!

Sorry that was long and probably makes no sense.
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+ polarity -
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#4563
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#4563
I don't think anyone at uni even knows I am a Christian. I have hidden everything so well :emo:
LoveLoveLove16
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Hi everyone, I recently became born again, a couple of months ago, but i just feel it's so difficult not to sin being a teenager especially in today's society and I keep getting down about how i behave, it's not majorly bad but I just don't want to disappoint God but because I have lived a sinful way before I was saved i find it difficult to overcome old habits. Help?
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Calumcalum
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(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
Hi everyone, I recently became born again, a couple of months ago, but i just feel it's so difficult not to sin being a teenager especially in today's society and I keep getting down about how i behave, it's not majorly bad but I just don't want to disappoint God but because I have lived a sinful way before I was saved i find it difficult to overcome old habits. Help?
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the stuff about habits - I think a lot of people have a mentality where their Christian living is just about waiting till a pretty serious situation comes along and then mustering the willpower to overcome it in the right way - actually, I think there's a massive role for building habits and building our characters. We have to think carefully about the little things and hope that the collection of these gives us the character to carry on do the right thing when it comes to more serious stuff. So, for example, if someone struggled with lots of sexual relationships before they were a Christian, they might think it's OK to keep flirting with more people, or to evaluate the people around them in terms of their sexual potential, as long as they didn't actually have sex with them - then, when the opportunity for sex comes along, they would expect themselves to just be able to resist it.

But when we think about character building, it's the little things that count. It would be helpful to stop flirting, and to reprimand themselves even if they thought "I would ", and so on. Try to think about the main thing you struggle with, and then think about how that plays out in the little everyday things, and in your normal attitude towards people and the world. And then have a look at how you could change those small things, and it will become a lot easier to do the right thing when it comes to the more significant things.
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greeneyedgirl
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#4566
(Original post by + polarity -)
I don't think anyone at uni even knows I am a Christian. I have hidden everything so well :emo:
I made sure during freshers week to tell the loudest of my flatmates I was and that I was no sex before marriage. Also me being missing on a wed evening (CU) kinda doesn't go unnoticed

(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
Hi everyone, I recently became born again, a couple of months ago, but i just feel it's so difficult not to sin being a teenager especially in today's society and I keep getting down about how i behave, it's not majorly bad but I just don't want to disappoint God but because I have lived a sinful way before I was saved i find it difficult to overcome old habits. Help?
It's impossible to not sin. That's why grace is so amazing! We get love and forgiveness even when we fail! That's not to say we shouldn't try to not sin, but don't beat yourself up too much about sinning, focus on good things, and the good things will infiltrate your life more and more. It's not a sprint, it's a long race, takes a long time, but the holy spirit is inside you, changing you bit by bit try focus on one thing which you are struggling, and focus on that sin. If you see my most recent post here, alcohol was a major problem to me, and I feel I've become so much closer to God since I've cut back on all that drinking! Shall be praying for you also posting here really has helped me!
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LoveLoveLove16
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(Original post by Calumcalum)
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the stuff about habits - I think a lot of people have a mentality where their Christian living is just about waiting till a pretty serious situation comes along and then mustering the willpower to overcome it in the right way - actually, I think there's a massive role for building habits and building our characters. We have to think carefully about the little things and hope that the collection of these gives us the character to carry on do the right thing when it comes to more serious stuff. So, for example, if someone struggled with lots of sexual relationships before they were a Christian, they might think it's OK to keep flirting with more people, or to evaluate the people around them in terms of their sexual potential, as long as they didn't actually have sex with them - then, when the opportunity for sex comes along, they would expect themselves to just be able to resist it.

But when we think about character building, it's the little things that count. It would be helpful to stop flirting, and to reprimand themselves even if they thought "I would ", and so on. Try to think about the main thing you struggle with, and then think about how that plays out in the little everyday things, and in your normal attitude towards people and the world. And then have a look at how you could change those small things, and it will become a lot easier to do the right thing when it comes to the more significant things.
Thank you, i'm going to try and stop those little things which will help a lot more
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LoveLoveLove16
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(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
I made sure during freshers week to tell the loudest of my flatmates I was and that I was no sex before marriage. Also me being missing on a wed evening (CU) kinda doesn't go unnoticed


It's impossible to not sin. That's why grace is so amazing! We get love and forgiveness even when we fail! That's not to say we shouldn't try to not sin, but don't beat yourself up too much about sinning, focus on good things, and the good things will infiltrate your life more and more. It's not a sprint, it's a long race, takes a long time, but the holy spirit is inside you, changing you bit by bit try focus on one thing which you are struggling, and focus on that sin. If you see my most recent post here, alcohol was a major problem to me, and I feel I've become so much closer to God since I've cut back on all that drinking! Shall be praying for you also posting here really has helped me!
Thank you so much! I'm going to continue posting here, also, am I the only one who gets a lot of hurtful and disrespectful feedback from those who aren't Christian? I mean recently I've just been doing things like just posting religious statuses and people just seem to mock me or insult it, I even had pages of the bible ripped up and left outside of my house, I don't know if that was intentional or it was just there by coincidence but even forgetting about that, i've had so many people just being horrible about it, but it's like as much as it's hurtful I still try and post but sometimes I feel almost scared to or nervous about doing so
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#4569
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#4569
(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
I made sure during freshers week to tell the loudest of my flatmates I was and that I was no sex before marriage. Also me being missing on a wed evening (CU) kinda doesn't go unnoticed
:beard: Why did you decide to do this?

(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
I even had pages of the bible ripped up and left outside of my house
wat
LoveLoveLove16
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(Original post by + polarity -)
:beard: Why did you decide to do this?


wat
There were pages ripped out of the bible and left outside of my house, just scattered.
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marille
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(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
With regards to non-Christians in dating, oddly I've found the bf who led me furthest astray claimed to be a Christian.
Same here...

With regards to relationships, I think we can all have ideals, but in reality we don't have much choice over the people we fall for (and vice versa). Some people make blanket statements about Christians dating non-Christians, but one of the strongest relationships I know is between a Christian and an agnostic, and I think if both people are able to accept and respect each other it needn't matter. And in fact, the same goes for friendships, too.

P.S. I spy a Charlie! How excited are you about the new Chameleon Circuit?!
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#4572
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#4572
(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
There were pages ripped out of the bible and left outside of my house, just scattered.
You're Ghanaian? :gah: You should join the African Society!

Assuming it was intentional, why did/would people react to your conversion like this? Are you surrounded by atheists or something?
greeneyedgirl
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(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
Thank you so much! I'm going to continue posting here, also, am I the only one who gets a lot of hurtful and disrespectful feedback from those who aren't Christian? I mean recently I've just been doing things like just posting religious statuses and people just seem to mock me or insult it, I even had pages of the bible ripped up and left outside of my house, I don't know if that was intentional or it was just there by coincidence but even forgetting about that, i've had so many people just being horrible about it, but it's like as much as it's hurtful I still try and post but sometimes I feel almost scared to or nervous about doing so
Oh one of my atheist friends is always commenting on any Christian fb status of mine with something snide, but it's normally countered with quite a few Christian "likes" or comments as well. At the end of the day, it's not easy following Christ, He didn't pretend it would be. But it's OH SO WORTH IT! With time I've got more confidence in my own religion, and with that I've become more open with it. If someone says "tell me about yourself", I include my faith a lot more than I used to as it has become a larger part of my life!

Few bible verses which might help you

It is the Lord who goes before you. He will be with you; he will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed. (Deuteronomy 31:8)

I have set the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. (Psalm 16:8)

The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? Though an army encamp against me, my heart shall not fear; though war rise up against me, yet I will be confident. (Psalm 27: 1, 3)

Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint. (Isaiah 40:28-31) - this is one of fav passages of all time

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Matthew 11: 28-31)

If God is for us, who can be against us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8: 31b, 35, 37-39)

And one of my fav songs from that verse



(Original post by + polarity -)
:beard: Why did you decide to do this?
So that everyone would know right from the start, that I am Emily, the Christian.

(Original post by marille)
Same here...

With regards to relationships, I think we can all have ideals, but in reality we don't have much choice over the people we fall for (and vice versa). Some people make blanket statements about Christians dating non-Christians, but one of the strongest relationships I know is between a Christian and an agnostic, and I think if both people are able to accept and respect each other it needn't matter. And in fact, the same goes for friendships, too.
Very well said. My mum married my dad and he wasn't a Christian. He is now. What great witness to God's power and ability to work through relationships that that?!
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LoveLoveLove16
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(Original post by + polarity -)
You're Ghanaian? :gah: You should join the African Society!

Assuming it was intentional, why did/would people react to your conversion like this? Are you surrounded by atheists or something?
Lolll you could tell by my Asante surname right? I don't know, I mean there are quite a lot of Atheists in my school but even so they don't have a right to be like that
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LoveLoveLove16
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(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
Oh one of my atheist friends is always commenting on any Christian fb status of mine with something snide, but it's normally countered with quite a few Christian "likes" or comments as well. At the end of the day, it's not easy following Christ, He didn't pretend it would be. But it's OH SO WORTH IT! With time I've got more confidence in my own religion, and with that I've become more open with it. If someone says "tell me about yourself", I include my faith a lot more than I used to as it has become a larger part of my life!

Few bible verses which might help you

It is the Lord who goes before you. He will be with you; he will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed. (Deuteronomy 31:8)

I have set the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. (Psalm 16:8)

The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? Though an army encamp against me, my heart shall not fear; though war rise up against me, yet I will be confident. (Psalm 27: 1, 3)

Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint. (Isaiah 40:28-31) - this is one of fav passages of all time

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. (Matthew 11: 28-31)

If God is for us, who can be against us? Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8: 31b, 35, 37-39)

And one of my fav songs from that verse




So that everyone would know right from the start, that I am Emily, the Christian.


Very well said. My mum married my dad and he wasn't a Christian. He is now. What great witness to God's power and ability to work through relationships that that?!
Wow, those bible scriptures really touch you, and that's how you feel God's presence, he doesn't speak to you through your head, he does through your heart.
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greeneyedgirl
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(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
Wow, those bible scriptures really touch you, and that's how you feel God's presence, he doesn't speak to you through your head, he does through your heart.
I get a bit obsessive whenever I have a problem or am looking up bible verses for someone else, google is an amazing feature. I rarely read the bible in order but dip into different verses which speak to me! The psalms are amazing as they are people just like us with their trials and tribulations about God! But whatever you're feeling, there is always some verse in Bible which helps!
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Kebabbi
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Hi, I know this is going to sound a bit crazy - I haven't been able to tell anyone else - but I was wondering if anyone on here could help me...

I don't want to be too specific but basically I have a lot of medical issues and, aside from a lot of other stuff, have had four operations, two of which I would consider 'major.' All four were surgeries I *had* to have for various reasons, although the most major was a choice (it was scoliosis surgery - my doctor said I could leave it but that I'd be wheelchair bound within a couple of years and my lungs might collapse, so I went for it.) All four went wrong for various reasons, the most major complications being from the scoliosis op (I won't go into it but I will be living with huge pain for the rest of my life.) In the three years since that surgery, I've often wished I hadn't had it; sometimes I feel like I betrayed God, thinking that man could 'rebuild' my spine better than He built it in the first place, and that this is why so many things have now gone wrong.

I am also deaf - I can hear okay with hearing aids (i.e. I can function) but my hearing is getting worse, I can no longer hear music properly and most sounds are nothing like the 'real' sounds. In three weeks I'm meant to be having an operation which should restore the hearing in one ear.

The thing is, I don't *need* this operation. If I leave my hearing as it is, I won't become wheelchair bound; my lungs won't collapse. I began learning sign language 3 years ago and would probably manage even if I ended up completely deaf. I feel like I'm having this surgery purely for selfish reasons - because I want to listen to music, want to 'fit in' without trying to piece together bits of conversation all the time - and I'm worrying that, just like with my back, I'm messing with something that God made and planned for me...

Sorry this is so long; I just read it back and it seems really self-pitying, sorry! I'm really not wanting sympathy, just advice. Basically, is opting for surgery messing with God's work?
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Alex-jc123
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#4578
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(Original post by d123)
I personally would be very wary of using the Adam and Eve myth to justify anything other than a general idea that marriage is a desirable thing and that humanity ought to be stewards over the earth.
As a Christian, should you not be "wary" of applying the term "myth" to such a sacred context? You give the impression that the early segments of the Old Testament are like Pagan stories: false but true when interpreted allegorically. Such a thing is not commendable in a 'Christian', as the ancestry of Christ is rooted in Genesis. Moreover, Paul acknowledged the validity of this so-called "myth" in Romans 5:12-14; was he seeking to deceive us in the form of dishonesty?
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Lantana
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(Original post by Calumcalum)
I don't know; personally I wouldn't see any point in it and so would avoid it for legal reasons...
You'd be a great politician. So just to clarify, you (generally) think it's morally acceptable but wouldn't do it because it's illegal - or have I got that wrong?

(Original post by Facticity)
Errm I'd like to know what people here think of non-Christian friendships and non-Christian relationships and perhaps any passages from the Bible.
I think it's the proportion of friends to get right- I see people going to either extreme which doesn't tend to be healthy.

Personally, I won't date non-xians. I don't see the point in me dating a person that I wouldn't (potentially) marry and I want my husband to be xian. I don't want to not be able to share such a huge part of who I am and my identity and my life with someone so important. Yes, I do realise I will end up as an old cat lady.


(Original post by + polarity -)
I don't think anyone at uni even knows I am a Christian. I have hidden everything so well :emo:
I don't think you're the only one. Why did you feel this need?
(Original post by LoveLoveLove16)
Thank you so much! I'm going to continue posting here, also, am I the only one who gets a lot of hurtful and disrespectful feedback from those who aren't Christian? I mean recently I've just been doing things like just posting religious statuses and people just seem to mock me or insult it, I even had pages of the bible ripped up and left outside of my house, I don't know if that was intentional or it was just there by coincidence but even forgetting about that, i've had so many people just being horrible about it, but it's like as much as it's hurtful I still try and post but sometimes I feel almost scared to or nervous about doing so
I'm afraid it's just part of xian life. I think I'm desensitised to most of it, but I can imagine it's not very nice.

(Original post by greeneyedgirl)

Very well said. My mum married my dad and he wasn't a Christian. He is now. What great witness to God's power and ability to work through relationships that that?!
Whilst I think that's amazing, I've sadly seen it go the other way. Maybe I'm just really pessimistic :getmecoat:

(Original post by Kebabbi)
Hi, I know this is going to sound a bit crazy - I haven't been able to tell anyone else - but I was wondering if anyone on here could help me...

I don't want to be too specific but basically I have a lot of medical issues and, aside from a lot of other stuff, have had four operations, two of which I would consider 'major.' All four were surgeries I *had* to have for various reasons, although the most major was a choice (it was scoliosis surgery - my doctor said I could leave it but that I'd be wheelchair bound within a couple of years and my lungs might collapse, so I went for it.) All four went wrong for various reasons, the most major complications being from the scoliosis op (I won't go into it but I will be living with huge pain for the rest of my life.) In the three years since that surgery, I've often wished I hadn't had it; sometimes I feel like I betrayed God, thinking that man could 'rebuild' my spine better than He built it in the first place, and that this is why so many things have now gone wrong.

I am also deaf - I can hear okay with hearing aids (i.e. I can function) but my hearing is getting worse, I can no longer hear music properly and most sounds are nothing like the 'real' sounds. In three weeks I'm meant to be having an operation which should restore the hearing in one ear.

The thing is, I don't *need* this operation. If I leave my hearing as it is, I won't become wheelchair bound; my lungs won't collapse. I began learning sign language 3 years ago and would probably manage even if I ended up completely deaf. I feel like I'm having this surgery purely for selfish reasons - because I want to listen to music, want to 'fit in' without trying to piece together bits of conversation all the time - and I'm worrying that, just like with my back, I'm messing with something that God made and planned for me...

Sorry this is so long; I just read it back and it seems really self-pitying, sorry! I'm really not wanting sympathy, just advice. Basically, is opting for surgery messing with God's work?
How many people did Jesus heal? He didn't condemn them for searching out healing. I think you also forgot about the fall. God made everything perfect and then it got twisted and broken. Yes, he may still make good things come out of the bad, but that doesn't mean that he wanted the bad things to happen. Finally, if you have concerns - talk to your doctors. They may not understand the theological implications, but it might help.
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Alex-jc123
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(Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
But this vagueness is very significant. If we cannot find any real distinction between the submission of a wife and a husband, then we can't find any ground for claiming what she ought to be submitting to his leadership. I think you're misremembering the quote (I assume you mean from 1 Corinthians 11), it does not say that 'men must submit to God but women must submit to men'. It talks about glory and headship (the passage is about how to worship), and I do not see how you can infer complementarian ideas of marriage from this.

What verse(s) do you mean for 'domineering'?

As for the 10 Commandments, I think we need to be very careful. If you think this shows that the wife is property, you cannot jump from this to godly submission. Property means ownership - this is not a biblical view of wifeliness. I think it's wrong to assume that it's a list of property - that's a mistake that the New Athiests seem to make to bash religion. In a shop today, I saw an advert for a drink telling people to enjoy it with 'with lime, something else and friends'. It's clear that 'friends' here does not mean we should cut up our friends and put them in our drink. It would be a huge mistake to assume this. Likewise, I see no reason to assume that simply because we cannot covet property, everything we can covet must be property. We already know, from our wider biblical knowledge, that the rights a man has over his slave are vastly different from those he has over his house, so we cannot conclude that a wife is somehow 'owned' or 'controlled' by her husband.

Eve's creation also doesn't imply a difference in roles. Adam was found unable to do his role on his own, because he was lonely. Therefore, Eve was created to share his role with him. This is equality of worth and role.
Equal in role? Then why are women not allowed to speak in a Church/sermon?

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." - Corinthians 14:34-6

The example you reference is of no relevance because it has no continuity from past or future events to back it up. The Bible, in contrast, has profound continuity of attitudes towards women throughout; the Tenth Commandment has continuity with Genesis 3:16 and the aforementioned quote above - as well as ones I quoted from Timothy earlier in the thread.

Why was he unable to do his role?
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