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JB Johnstone
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#4961
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#4961
(Original post by NJA)
Jesus said that unless you are born again you cannot see (understand) the kingdom of God, so you cannot discern God's will.

He went on to detail that when a person is born of the Spirit, you hear the sound thereof.. in Acts when the Spirit was given it was known - they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them the utterance. (John 3:8, 12; Acts 2:4, 33, 39)

Do you preach this or are you deceived by one of Satan's ministers masquerading as "a minister of God"?
...I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Are you asking me whether I've had an experience like speaking in tongues as a "proof" of my salvation?
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NJA
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#4962
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#4962
(Original post by JB Johnstone)
...I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Are you asking me whether I've had an experience like speaking in tongues as a "proof" of my salvation?
I'm sorry u don't understand.

I'll try to put it even more simply.

There is only one gospel so it must be the same as at "the beginning" when the church was set up - Acts 2.

Here all spoke in tongues and this was taken as God's independant witness of receiving his salvation.

Have you received the same confirmation sign?
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JB Johnstone
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#4963
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#4963
(Original post by NJA)
I'm sorry u don't understand.

I'll try to put it even more simply.

There is only one gospel so it must be the same as at "the beginning" when the church was set up - Acts 2.

Here all spoke in tongues and this was taken as God's independant witness of receiving his salvation.

Have you received the same confirmation sign?
There are several ways I could respond to this. No, I have not received the same confirmation sign, speaking in tongues. I have, however, had countless other signs and affirmations of my salvation, many many answers to prayer, etc. etc.
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NJA
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#4964
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#4964
(Original post by JB Johnstone)
There are several ways I could respond to this. No, I have not received the same confirmation sign, speaking in tongues. I have, however, had countless other signs and affirmations of my salvation, many many answers to prayer, etc. etc.
JB, please read Acts 8:5-16, just because a person has experienced answers to prayer does not mean they have actually received the Spirit (the new life, salvation - Romans 8:8-9).
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JB Johnstone
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#4965
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#4965
(Original post by NJA)
JB, please read Acts 8:5-16, just because a person has experienced answers to prayer does not mean they have actually received the Spirit (the new life, salvation - Romans 8:8-9).
(Original post by NJA)
JB, please read Acts 8:5-16, just because a person had had experienced answers to prayer does not mean they have actually received the Spirit (the new life, salvation - Romans 8:8-9).
I don't quite understand where this is all coming from, or the attitude behind it?

Are you trying to maliciously imply that I am unsaved, or is it a genuine fear for my soul and love for me as a Christian brother or (potentially, from your point of view) lost sheep? I pray the latter, I do ask for forgiveness if this initial paragraph seems a little callous or cold-hearted, I'd just like to know a little more of your point of view, tis all.

I do not think that speaking in tongues is either a requirement for or a necessary sign of salvation. In the wilderness, just after the first part of the law (concerning sacrifices) was given and during the ordination and establishment of the Levitical priesthood (Leviticus 8-9) God displayed His glory in the form of fire coming out of the Holy of Holies. Similarly, in Acts 2 in the institution of the church God pours out His Holy Spirit, which is accompanied by the sound of rushing wind and tongues like fire. In Acts 10:26, the first time the gospel is shared with Gentiles, God gives a visible sign.

It seems as though this sign of rushing wind/speaking in tongues, similar to fire coming out from the Holy of Holies, was a one-time event, initially during the establishment of the the Levitical priesthood and finally the church (both for Jews and Gentiles). This would also explain why God seems so harsh to punish Nadab and Abihu/Ananias and Saphira for their sins, both times were critical in the history of Israel and of the church. Certainly not everybody who has committed the same sins as those four has been punished the same way here on earth.

In 1 Corinthians 12:30, Paul makes it clear that speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation
1 Corinthians 13 and 14, Paul makes it abundantly clear that love is the highest gift to be desired.

Never in Scripture is the command "repent, believe, and speak in tongues". Rather, scripture makes it abundantly clear that my duty is to repent and believe in Christ as my Lord, saviour and treasure. If God gives the gift of tongues for His glory, then praise Him! If He chooses to withhold it for whatever reason, praise Him!
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#4966
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#4966
Is this going to turn into one of these silly "you're not a proper Christian" things again? I think most of us here don't speak in tongues...

Can't we all just get along nicely without silly accusations? :dontknow:
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greeneyedgirl
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#4967
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#4967
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Is this going to turn into one of these silly "you're not a proper Christian" things again? I think most of us here don't speak in tongues...

Can't we all just get along nicely without silly accusations? :dontknow:
Agreed! I speak in the tongue of English :teehee:
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#4968
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#4968
(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
Agreed! I speak in the tongue of English :teehee:
That's the only tongue I speak too! :five: :awesome: :yep:

I went to church for the first time in ages and nothing bad happened :woo:
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JB Johnstone
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#4969
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#4969
I am so excited for what God will teach me over the next few days in my quiet time with him. Tomorrow I finish off proverbs with the latter part of Proverbs 31 (LOTS of prayer tomorrow morning ) and then the day after I start Ecclesiastes, which I've been wanting to study for ages.

Purely out of curiosity, and partly to change the subject somewhat, what is everyone else reading/studying, Bible-wise, at the moment?
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greeneyedgirl
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#4970
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#4970
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
That's the only tongue I speak too! :five: :awesome: :yep:

I went to church for the first time in ages and nothing bad happened :woo:
:dance: That is awesome news!!
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22KT22
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#4971
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#4971
Nothing atm although I really should
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#4972
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#4972
(Original post by 22KT22)
Nothing atm although I really should
:ditto:

I'm currently reading through what St John of the Cross says about the dark night of the soul. I'm quite good at mystical reading but not Bible reading :getmecoat:
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greeneyedgirl
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#4973
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#4973
(Original post by JB Johnstone)
I am so excited for what God will teach me over the next few days in my quiet time with him. Tomorrow I finish off proverbs with the latter part of Proverbs 31 (LOTS of prayer tomorrow morning ) and then the day after I start Ecclesiastes, which I've been wanting to study for ages.

Purely out of curiosity, and partly to change the subject somewhat, what is everyone else reading/studying, Bible-wise, at the moment?
My daily bible verses at the minute have been a lot about not storing up things on Earth and losing out on heaven...which is something that I really need to start thinking about and acting on!
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JB Johnstone
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#4974
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#4974
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
:ditto:

I'm currently reading through what St John of the Cross says about the dark night of the soul. I'm quite good at mystical reading but not Bible reading :getmecoat:
Haha, yeah, I can relate. I have over 1000 ebooks on my computer that I want to read this summer, but God keeps reminding me that I will grow so much more by reading His word, rather than the mere words of men.
I used to almost idolise the words of men, find them infallible, yet try to find loopholes in the word of God. Yet lately, more and more I have been enamoured with God's word and He's really blessed me in my readings.
It's so crazy that as we grow we find our pleasures are being conformed into His pleasures, we are being conformed into His image. Psalm 37:4 is such an amazing verse.
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NJA
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#4975
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#4975
(Original post by JB Johnstone)
..

I do not think that speaking in tongues is either a requirement for or a necessary sign of salvation....
God's covenants began with a sign, the sign remains... the rainbow, circumcision etc.

In the Old Testament God's presenced himself in fire, Acts 2:3 shows the transferrence from Old to New Covenants. God's temple, his dwelling place is now in people who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.
The wind and fire happened just before the receiving of the Spirit and was a one-off event... receiving the Spirit, speaking in tongues remained.
Years later in Acts 19 Paul knew the believeers who he had re-baptised still hadn't received the Spirit, that's why he laid hands on them and that's how he knew precisely when they received the Spirit.

The New Covenant is described by the prophets aas a new heart, the sign of receiving that was, and is speaking in new tongue(s).

There is and cannot be any change:
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." (Gal.3:15)

If anyone breaks this covenant, they are the "malicious" one!

(Original post by JB Johnstone)
In 1 Corinthians 12:30, Paul makes it clear that speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation
1 Corinthians 13 and 14, Paul makes it abundantly clear that love is the highest gift to be desired.
"The gifts" are the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of what all Christians have for private use.

Ther gifts list (1 Corinthians 12:8 onwards) is not saying that different people get different attributes when they become Christians... read it again, it says "to one" is given the word of wisdom, "to another" the word of knowledge, to another faith etc.

You wouldn't say that only some Christians have each of these, would you?
How can you even become a Christian without them?

1 Corinthians begins by affirming that they all have all these attributes (1:4-7) - that's why there needs to be limitation & order when all meet, which is why it specifically says "to one", "to another"- in meetings only one person should speak at a time.

If it was true that only some of them could speak in tongues Paul wouldn't have to reason with them not to all do it in meetings - the problem could never arise!
Also his encouragement to pray in tongues would only be applicable to a certain clique in the church.
No, Corinthians agrees with Acts and other passages that show all all speaking in tongues

Acts also shows that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit, by his sign of tongues.
So, if it were possible to receive the Spirit (become a Christian in the true sense) without tongues they could not have made this judgement.

Like all my brothers & sisters, I pray in tongues & use the other attributes of God daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or other gift.

If you don't accept the simple private/public distinction you aren't going to understand "the gifts" passage, or salvation, or love. Most religious organisations (I won't call them churches cos Jesus only set up 1 church, he isn't confused) have replaved the bible teaching on rceeiving the Spirit with "confess Jesus as your Lord & saviour and you are saved", or "pray the sinners prayer" etc, both man-made, words-only "gospels" that won't save you.
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greeneyedgirl
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#4976
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#4976
(Original post by NJA)
God's covenants began with a sign, the sign remains... the rainbow, circumcision etc.

In the Old Testament God's presenced himself in fire, Acts 2:3 shows the transferrence from Old to New Covenants. God's temple, his dwelling place is now in people who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.
The wind and fire happened just before the receiving of the Spirit and was a one-off event... receiving the Spirit, speaking in tongues remained.
Years later in Acts 19 Paul knew the believeers who he had re-baptised still hadn't received the Spirit, that's why he laid hands on them and that's how he knew precisely when they received the Spirit.

The New Covenant is described by the prophets aas a new heart, the sign of receiving that was, and is speaking in new tongue(s).

There is and cannot be any change:
[COLOR="Navy"]"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." (Gal.3:15)[/COLOR]

If anyone breaks this covenant, they are the "malicious" one!



"The gifts" are the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of what all Christians have for private use.

Ther gifts list (1 Corinthians 12:8 onwards) is not saying that different people get different attributes when they become Christians... read it again, it says "to one" is given the word of wisdom, "to another" the word of knowledge, to another faith etc.

You wouldn't say that only some Christians have each of these, would you?
How can you even become a Christian without them?

1 Corinthians begins by affirming that they all have all these attributes (1:4-7) - that's why there needs to be limitation & order when all meet, which is why it specifically says "to one", "to another"- in meetings only one person should speak at a time.

If it was true that only some of them could speak in tongues Paul wouldn't have to reason with them not to all do it in meetings - the problem could never arise!
Also his encouragement to pray in tongues would only be applicable to a certain clique in the church.
No, Corinthians agrees with Acts and other passages that show all all speaking in tongues

Acts also shows that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit, by his sign of tongues.
So, if it were possible to receive the Spirit (become a Christian in the true sense) without tongues they could not have made this judgement.

Like all my brothers & sisters, I pray in tongues & use the other attributes of God daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or other gift.

If you don't accept the simple private/public distinction you aren't going to understand "the gifts" passage, or salvation, or love. Most religious organisations (I won't call them churches cos Jesus only set up 1 church, he isn't confused) have replaved the bible teaching on rceeiving the Spirit with "confess Jesus as your Lord & saviour and you are saved", or "pray the sinners prayer" etc, both man-made, words-only "gospels" that won't save you.
If you are saying that anyone who doesn't speak in tongues isn't a Christian then I find that a rather offensive accusation!
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#4977
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#4977
(Original post by NJA)
God's covenants began with a sign, the sign remains... the rainbow, circumcision etc.

In the Old Testament God's presenced himself in fire, Acts 2:3 shows the transferrence from Old to New Covenants. God's temple, his dwelling place is now in people who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.
The wind and fire happened just before the receiving of the Spirit and was a one-off event... receiving the Spirit, speaking in tongues remained.
Years later in Acts 19 Paul knew the believeers who he had re-baptised still hadn't received the Spirit, that's why he laid hands on them and that's how he knew precisely when they received the Spirit.

The New Covenant is described by the prophets aas a new heart, the sign of receiving that was, and is speaking in new tongue(s).

There is and cannot be any change:
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." (Gal.3:15)

If anyone breaks this covenant, they are the "malicious" one!



"The gifts" are the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of what all Christians have for private use.

Ther gifts list (1 Corinthians 12:8 onwards) is not saying that different people get different attributes when they become Christians... read it again, it says "to one" is given the word of wisdom, "to another" the word of knowledge, to another faith etc.

You wouldn't say that only some Christians have each of these, would you?
How can you even become a Christian without them?

1 Corinthians begins by affirming that they all have all these attributes (1:4-7) - that's why there needs to be limitation & order when all meet, which is why it specifically says "to one", "to another"- in meetings only one person should speak at a time.

If it was true that only some of them could speak in tongues Paul wouldn't have to reason with them not to all do it in meetings - the problem could never arise!
Also his encouragement to pray in tongues would only be applicable to a certain clique in the church.
No, Corinthians agrees with Acts and other passages that show all all speaking in tongues

Acts also shows that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit, by his sign of tongues.
So, if it were possible to receive the Spirit (become a Christian in the true sense) without tongues they could not have made this judgement.

Like all my brothers & sisters, I pray in tongues & use the other attributes of God daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or other gift.

If you don't accept the simple private/public distinction you aren't going to understand "the gifts" passage, or salvation, or love. Most religious organisations (I won't call them churches cos Jesus only set up 1 church, he isn't confused) have replaved the bible teaching on rceeiving the Spirit with "confess Jesus as your Lord & saviour and you are saved", or "pray the sinners prayer" etc, both man-made, words-only "gospels" that won't save you.
Is there any particular reason you've decided to start attacking us all? :dontknow:

No point playing the "one church" game. The Catholic Church teaches the same thing to its believers and you clearly think that's bull, just the same way I think your church isn't the one true church or the only valid church out there
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JB Johnstone
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#4978
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#4978
(Original post by NJA)
God's covenants began with a sign, the sign remains... the rainbow, circumcision etc.

In the Old Testament God's presenced himself in fire, Acts 2:3 shows the transferrence from Old to New Covenants. God's temple, his dwelling place is now in people who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.
The wind and fire happened just before the receiving of the Spirit and was a one-off event... receiving the Spirit, speaking in tongues remained.
Years later in Acts 19 Paul knew the believeers who he had re-baptised still hadn't received the Spirit, that's why he laid hands on them and that's how he knew precisely when they received the Spirit.

The New Covenant is described by the prophets aas a new heart, the sign of receiving that was, and is speaking in new tongue(s).

There is and cannot be any change:
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." (Gal.3:15)

If anyone breaks this covenant, they are the "malicious" one!



"The gifts" are the meetings-use, *giving* to the church of what all Christians have for private use.

Ther gifts list (1 Corinthians 12:8 onwards) is not saying that different people get different attributes when they become Christians... read it again, it says "to one" is given the word of wisdom, "to another" the word of knowledge, to another faith etc.

You wouldn't say that only some Christians have each of these, would you?
How can you even become a Christian without them?

1 Corinthians begins by affirming that they all have all these attributes (1:4-7) - that's why there needs to be limitation & order when all meet, which is why it specifically says "to one", "to another"- in meetings only one person should speak at a time.

If it was true that only some of them could speak in tongues Paul wouldn't have to reason with them not to all do it in meetings - the problem could never arise!
Also his encouragement to pray in tongues would only be applicable to a certain clique in the church.
No, Corinthians agrees with Acts and other passages that show all all speaking in tongues

Acts also shows that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit, by his sign of tongues.
So, if it were possible to receive the Spirit (become a Christian in the true sense) without tongues they could not have made this judgement.

Like all my brothers & sisters, I pray in tongues & use the other attributes of God daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or other gift.

If you don't accept the simple private/public distinction you aren't going to understand "the gifts" passage, or salvation, or love. Most religious organisations (I won't call them churches cos Jesus only set up 1 church, he isn't confused) have replaved the bible teaching on rceeiving the Spirit with "confess Jesus as your Lord & saviour and you are saved", or "pray the sinners prayer" etc, both man-made, words-only "gospels" that won't save you.
Thank you for this post. I disagree with some of your points and interpretations, but I will definitely prayerfully reconsider my former views (which I have already stated). I have asked for humility from the Lord as we have been discussing this, and he has convicted me that the most humble thing to do at this point is to graciously back out of this discussion (2 Tim 2:22).

I do not believe that a mere confession of Jesus as Lord and saviour or praying of the sinners prayer will save anyone, it is to do with the heart, and scripture constantly and consistently shows that belief in the heart is what saves somebody. This is what I have, an earnest belief in Jesus as my saviour, joy, treasure and Lord.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#4979
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#4979
(Original post by JB Johnstone)
Thank you for this post. I disagree with some of your points and interpretations, but I will definitely prayerfully reconsider my former views (which I have already stated). I have asked for humility from the Lord as we have been discussing this, and he has convicted me that the most humble thing to do at this point is to graciously back out of this discussion (2 Tim 2:22).

I do not believe that a mere confession of Jesus as Lord and saviour or praying of the sinners prayer will save anyone, it is to do with the heart, and scripture constantly and consistently shows that belief in the heart is what saves somebody. This is what I have, an earnest belief in Jesus as my saviour, joy, treasure and Lord.
What an eloquent and sensible post
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JB Johnstone
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#4980
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#4980
There is "one church", in the sense of one body of Christ, one group of believers, justified and redeemed, who will live with Christ for all eternity.
There are "many churches", in the sense of different practices and beliefs (while still holding true the fundamentals of Christianity).

Different meanings of the word "church".
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