Scouts adopt Islamic pledge Watch

MFX1209
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http://www.christian.org.uk/news/200...slamic-pledge/


Is this good or bad? But before you comment, PLEASE BE AWARE: I know all of the Islamophobes and hate mongers have given their opinion. I've read them . http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004...al.html#latest This is an article from Daniel Pipes website. Obviously, he sees this as a threat! I mean anything to do with Islam and Moslems is going to be of interest to him isn't it? For a man with an honourary doctorate from Yeshiva University and a Guardian of Zion Award :shifty:

Just take a look at his record. He supported and backed Saddam Hussein against Iran and pleaded with the US government to supply the dictator with weapons to fight Iran. Then he backed invading Iraq and toppling Saddam :shifty: These kind of people are sick. They are hypocrites and have only one agenda -Israel. They follow whatever line of enquiry when it comes to Moslems and the Middle East and then only criterion that suits their own. They don't give a damn about the US or Britain, or EVEN SCOTLAND AND THE SCOUTS MOVEMENT.


The PLEDGE. I think its quite alright. What's wrong with it? Theres even an American Bible with "Allah" in it. Because the Bible authorities decided it was an authentic term for Christians to use. It isn't an alien expression.

Only the HATE MONGERS are peddling this as an ALIEN idea. They are trying to WIND UP the masses by creating SHOCK! Some of these people aren't even Christians themselves :shifty: What do they seek?

If Allah means Elohim or Ellah in the Old Testament, its saying the same thing is it not? If the Scouts want to give allegiance to G_d in another language, the same that CHRISTIANS use in some Middle Eastern countries then what's wrong with it? Jesus spoke ENGLISH? lol!

Why are such people against it? What's their problem?

Why do the4y like to stir up things? What's his business anyway? :shifty:

It came to my attention that they are giving allegiance to G_d. Not Mohammad.

What do you say? What do you think the Islamophobes ARE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS? CAN YOU SEE RIGHT THROUGH IT?
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Kolya
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I have no problem with it. Indeed, I even think the Scout movement should go further and open itself to those who would prefer pledging to no god. The Scout movement is a good organization, and I do not think allowing those of differing beliefs to abstain from the "God and the Queen" pledge would change that.
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AsConfusedStudent=)
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(Original post by MFX1209)
http://www.christian.org.uk/news/200...slamic-pledge/

This is an article from Daniel Pipes website. Obviously, he sees this as a threat! I mean anything to do with Islam and Moslems is going to be of interest to him isn't it? For a man with an honourary doctorate from Yeshiva University and a Guardian of Zion Award :shifty:

Just take a look at his record. He supported and backed Saddam Hussein against Iran and pleaded with the US government to supply the dictator with weapons to fight Iran. Then he backed invading Iraq and toppling Saddam :shifty: These kind of people are sick. They are hypocrites and have only one agenda -Israel. They follow whatever line of enquiry when it comes to Moslems and the Middle East and then only criterion that suits their own. They don't give a damn about the US or Britain, or EVEN SCOTLAND AND THE SCOUTS MOVEMENT.
I agree! What Slimy b*tches some people are. Not suprising!

Anyway I don't think it is that bad.
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SimonM
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Heh, this is when the hardcore atheists come out ranting about how they can't be scout leaders...

WHO CARES?! We only tend to say the promise and laws once or twice a year, and it has never been a major issue
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myrtille
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Yeah, I think it's fine.

I also agree with Kolya.

I ultimately quit Guides because they kept trying to make me go to church.

The Guide promise was (a long time ago, I believe) changed to say "to love my God" rather than just "God" in order to be more inclusive. As a child, I took the promise, accepting that as I had no God, that part was just meaningless. In fact, later, when the arguments began (and became pretty much a weekly occurence), the one Guide leader who agreed with me, said that for her, the words "my God" in the promise might as well refer to science, as her way of understanding the world.

Scouts and Guides are in a weird, in-between position these days. It's a position that made sense in it's earlier days, when the majority of people in the UK were Christians. But today, they're somewhere on the border between a secular youth club, and a religious organisation. The actual meetings are usually totally secular, but the promise and their involvement in local churches means that they aren't. And it doesn't work.
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Slumpy
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(Original post by SimonM)
Heh, this is when the hardcore atheists come out ranting about how they can't be scout leaders...

WHO CARES?!
lol, you can so.
You just say the promise, and meh.
Also, I was under the impression from young leader training that any faith was already allowed, so I don't see that this is news..
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terpineol
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I must say, when I was in scouting I regarded the religious aspect of the pledge to be a complete joke, as I think did everyone else.

Religious conviction is rather a lot rarer than many people seem to think in my experience.
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SimonM
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(Original post by Slumpy)
lol, you can so.
You just say the promise, and meh.
Also, I was under the impression from young leader training that any faith was already allowed, so I don't see that this is news..
You're just wrong.

Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position.
From ScoutBase.org.uk
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Slumpy
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Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position.
We've certainly had atheist leaders, and certainly at least some of our group was atheistic.
You just say the promise, and there's no big deal.
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tazarooni89
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If our coins can refer to God as "Deus" then our scouts can refer to him as "Allah" just as easily. It's just a language...

There's nothing particularly Islamic about it. Christians/Jews/Everyone in the Middle East often refer to God as "Allah".
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Frodz
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HAHAHAHAHA

Only a Muslim could turn a topic about Islamic oaths in a Christian organisation into a rant about Israel and Jews........

:rolleyes:


(Original post by MFX1209)
If Allah means Elohim or Ellah in the Old Testament, its saying the same thing is it not? If the Scouts want to give allegiance to G_d in another language, the same that CHRISTIANS use in some Middle Eastern countries then what's wrong with it? Jesus spoke ENGLISH? lol!
Well if you really want to be a pedant......

While Allah has the etymology of "El", the Semitic concept of a "personal god", Mohammed's teachings make this definition null and void.

Allah =/= God, only Muslims claim that.

The Christians using the word Allah are not referring to the Islamic concept of a deity but the Semitic personal form.
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SimonM
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(Original post by Slumpy)
We've certainly had atheist leaders, and certainly at least some of our group was atheistic.
You just say the promise, and there's no big deal.
Yes, but they don't technically allow it. Sure, I'm sure lots of leaders don't believe, but that isn't the point. The association is clear on their position. They don't like atheists.

Want more sources?

How about this for clear

Scouting recognises that there are diverse ways in which God may appear to mankind. It is possible for young people to be unsure of the existence of God and remain a Member of the Association, but it is not possible for an atheist to hold a Warrant as a Leader.
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Lucyyy
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(Original post by Keziah)

Scouts and Guides are in a weird, in-between position these days. It's a position that made sense in it's earlier days, when the majority of people in the UK were Christians. But today, they're somewhere on the border between a secular youth club, and a religious organisation. The actual meetings are usually totally secular, but the promise and their involvement in local churches means that they aren't. And it doesn't work.
But this varies so much between units. I've been involved in Guiding for 12 years, I'm a young leader for my mother's unit - we go to church all of once or twice a year, usually a Thinking Day service and a christingle/carol service. We don't bombard them with religion, we have very little connection with it in general. But to take religion away from Guiding and Scouting would be taking away a chunk of the basis of it all, and they've both lost enough of their tradition as it is.

I don't see the harm. These promises are never really made with any great meaning behind them, it's just a recital of words to gain your place in the movement.
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Captain Biggles
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Utterly, utterly pointless. :rolleyes:
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Slumpy
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(Original post by SimonM)
Yes, but they don't technically allow it. Sure, I'm sure lots of leaders don't believe, but that isn't the point. The association is clear on their position. They don't like atheists.

Want more sources?

How about this for clear
I'll accept that, that's the line they're taking.
However:
but it is not possible for an atheist to hold a Warrant as a Leader.
That's untrue, as you've conceded above.
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SimonM
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(Original post by Slumpy)
I'll accept that, that's the line they're taking.
However:

That's untrue, as you've conceded above.
No, atheists who are open about it wont get a warrant. I mean, they can't "check" what you believe so people can get around it. The point is, the Scouting movement, which acknowledges all other religions, cannot accept atheism. Great message of tolerance guys.
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BenjiDeane
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I'm not a fan of this Islamic pledge. I am in no way at all against foreigners living in our country but I do think that, combined with the introduction of Sharia Law courts in Britain, this country is a few steps away from Muslim's or other race's superiority here. Bad times.
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SimonM
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(Original post by BenjiDeane)
I'm not a fan of this Islamic pledge. I am in no way at all against foreigners living in our country but I do think that, combined with the introduction of Sharia Law courts in Britain, this country is a few steps away from Muslim's or other race's superiority here. Bad times.
Britain has never been secular, why should Islam be any worse than Christianity?
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Slumpy
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(Original post by SimonM)
No, atheists who are open about it wont get a warrant. I mean, they can't "check" what you believe so people can get around it. The point is, the Scouting movement, which acknowledges all other religions, cannot accept atheism. Great message of tolerance guys.
Mm, I can't remember if the open atheists I know have warrants...we've certainly got openly atheist assistant leaders, but I forget if they need warrants?
Either way, you're probably right, but I'm not too bothered by it all.
Also, I don't know if they'd acknowledge people identifying as 'jedi', but I'd be inclined to try:p:
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Kolya
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(Original post by SimonM)
Heh, this is when the hardcore atheists come out ranting about how they can't be scout leaders...

WHO CARES?! We only tend to say the promise and laws once or twice a year, and it has never been a major issue
Hmm, I care, Simon. I enjoyed my time in the Scouts and I am interested, in the future, in becoming a helper/leader. You are right in saying it is not a major issue, but it is simply uncomfortable to have to lie. It's only because I'm so laid back about my beliefs that I can imagine lying. Imagine if the Scout movement was open to everyone except Jews. Of course, Jews could join; they would just have to lie about being Jewish "one or twice a year". The outrage would be incredible.

So maybe it's not a major issue, but it makes people uncomfortable for stupid reasons like "tradition", and the Scout movement should not, Simon, be about forcing people to pretend they are something that they aren't. When there is such a desperate shortage of leaders, why on earth would they turn people away for such a stupid reason? It's a self-destructive policy, and it makes me sad.
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