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Cicerao
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#7581
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#7581
(Original post by adamrules247)
Of those who practise contracpetion divorce is somewhere at around 40%. For those who practise NFP (natural family planning) the rates are a tiny 0.2%. Don't you think that's amazing?!
No.

Firstly, the study, instigated by the heavily biased Family of the Americas Foundation, was based on 505 couples, hardly the largest sample size. In addition, rates are comparatively low because those who abhor contraception are often in communities which either condemn or shun divorcees. It's as good an argument as saying arranged marriages are better because they have low divorce rates - yet the only reason that is so is because it's socially unacceptable to divorce, despite the fact that many people in that situation are cripplingly unhappy.

I find it hilarious when people say they'll "let God decide how many children they have" - every time they end up with a crapton of children, isn't that a strange coincidence? Golly, it's almost as if it's a biological fact that if you keep having sex you'll produce children. Fact is, the teaching on contraception is nothing to do with not trusting God, otherwise natural family planning wouldn't be allowed either (it's still taking measures to prevent conception.) It's about making lots of followers for the Church, no matter how many AIDS-riddled children in Africa there are born in the process.
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+ polarity -
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#7582
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#7582
(Original post by Cicerao)
Golly, it's almost as if it's a biological fact that if you keep having sex you'll produce children.
lol
Cicerao
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#7583
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#7583
(Original post by + polarity -)
lol
300% of your daily RDA of snark.
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wind-swept
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#7584
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#7584
Prayer request: My grandad died on Tuesday so prayers would be appreciated, particularly for my dad and my grandma.
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d123
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#7585
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(Original post by wind-swept)
Prayer request: My grandad died on Tuesday so prayers would be appreciated, particularly for my dad and my grandma.
:hugs: Sorry to hear that

(Original post by Cicerao)
No.

Firstly, the study, instigated by the heavily biased Family of the Americas Foundation, was based on 505 couples, hardly the largest sample size. In addition, rates are comparatively low because those who abhor contraception are often in communities which either condemn or shun divorcees. It's as good an argument as saying arranged marriages are better because they have low divorce rates - yet the only reason that is so is because it's socially unacceptable to divorce, despite the fact that many people in that situation are cripplingly unhappy.

I find it hilarious when people say they'll "let God decide how many children they have" - every time they end up with a crapton of children, isn't that a strange coincidence? Golly, it's almost as if it's a biological fact that if you keep having sex you'll produce children. Fact is, the teaching on contraception is nothing to do with not trusting God, otherwise natural family planning wouldn't be allowed either (it's still taking measures to prevent conception.) It's about making lots of followers for the Church, no matter how many AIDS-riddled children in Africa there are born in the process.
PRSOM. Agree with this completely.
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dreiviergrenadier
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#7586
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#7586
(Original post by Cicerao)
No.

Firstly, the study, instigated by the heavily biased Family of the Americas Foundation, was based on 505 couples, hardly the largest sample size. In addition, rates are comparatively low because those who abhor contraception are often in communities which either condemn or shun divorcees. It's as good an argument as saying arranged marriages are better because they have low divorce rates - yet the only reason that is so is because it's socially unacceptable to divorce, despite the fact that many people in that situation are cripplingly unhappy.

I find it hilarious when people say they'll "let God decide how many children they have" - every time they end up with a crapton of children, isn't that a strange coincidence? Golly, it's almost as if it's a biological fact that if you keep having sex you'll produce children. Fact is, the teaching on contraception is nothing to do with not trusting God, otherwise natural family planning wouldn't be allowed either (it's still taking measures to prevent conception.) It's about making lots of followers for the Church, no matter how many AIDS-riddled children in Africa there are born in the process.
I think that's an overly cynical view of Catholic teaching, as I'm sure Adam/Yawn will come along and explain soon enough... But in the mean time a few points:

1) Catholic teaching doesn't, too my knowledge, make any reference to the idea of 'trusting God' as a reason to prohibit contraception. The teaching is instead based on the idea of not acting incompatibly with the possibility of life in sexual action.

2) This teaching existed long before modern contraception, so it cannot be construed as an attempt to overcome contraceptive obstacles to increase the proportion of Cathlolics.

3) It's hard to see how AIDS would be spread in large numbers by families strictly following Catholic teaching.
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adamrules247
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#7587
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#7587
(Original post by Cicerao)
No.
Yes, I'm afriad. And your objection is merely based upon your seeming hatred of Catholicism.
Firstly, the study, instigated by the heavily biased Family of the Americas Foundation, was based on 505 couples, hardly the largest sample size. In addition, rates are comparatively low because those who abhor contraception are often in communities which either condemn or shun divorcees. It's as good an argument as saying arranged marriages are better because they have low divorce rates - yet the only reason that is so is because it's socially unacceptable to divorce, despite the fact that many people in that situation are cripplingly unhappy.
Even if it is only a small sample (though 505 couples is not too bad; it is 1010 people after all) 0.2% is still an amazingly low figure; and not just some random anomaly. And that simply isn't true that they are in communities that abhor divorce. These sorts of people are usually scattered throughout secular society surrounded by people who disagree profoundly with what they are doing, hardly the easiest conditions to operate under and indeed something which would make it harder for the NFP method to work. Your comparison with arranged marriage is also one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, in most of those cultures a woman would become totally ostracised from society and could even suffer violence; to compare the two is crude at worst and stupid at best.

I find it hilarious when people say they'll "let God decide how many children they have" - every time they end up with a crapton of children, isn't that a strange coincidence? Golly, it's almost as if it's a biological fact that if you keep having sex you'll produce children. Fact is, the teaching on contraception is nothing to do with not trusting God, otherwise natural family planning wouldn't be allowed either (it's still taking measures to prevent conception.) It's about making lots of followers for the Church, no matter how many AIDS-riddled children in Africa there are born in the process.
Maybe God wants large families, he does, after all, want to populate Heaven. And the last time I checked biology was one of the sciences and science is the language of creation flowing forth from the mouth of God. So indeed the fact that our bodies are built in such a way implies further it is the will of God. Perhaps if you'd bothered to quote the whole of my post (rather than a small chunk) you'd actually understand what the trusting God point is about. It's not just about trusting God to do the right thing but about trusting God with your vocation to marriage. And if you knew anything about naturally family planning then you'd realise it isn't an artifial method - the chance for the transmission of life, and the total self giving of yourself to the other person, still remain open.

And, no, it's not just about getting new members of the Church, it's about the whole of civilisation. As I've already demonstated with opinions from both pro death advocates and pro life advocates, artifial contraception and its widespread acceptance has been tantamount to allowing abortion to be accepted as a norm. It removes any semblance of self responsibility. Your closing comment about AIDS is the most disgusting thing I've ever read and you should be ashamed of yourself. It's the neo colonial attitutes of flooding Africa with condoms (with abortions close behind, suprise, suprise) that has lead to a spike in AIDS. Indeed to quote the world's greatest living expert on AIDS/HIV in the third world, Professor Edward C Green of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies "The pope is correct, or put it a better way, the best evidence we have supports the pope’s comments." (refering to when the Pope correctly said that contraception may be making AIDS in Africa worse). Uganda was hit by an Aids epidemic in the 1980s and the government thought condoms were part of the answer, though it also promoted abstinence and fidelity. By 1992 more than 18 per cent of Ugandan adults tested HIV positive.

But the country has a 41.9 per cent Catholic population so, using this as a base, the Church promoted the "Education for Life" programme, based on abstinence and fidelity while rejecting condoms. By 2007 only 5.4 per cent of Ugandans were HIV positive. No other country has effected such a recovery. The correlation between a devoutly Catholic population and containment of Aids is startling and demonstrable. By 2007 Burundi, with a 62 per cent Catholic population, had only a 2 per cent Aids infection rate. Angola, 38 per cent Catholic, had a 2.1 per cent rate. In contrast, Swaziland, only 20 per cent Catholic, had a 26.1 per cent infection rate and Botswana, just 5 per cent Catholic, had a 23.9 per cent rate. Beyond Africa, in the Philippines, 81 per cent Catholic, the HIV rate is a miniscule 0.01 per cent (source). You can google all these figures if you like - you'll see they're all correct and official UN figures.

(Original post by d123)
PRSOM. Agree with this completely.
You agree with an anti scientific post based upon hatred, rhetoric and stupidity? Fair enough.
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adamrules247
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#7588
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#7588
(Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
I think that's an overly cynical view of Catholic teaching, as I'm sure Adam/Yawn will come along and explain soon enough... But in the mean time a few points:

1) Catholic teaching doesn't, too my knowledge, make any reference to the idea of 'trusting God' as a reason to prohibit contraception. The teaching is instead based on the idea of not acting incompatibly with the possibility of life in sexual action.

2) This teaching existed long before modern contraception, so it cannot be construed as an attempt to overcome contraceptive obstacles to increase the proportion of Cathlolics.

3) It's hard to see how AIDS would be spread in large numbers by families strictly following Catholic teaching.
Ahh you beat me to it! The idea of "trusting God" simply means (that is not the way Cicerao has understood it) trusting God to lead you properly in your vocation. And allowing yourself to be given totally to God and the other person. It doesn't help that the user left out half my post though. It was a tricky attempt by them to refuse to view the issue as a totality and thus wouldn't engage with half my argument.

And thank you for mentioning point three - I totally forgot about that
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#7589
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#7589
(Original post by wind-swept)
Prayer request: My grandad died on Tuesday so prayers would be appreciated, particularly for my dad and my grandma.
:jumphug: Prayer said :jumphug:
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amandacalifornia
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#7590
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#7590
(Original post by Cicerao)
Fact is, the teaching on contraception is nothing to do with not trusting God, otherwise natural family planning wouldn't be allowed either (it's still taking measures to prevent conception.) It's about making lots of followers for the Church, no matter how many AIDS-riddled children in Africa there are born in the process.
(Original post by + polarity -)
lol
(Original post by d123)
PRSOM. Agree with this completely.
This nasty, hateful, ignorant, unChristian comment and the rep/response it got on this thread, of all threads, is why I have not joined the TSR Christian society.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
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dreiviergrenadier
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#7591
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#7591
(Original post by adamrules247)
Ahh you beat me to it! The idea of "trusting God" simply means (that is not the way Cicerao has understood it) trusting God to lead you properly in your vocation. And allowing yourself to be given totally to God and the other person. It doesn't help that the user left out half my post though. It was a tricky attempt by them to refuse to view the issue as a totality and thus wouldn't engage with half my argument.

And thank you for mentioning point three - I totally forgot about that

(Original post by amandacalifornia)
This nasty, hateful, ignorant, unChristian comment and the rep/response it got on this thread, of all threads, is why I have not joined the TSR Christian society.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
As much as I can understand (and admire) your zeal for defending the Catholic Church, I would very much suggest moderating the tone of the language used in doing so, and the assumptions made about other people in the process. Many people are genuinely curious, misinformed, subconsciously biased against Christian organisations, and the correct response is with love, charity and respect.

Amanda - it shouldn't surprise you that the Christian society is full of flawed people! It's certainly not a reason to avoid joining - you'd never join a church otherwise. The vast majority of conversation here is rather different in tone too. I hope you can change your mind at some point.
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adamrules247
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#7592
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#7592
(Original post by dreiviergrenadier)
As much as I can understand (and admire) your zeal for defending the Catholic Church, I would very much suggest moderating the tone of the language used in doing so, and the assumptions made about other people in the process. Many people are genuinely curious, misinformed, subconsciously biased against Christian organisations, and the correct response is with love, charity and respect.

Amanda - it shouldn't surprise you that the Christian society is full of flawed people! It's certainly not a reason to avoid joining - you'd never join a church otherwise. The vast majority of conversation here is rather different in tone too. I hope you can change your mind at some point.
I agree that some people genuinely are curious, such as the person who initially asked about the Catholic Church's teaching (and after I gave it I was pleasantly suprised to have them say it made a lot of sense). However, I will not take lying down an attack on Holy Mother Church which is based on lies, the abuse of statistics and general nastiness. I'm sure you'll agree that the original post I responded to could have been worded a lot more pleasantly.
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Nephilim
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#7593
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#7593
Wow...maybe I shouldn't've asked that question after all lol. Everybody needs to take a deep breath and chill. Cicero's comment was not hateful or un-christian, it just stemmed from a disdain of the spreading of AIDS (which is a completely natural view to take, who likes AIDS anyway). Amanda, do not cast shame onto anyone, for shame is from Satan.
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greeneyedgirl
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#7594
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#7594
This thread needs a jump hug from some kittens

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adamrules247
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#7595
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#7595
(Original post by Nephilim)
Wow...maybe I shouldn't've asked that question after all lol. Everybody needs to take a deep breath and chill. Cicero's comment was not hateful or un-christian, it just stemmed from a disdain of the spreading of AIDS (which is a completely natural view to take, who likes AIDS anyway). Amanda, do not cast shame onto anyone, for shame is from Satan.
No, it's good you bought it up because discerning truth it hugely important. Cicero's very sarcastic about Church teachings being all about getting more Catholics and the worst and most disgusting claim that those teachings are responsible for the spread of AIDS when it's totally the other way round.
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Cicerao
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#7596
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#7596
(Original post by adamrules247)
Yes, I'm afriad.
So "amazing" is objective, now?

And your objection is merely based upon your seeming hatred of Catholicism.
Possible motivation for bothering to post, but not the basis of the objection, no.

Even if it is only a small sample (though 505 couples is not too bad; it is 1010 people after all) 0.2% is still an amazingly low figure and not just some random anomaly.
More likely than not it's not an accurate figure in the first place. Either way, a low divorce rate does not equal strong and happy marriages. Especially considering some of the vile tripe I see - "my husband used a condom and I felt like a sex toy!" - that is absolutely their mental issue, not a problem with contraception. If having sex with someone you're supposed to love makes you feel used just because you're preventing eternally pregnancy then it's your own hang-ups. Normal people do not feel that way. Contraception is only an issue for people who make an issue out of it.

And that simply isn't true that they are in communities that abhor divorce. These sorts of people are usually scattered throughout secular society surrounded by people who disagree profoundly with what they are doing,
Yes, it is. Those who practise NFP are overwhelmingly deeply religious since there are much more effective methods of contraception for others to use. They are "scattered throughout" SOCIETY, but the COMMUNITY they're most dedicated to is very much religion and church-based. Religious communities which abhor contraception also abhor divorce.

hardly the easiest conditions to operate under and indeed something which would make it harder for the NFP method to work.
The method doesn't rely on approval to work.

Your comparison with arranged marriage is also one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard, in most of those cultures a woman would become totally ostracised from society and could even suffer violence; to compare the two is crude at worst and stupid at best.
You've confused arranged marriage with forced marriage.

Maybe God wants large families, he does, after all, want to populate Heaven. And the last time I checked biology was one of the sciences and science is the language of creation flowing forth from the mouth of God. So indeed the fact that our bodies are built in such a way implies further it is the will of God. Perhaps if you'd bothered to quote the whole of my post (rather than a small chunk) you'd actually understand what the trusting God point is about. It's not just about trusting God to do the right thing but about trusting God with your vocation to marriage.
This is just vague nonsense so I don't really have a comment to make, apart from the fact that bodies being built in a certain way or having a certain function does not imply anything about the will of God. Spiritually speaking, what is the design for the prostate, also known as the male g-spot, in the male's anus? What is God implying about his will for our sex lives?

And if you knew anything about naturally family planning then you'd realise it isn't an artifial method - the chance for the transmission of life, and the total self giving of yourself to the other person, still remain open.
I didn't say it was an artifical method. I said it can be used to prevent conception - which it can. Condoms, the pill and absolutely any other method are not 100% effective, so by this logic the chance for the transmission of life is still open so this should be acceptable. Why is using timing any more "giving yourself" than, say, a contraceptive injection which does not interfere in lovemaking? I honestly don't even believe you know why you think that.

And, no, it's not just about getting new members of the Church, it's about the whole of civilisation. As I've already demonstated with opinions from both pro death advocates and pro life advocates, artifial contraception and its widespread acceptance has been tantamount to allowing abortion to be accepted as a norm. It removes any semblance of self responsibility.
Wishy-washy nonsense. Producing far more children than the world can accommodate, far more children than anyone has time to give enough attention to and far more children than most can afford is SELF-RESPONSIBILITY? If anything, actively using an effective method of contraception to ensure you only have children you can actually provide for is self-responsibility.

Your closing comment about AIDS is the most disgusting thing I've ever read and you should be ashamed of yourself.
I'm not, to the point where I'm pleased with myself.

It's the neo colonial attitutes of flooding Africa with condoms (with abortions close behind, suprise, suprise) that has lead to a spike in AIDS. Indeed to quote the world's greatest living expert on AIDS/HIV in the third world, Professor Edward C Green of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies "The pope is correct, or put it a better way, the best evidence we have supports the pope’s comments." (refering to when the Pope correctly said that contraception may be making AIDS in Africa worse). Uganda was hit by an Aids epidemic in the 1980s and the government thought condoms were part of the answer, though it also promoted abstinence and fidelity. By 1992 more than 18 per cent of Ugandan adults tested HIV positive.

But the country has a 41.9 per cent Catholic population so, using this as a base, the Church promoted the "Education for Life" programme, based on abstinence and fidelity while rejecting condoms. By 2007 only 5.4 per cent of Ugandans were HIV positive. No other country has effected such a recovery. The correlation between a devoutly Catholic population and containment of Aids is startling and demonstrable. By 2007 Burundi, with a 62 per cent Catholic population, had only a 2 per cent Aids infection rate. Angola, 38 per cent Catholic, had a 2.1 per cent rate. In contrast, Swaziland, only 20 per cent Catholic, had a 26.1 per cent infection rate and Botswana, just 5 per cent Catholic, had a 23.9 per cent rate. Beyond Africa, in the Philippines, 81 per cent Catholic, the HIV rate is a miniscule 0.01 per cent (source). You can google all these figures if you like - you'll see they're all correct and official UN figures.
Greatest expert? Why? Oh, because he agrees with you. See, most intelligent experts recognise a combination of factors, rather than bowing down to anything the Pope says because it MUST have been that.

Uganda's success in reducing high HIV infection rates is the result of high-level political commitment to HIV prevention and care, involving a wide range of partners and all sectors of society. Same-day results for HIV tests and social marketing of condoms and self-treatment kits for sexually transmitted infections, backed up by sex education programmes, have helped reduce very high HIV infection rates.
The drop in HIV prevalence in Uganda in the 1990s cannot be attributed to a single factor. It is likely to have been a result of both a fall in the number of new infections (incidence), and a rise in the number of AIDS-related deaths.
Oh, and it has to be said:

BBC NEWS An organisation helping people living with HIV/Aids in Uganda has questioned the authenticity of the government's statistics on the disease.

Uganda is often held up as a success story and the government lauded for the progress it has made with the official prevalence rate put at only 6%.

But after conducting research in districts across Uganda, an NGO suggests the real picture is far worse.

They found prevalence rates as high as 30% and bad access to anti-retrovirals.
In addition to all of the above, the fact that, for example, the Phillipines is Catholic almost certainly has nothing to do with the low HIV rate. Japan is a highly secular country - with roughly a 0.01% HIV prevalence rate. As much as I hate to spoil your fun, correlation does not imply causation.

(Original post by amandacalifornia)
This nasty, hateful, ignorant, unChristian comment and the rep/response it got on this thread, of all threads, is why I have not joined the TSR Christian society.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Why should I? Because you are Catholic and now you are butthurt? Sorry, but I'm very pleased with myself. You're always free to go on Catholic Society, I'm not allowed on there.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#7597
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#7597
OK, can we take the debates to Ask a Christian or somewhere else please? This is mean to be a peaceful thread without antagonism in either direction

PS. We're all making Baby Jesus cry :sadnod:
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greeneyedgirl
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#7598
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#7598
Agreed. In fact even Ask A Christian is getting overly tetchy for my liking at the minute :sadnod:
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#7599
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(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
Agreed. In fact even Ask A Christian is getting overly tetchy for my liking at the minute :sadnod:
Yeah, Ask a Christian gets a bit full on at times! :eek:

On a positive note: I'm feeling better about life and Oxford abuse, having spent a few days emailing The Samaritans. I'm seeing a priest on Tuesday, so gonna try and hold out til then on the going crazy/"why did God do this to me?" front :o:
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greeneyedgirl
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#7600
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(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Yeah, Ask a Christian gets a bit full on at times! :eek:

On a positive note: I'm feeling better about life and Oxford abuse, having spent a few days emailing The Samaritans. I'm seeing a priest on Tuesday, so gonna try and hold out til then on the going crazy/"why did God do this to me?" front :o:
:woo: this is very good news, happy for you!

Work load is stressing me out a lot less at the minute, seem to be making headway through it thank goodness! Got church student games night tomorrow which I'm looking forward to!
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