michael howard is now officially the leader of the tory party

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llama boy
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#181
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#181
(Original post by edders)
its really not that hard to understand. the NHS doesnt pay for ALL the private healthcare costs. for eg. if the NHS paid 50% of the private costs 50% would be left for the NHS, as opposed to 100% being used up if theyd got the treatment on the NHS.
The point being that private treatment is much more expensive than NHS treatment for any number of reasons (economies of scale, luxury rooms, have to pay doctors more, etc etc etc) and therefore that is in no way a fair comparison.
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not1
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#182
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#182
(Original post by llama boy)
The point being that private treatment is much more expensive than NHS treatment for any number of reasons (economies of scale, luxury rooms, have to pay doctors more, etc etc etc) and therefore that is in no way a fair comparison.
ie private treatment is better so its unsuprising that people want it. my argument still stands; the NHS will be better off if more people go private.
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Unregistered
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#183
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#183
(Original post by edders)
ie private treatment is better so its unsuprising that people want it. my argument still stands; the NHS will be better off if more people go private.
Not true! Look what's happened to education.
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not1
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#184
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#184
(Original post by Unregistered)
Not true! Look what's happened to education.
would you like to tell me what you think has happened?
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llama boy
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#185
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#185
(Original post by edders)
ie private treatment is better so its unsurprising that people want it.
I'm not sure what in my post could be taken to mean that (luxury rooms maybe?!). Certainly there is nothing in there that justifies a two tier health service.
my argument still stands; the NHS will be better off if more people go private.
You know this do you? You've seen the figures? Coz one thing is sure as hell, the tories aren't doing this because it will benefit the NHS, and once it comes into practice we'll see the NHS run down even further simply because their core voters are happy going private.
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Unregistered
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#186
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#186
(Original post by edders)
would you like to tell me what you think has happened?
You've been too long with Vienna95 - lol
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not1
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#187
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#187
(Original post by llama boy)
You know this do you? You've seen the figures? Coz one thing is sure as hell, the tories aren't doing this because it will benefit the NHS, and once it comes into practice we'll see the NHS run down even further simply because their core voters are happy going private.
i ask you the same question....do you know that it will be bad for the NHS? youre just speculating through ideologically-tinted glasses.
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not1
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#188
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#188
(Original post by Unregistered)
You've been too long with Vienna95 - lol
lol no answer the question
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PQ
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#189
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#189
My problem with the voucher scheme is that *if* it works then it will immediately fail - if the NHS is improved so much by people easing the burden and going private then it wont take long before those same people decide to save their money and use the free and improved NHS - taking us back to square one with the NHS oversubscribed and not enough money...using people and competition to balance the books is dangerous because people are by their very anture unpredictable.
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Unregistered
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#190
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#190
(Original post by edders)
lol no answer the question
So many parents who feel there has been a drop in standards of behaviour and suchlike in state school, and who have the financial means, have been taking their children out of these schools and placing them in fee-paying schools. This have a knock-on effect of not having a wide mix of children from all backgrounds, those remaining increasingly come from deprived backgrounds and the problems escalate.
You said in your reply quoted above "no answer the question" but I took that to mean now so I've done so.
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not1
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#191
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#191
(Original post by Pencil Queen)
My problem with the voucher scheme is that *if* it works then it will immediately fail - if the NHS is improved so much by people easing the burden and going private then it wont take long before those same people decide to save their money and use the free and improved NHS - taking us back to square one with the NHS oversubscribed and not enough money...using people and competition to balance the books is dangerous because people are by their very anture unpredictable.
actually i think once youve made the transition from the NHS to sampling private healthcare you wouldnt want to go back to the NHS, because private healthcare will give a better service.
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Vienna
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#192
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#192
(Original post by edders)
actually i think once youve made the transition from the NHS to sampling private healthcare you wouldnt want to go back to the NHS, because private healthcare will give a better service.
if you read the tory proposals, they have researched a number of incentives to avoid this paradox. again, alot of european countries have identical systems in place.
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not1
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#193
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#193
(Original post by Unregistered)
So many parents who feel there has been a drop in standards of behaviour and suchlike in state school, and who have the financial means, have been taking their children out of these schools and placing them in fee-paying schools. This have a knock-on effect of not having a wide mix of children from all backgrounds, those remaining increasingly come from deprived backgrounds and the problems escalate.
You said in your reply quoted above "no answer the question" but I took that to mean now so I've done so.
i dont see how having lots of children of a 'deprived' background make a school worse; you might think that the school would be able to better cater for their needs if there was a narrower demographic.
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pkonline
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#194
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#194
If the rich go to private healthcare then the Tories believe that the NHS will be so much better for those who will use it - ie. the poor. Short-term tru it will cut waiting lists which will benefit everyone but longer-term the NHS will have reduced funding (NHS will pay out for private treatment) which will make long-term things like buying beds etc worser off and reduce the capacity.

Left with a 2 tier system.
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pkonline
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#195
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#195
(Original post by vienna95)
if you read the tory proposals, they have researched a number of incentives to avoid this paradox. again, alot of european countries have identical systems in place.
In Britain we believe in free healthcare at the point of use, for anyone.
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not1
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#196
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#196
(Original post by pkonline)
In Britain we believe in free healthcare at the point of use, for anyone.
yes... and private healthcare if you can afford it
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pkonline
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#197
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#197
(Original post by edders)
yes... and private healthcare if you can afford it
No, as I said, the NHS is there for everyone to use.
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not1
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#198
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#198
(Original post by pkonline)
No, as I said, the NHS is there for everyone to use.
yes... and private healthcare if you can afford it :rolleyes:
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pkonline
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#199
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#199
(Original post by edders)
yes... and private healthcare if you can afford it :rolleyes:
Not really. Anyone, rich and poor, can and do use the NHS. Private care is much smaller than in other countries.
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Unregistered
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#200
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#200
This voucher scheme is just an excuse for tories to get some of their private healthcare costs payed for, when they would have paid the full amount anyway.

However, I can see the flipside to this argument (but im not a Tory lol), is that people who go private STILL pay National Insurance, and so deserve some of this paid back to them, as they arent using it (The NHS).

However, the flipside to that argument is, that most people who go private are middle-high earners (eg. the working class rarely pay for private healthcare when they can have it free on the NHS). These middle-high earners have generally had an education which enabled them to be high-earners. And therefore they are repaying their schooling back into society.

It is a stupid argument however (trying not to sound crude but failing ;-), that if working class people are given an incentive to go private .. they will. I am telling you now, they wont!!! This scheme wont ease up pressure on the NHS, because the vast majority of current users will still use the NHS even if they were offered incentives.

In my opinion, it is an excuse for the Tories to have their private healthcare subsidised (which they would have paid for anyway). I think its a good proposal in attracting the middle/upper classes, but the tories need more than this if they want to be the government in 2005.
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