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GOGSoc the Third

Reply 3980

Kitty Pimms

17

apotoftea

Chuffing crappy bloody awful journal access :banghead:

Anything I can do?

(Ethereal, BTW, thanks much for the PM, I will reply when a bit more sober)

Reply 3981

Ethereal

19

IlexAquifolium

Anything I can do?

(Ethereal, BTW, thanks much for the PM, I will reply when a bit more sober)

No worries :smile:

Reply 3982

apotoftea

19

IlexAquifolium

Anything I can do?

(Ethereal, BTW, thanks much for the PM, I will reply when a bit more sober)

British Journal of Religious Education. Vol. 6, No. 1, (1983), p. 20-40 - article on 19th cen religious periodicals. I know an institution that even has a hard copy of this :banghead:

Reply 3983

LLB Kevin

1

I'm watching a live version of 'corran a las colinas', or at least that's what the Spanish subtitles say :tongue:

Reply 3984

apotoftea

19

Ethereal

PhD Progress meeting on Thursday. Meep!!

Best of luck - sure it'll be fine-diddly!

Reply 3985

Ethereal

19

apotoftea

Best of luck - sure it'll be fine-diddly!

Thanks. See Pm2

Reply 3986

Drogue

19

IlexAquifolium

Probably a stupid question, but here goes. Would I be completely screwed trying to get an academic/research/policy job in the US/Canada with a UK PhD?

For academic/research jobs: Yes, but it's harder. For social sciences, US PhDs are longer, usually have a taught component that's a much higher level than a UK MSc and usually involve more teaching, so they usually have a bias towards similar PhD programmes. However I've got the impression that it's done on an individual basis, so if in your PhD you've had that teaching and been taught to that level, it shouldn't be an issue. This works for some places, as for example LSE has an extra taught year in their (at least economics) PhD programme to match the US system. There's also the issue that the US tends to be where the leading academics for almost any social science subject I know of are, which means when it comes to having a supervisor with clout it's much harder with the UK PhD. Plus there's the sheer driven, career orientated nature of PhDs in the UK - I remember my brother saying he found it quite a culture shock when he spent a summer researching there.

For policy jobs, I'd be very surprised if it makes much difference, since their unlikely to know the difference between a UK and US PhD. They're more likely to be prestige whores though, as they more closely resemble a 'normal' employer, recognising 'branded' university names but not knowing in detail what it entails. I know a few people with UK PhDs who've gone into US policy jobs.

Reply 3987

Kitty Pimms

17

Drogue

For academic/research jobs: Yes, but it's harder. For social sciences, US PhDs are longer, usually have a taught component that's a much higher level than a UK MSc and usually involve more teaching, so they usually have a bias towards similar PhD programmes. However I've got the impression that it's done on an individual basis, so if in your PhD you've had that teaching and been taught to that level, it shouldn't be an issue. This works for some places, as for example LSE has an extra taught year in their (at least economics) PhD programme to match the US system. There's also the issue that the US tends to be where the leading academics for almost any social science subject I know of are, which means when it comes to having a supervisor with clout it's much harder with the UK PhD. Plus there's the sheer driven, career orientated nature of PhDs in the UK - I remember my brother saying he found it quite a culture shock when he spent a summer researching there.

This was my thoughts - I suppose the flipside of it is that even if I were to go over there, if I came back I'd probably be screwed too, since I would be older and have less of a publications history. My supe is a visiting prof at MIT so maybe that would help in the 'connections' department but God knows, really. It's just an idea I'm throwing up in the air. A depressing idea as it turns out :p:

For policy jobs, I'd be very surprised if it makes much difference, since their unlikely to know the difference between a UK and US PhD. They're more likely to be prestige whores though, as they more closely resemble a 'normal' employer, recognising 'branded' university names but not knowing in detail what it entails. I know a few people with UK PhDs who've gone into US policy jobs.

Aye - remind me why I didn't go to Oxford again?!

Reply 3988

LLB Kevin

1

IlexAquifolium

Aye - remind me why I didn't go to Oxford again?!

Where did you go?

Reply 3989

Kitty Pimms

17

LLB Kevin

Where did you go?

The other university in the city in which you did your undergrad. :yes:

Did my undergrad at Birmingham.

Reply 3990

PQ

OP

Clearing and Applications Advisor, Universities Forum Helper

21

IlexAquifolium

The other university in the city in which you did your undergrad. :yes:

Did my undergrad at Birmingham.

oooooh cryptic

my first is in purple but not in sink
etyc etc...

Reply 3991

Kitty Pimms

17

PQ

oooooh cryptic

my first is in purple but not in sink
etyc etc...

I am nothing if not enigmatic :ninjagirl:

I'm just trying to keep the pesky undergrads off my tail :yes:

Reply 3992

The Boosh

17

IlexAquifolium

This was my thoughts - I suppose the flipside of it is that even if I were to go over there, if I came back I'd probably be screwed too, since I would be older and have less of a publications history. My supe is a visiting prof at MIT so maybe that would help in the 'connections' department but God knows, really. It's just an idea I'm throwing up in the air. A depressing idea as it turns out :p:

I don't know where the original quote is, but I saw the question/reply that Drogue gave and wanted to throw a few things in the mix (from reflection upon personal experience).

The main thing to ask is whether the structure of the academic employment ladder in USA/Canada resembles the British structure. I suspect that it may not, but you never know. Obviously, British doctoral grads try to find a post-doc position (research fellowships, research associate posts etc). Do the other countries have this? Or is their first step on the ladder similar to our lectureship (perhaps a more junior version)? In the UK it's almost impossible for a fresh doctoral grad (in our position) to go straight into a lectureship without a few years of post-doc level employment (which is where a lot of teaching, research, grant-winning and publication writing takes place). As Drogue somewhat implies, the USA/Canadian positions may be seen (?) as a single route incorporating all of our British segments (masters-PhD-fellowship, etc) so the leap from our PhD to their first position ("assistant professor"?) is going to be a challenge.

There are things you can do to improve your CV and make yourself more appealing to alternative academic job ladders (by gaining some of the experiences that USA/Canadian students enjoy). Some PhD graduates, over the course of their student life, may have a chance to:

1. spend a year (or more) completing one (or more) masters;
2. spend time lecturing and tutoring;
3. spend time working on additional research projects;
4. spend time presenting at conferences and writing academic papers;
5. spend time applying for external funding.

Obviously, this isn't always the case, and it would be rare for somebody to have done all of these things. However, some students are in a position where they can do some or all of these activities, and by doing so, shape their CVs so they at least resemble the USA/Canadian CVs (somewhat). The main problem is time. If you take on too many of these activities - like me - you PhD will be overdue ( :o:

). If you take on too little, you graduate with no additional CV boosts (i.e. most of my peers).

It really is catch 22. From my own perspective, I've done postgrad work for the same length of time as an American PhD, and during that time I've gained various qualifications and done everything on that list, but it wasn't possible for me to squeeze all of this into 3 years. My journey has been more like 6 years (which has its pros and cons). I think this is why different countries have different PhD systems.

One anecdote: At my first conference I was with a group of Canadians who were graduates and employees of Toronto. They were telling me that they preferred the British PhD system (though they did undertake the EdD rather than PhD). I was told that the British system was more focused, shorter, and had less hoops to jump through. For them, the first couple of years was spent in lecturers, exams, and doing course work, and the last years were dedicated to thesis-work. The length was 4-6 years (which is like a 1+3 [+1 "write up year" :p:

]). Whilst this is only one small group of academics telling me about how they value the British PhD, to me it's an indication that British postdocs are not always in a bad position.

Another quick anecdote: In my Aussie interview, it became apparent that our 1+3 system, in which students are given research training, is something which is lacking in some parts of Australia. I applied for a research position, and could talk about research methodology, which I was commended upon during the interview itself. You too have the research masters, so you already have a big advantage in some systems (where such focused training is lacking).

So yeah, food for thought. At the end of the day, a lot of this is about how you present yourself in certain job markets, and there are things you can do to shift your CV in one direction or another depending on job advert. Be pro-active and don't be afraid to ask for work at the university.

Edit: sorry for the lengthy post, didn't realise I had written so much !!!

Reply 3993

Kitty Pimms

17

Thank you Boosh - I've bookmarked that post! As you say, food for thought.

Reply 3994

The Boosh

17

IlexAquifolium

Thank you Boosh - I've bookmarked that post! As you say, food for thought.

No probs. That was an intense amount of words to digest for what was meant to be a simple answer to a simple question.

I've just been scanning the backlog of posts and noticed your ANU opportunity. I keep hearing about how international work is really valued and looks great on the CV. Clearly, with the RAE focused on quality of "international" standing, the ESRC etc arranging inter-university exchanges and research opportunities abroad, and with conference themes about "synergy" and "breaking down barriers", the ANU opportunity sounds ideal. Will go you for it? Or are do you have personal reasons to stay (partner, house, etc)?

Edit: a lot of research grants are of an international nature as well (I'm supposed to be looking for international funds with another Aussie uni, apparently there are special pots of cash for international collaboration projects)/. The Marie Curie thing is to get academics to reside in different countires and spread the skills, I was tempted by a Dublin post a few months ago, but didn't like the residency attachment).

Reply 3995

Kitty Pimms

17

The Boosh

No probs. That was an intense amount of words to digest for what was meant to be a simple answer to a simple question.

I've just been scanning the backlog of posts and noticed your ANU opportunity. I keep hearing about how international work is really valued and looks great on the CV. Clearly, with the RAE focused on quality of "international" standing, the ESRC etc arranging inter-university exchanges and research opportunities abroad, and with conference themes about "synergy" and "breaking down barriers", the ANU opportunity sounds ideal. Will go you for it? Or are do you have personal reasons to stay (partner, house, etc)?

I'm quite divided about it for those reasons. I really don't know quite what I want to do TBH. Times be quite strange for me at the moment, I'm hoping that I'll have a better idea by the end of the year of quite what I want to do with myself. :o:

Reply 3996

The Boosh

17

IlexAquifolium

I'm quite divided about it for those reasons. I really don't know quite what I want to do TBH. Times be quite strange for me at the moment, I'm hoping that I'll have a better idea by the end of the year of quite what I want to do with myself. :o:

I think I understand where you are coming from. I broke down in tears when considering the move to Australia - I've only ever cried at a funeral as an adult (and during a break up about 8 years ago). I'm usually solid as a rock and the clear thinking one during emotional stress. It wasn't until such opportunities came along that I realised where my heart was. It's amazing how much I didn't know about myself!

Reply 3997

Kitty Pimms

17

The Boosh

I think I understand where you are coming from. I broke down in tears when considering the move to Australia - I've only ever cried at a funeral as an adult (and during a break up about 8 years ago). I'm usually solid as a rock and the clear thinking one during emotional stress. It wasn't until such opportunities came along that I realised where my heart was. It's amazing how much I didn't know about myself!

Aww bless you Boosh! I was always quite sure I'd stick in this country but recent events have given me a bit of a mid-life crisis so I've been scratching my head a bit about what 'plan b' might consist of. Hopefully I'll have a moment like that (although hopefully without the crying!) that reminds me why I do the things I do. TBF I'm fairly sure that I'm depressed at the moment (but really don't want to go to the docs) so that's making it very hard to make the right decisions because the emotional 'gut' responses that always guide just aren't happening. Bah. (Must stop moaning in GOGSoc).

Reply 3998

musicbloke

17

IlexAquifolium

Hopefully I'll have a moment like that (although hopefully without the crying!) that reminds me why I do the things I do.

Maybe such a moment will make you realise the only way not to cry is not to work on an onion farm anymore.

MB

Reply 3999

musicbloke

17

I'm feeling a massive amount of hate towards work today. They've just shown me the membership forms for this organisation, for new members (we'll be getting a few hundred of these things in a couple of weeks) and it's the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time. No-one's bothered to think "We should design this form in line with the database" and the consequence is that inputting the information takes much longer than it should, and there's a much greater chance of error, just because you're jumping between pages to get to different fields. That's ignoring the fact that they've missed out boxed for bits of data we actually need. I think I might offer to redesign the form, but it kind of feels like more than my job's worth.

MB

GOGSoc the Third

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