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    I didn't know you could teach in a secondary school as a unqualified teacher.

    Can someone verify this please, if so any links further info would be appreciated.

    "J A A C K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    [q1]> I didn't know you could teach in a secondary school as a unqualified teacher.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> Can someone verify this please, if so any links further info would be appreciated.[/q1]

    It is *possible* to teach in a school as an unqualified teacher but only if the school cannot get a
    suitable *qualified* candidate.

    However, one should be aware here of the definition of *qualified* - its means the teacher has a
    PGCE or B.Ed or other qualification that carries what is called "Qualified Teacher Status" - that is
    you have a number issued by the DfES.

    "Unqualified" on the other hand is often not so unqualified as it would seem! Both overseas trained
    teachers ( from NZ and Australia and USA for example) and FE teachers ( those who most usually teach
    students from 14 to adult in Further Education Colleges , usually specialising at A level, GNVQ,
    GCSE etc are classed as "unqualified". Both these groups will often have subject degrees and higher
    degrees and certificates of Education or PGCE or B.Ed and many FE teachers also have M.Ed
    qualifications. What neither of these groups have at the moment ( things are due to change) is
    recognition by the DfEs and the magic DfEs number for QTS. It is often these teachers you will find
    teaching in schools classified as Unqualified.

    Oh I see. So how about those with D32 and D33 (workplace qualifications)... would they be allowed to
    enter teaching as a unqualified candidate??

    TIA

    "lurker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> "J A A C K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q1]
    [q2]> > I didn't know you could teach in a secondary school as a unqualified teacher.[/q2]
    [q2]> >[/q2]
    [q2]> > Can someone verify this please, if so any links further info would be appreciated.[/q2]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> It is *possible* to teach in a school as an unqualified teacher but only[/q1]
    if
    [q1]> the school cannot get a suitable *qualified* candidate.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> However, one should be aware here of the definition of *qualified* - its means the teacher has a[/q1]
    [q1]> PGCE or B.Ed or other qualification that carries what is called "Qualified Teacher Status" - that[/q1]
    [q1]> is you have a number[/q1]
    issued
    [q1]> by the DfES.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> "Unqualified" on the other hand is often not so unqualified as it would seem! Both overseas[/q1]
    [q1]> trained teachers ( from NZ and Australia and USA for[/q1]
    example)
    [q1]> and FE teachers ( those who most usually teach students from 14 to adult[/q1]
    in
    [q1]> Further Education Colleges , usually specialising at A level, GNVQ, GCSE[/q1]
    etc
    [q1]> are classed as "unqualified". Both these groups will often have subject degrees and higher degrees[/q1]
    [q1]> and certificates of Education or PGCE or B.Ed[/q1]
    and
    [q1]> many FE teachers also have M.Ed qualifications. What neither of these groups have at the moment ([/q1]
    [q1]> things are due to change) is recognition by[/q1]
    the
    [q1]> DfEs and the magic DfEs number for QTS. It is often these teachers you will find teaching in[/q1]
    [q1]> schools classified as Unqualified.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]

    "J A A C K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> Oh I see. So how about those with D32 and D33 (workplace[/q1]
    qualifications)...
    [q1]> would they be allowed to enter teaching as a unqualified candidate??[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> TIA[/q1]

    I wouldn't have thought there would be much call for that in school. Even with the new 14+
    vocational courses coming online most schools can recruit a qualified FE teacher ( and FE teachers
    who could be recruited can qualify for QTS as of September, on an eight week course).

    I know of several qualified (QTS) teachers who teach GNVQ/AVCE who have taken these assessor
    qualifications as supplemental to their teaching qualifications and their degrees in order to teach
    vocational courses to students in school. In fact I have them myself because I used to teach the
    GNVQ and NNEB courses in FE. Most FE teachers with cert ed also already have them.

    These days you would even be hard pushed to get a post in FE with just assessor qualifications. The
    rules in FE now require all FE/AE teachers to be qualified within the next two years and all new
    entrants to FE must have or obtain a Cert Ed . There is even a suggestion from FENTO that in due
    course ( before 2006) all FE teachers in vocational and workplace type courses will need to get a
    BEd or BA in Education if they dont have a degree tagged onto their Cert Eds.

    Having said that, there is nothing stopping you trying if you see a post you would like to apply for
    and you have the other subject based qualifications for. There is a scheme to allow non graduates to
    train as teachers called the Registered teacher training programme which allows you to get a degree
    and QTS whilst working in school, but unlike the graduate teacher training programme ( for graduates
    working in school without QTS) most schools are reluctant to take on RTTP candidates.

    lurker wrote:

    snip
    [q1]> ( and FE teachers who could be recruited can qualify for QTS as of September, on an eight week[/q1]
    [q1]> course).[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    snip

    Do you have more details about this? I have a former FE teacher working with me who is expecting to
    take considerably longer to get QTS.

    --
    Murray

    "Murray Coldwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    [q1]> lurker wrote:[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> snip[/q1]
    [q2]> > ( and FE teachers who could be recruited can qualify for QTS as of September, on an eight week[/q2]
    [q2]> > course).[/q2]
    [q2]> >[/q2]
    [q1]> snip[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> Do you have more details about this? I have a former FE teacher working with me who is expecting[/q1]
    [q1]> to take considerably longer to get QTS.[/q1]

    Well, it all depends on what qualifications and experience you have. The two quickest routes I know
    or have heard of are

    a) Using Statutory Instrument of 2001 ( although I suspect this will not be of use to your friend,
    since its for FE teachers who are still working in FE when they apply.) Basically this allows a
    FE teacher with a degree, and FE Cert Ed or PGCE ( FE/HE) and experience of teaching 14 -18 year
    olds in FE to get QTS without any further training , qualifications or anything else.

    b)Depending on experience and qualifications again, applying to a DRB ( PGCE provider) for what is
    known as "Assessment Only" for QTS. Again graduates only. You have to get a provider who offers a
    modular route for QTS PGCE and then ask them to APL and APEL your cert ed and your teaching
    experience. Should take about six weeks to complete assessments. This is the one I referred to
    when I suggested six weeks to get QTS. Most FE teachers with a degree, a cert ed and experience of
    teaching in schools should be able to use this route.

    There is another route is supposed to be coming online in September 2002 by statutory Instrument but
    I dont know what details for this are.

    c)Then there is a shortened GTP which takes about three months if you have anything like experience
    and already have acert ed or PGCE for FE. can take longer though if you dont.

    d) there is currently talk of yet another QTS route which is to be added to the existing cert Ed and
    PGCE FE training which will give QTS as well as QTFE for FE teachers. Apparently two modules -
    one on national curriculum and one on developmental psychology are to be added as options to give
    QTS off the back of the existing Cert ed in FE. Since most FE teachers already do NC ( its called
    Adult basic skills curriculum , buts actually the same as NC and most FE Certs also do
    developmental psychology in learning theories, this is a formality to APL)

    Transferring from FE to secondary school is pretty ad hoc at the moment as no one seems to know
    exactly what rules are what! Lots of FE teachers doing it though.

    By 2006 apparently all FE teachers with QTFE ( or if you prefer the old Cert Ed and PGCE for FE -
    not C&G 7307 !) will actually be able to get QTS on application or so the theory goes

    "J A A C K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    [q1]> I didn't know you could teach in a secondary school as a unqualified teacher.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> Can someone verify this please, if so any links further info would be appreciated.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]

    We had an ex-sixth former teaching a couple of years back who didn't even have a degree.

    We regularly have teachers in the arts who are not qualified teachers and we are an arts college.

    However all these staff are AFAIK paid on a lower salary scale.

    In the current climate it is so difficult to recruit staff that it seems anyone half decent
    is welcome.

    FWIW we have had some great 'unqualified staff' (and some awful!) who are much better than some of
    the absolutely awful recent NQT's (not in the arts).

    I think the standards in training teachers are going way down because of the shortage.

    This matches the fact that schools have much lower standards. The current joke at our school is that
    if you have been on a day trip to france then you are qualified to teach french!

    --
    mvn

    In article <[email protected]>, mark.norwood
    <[email protected]> writes
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]>This matches the fact that schools have much lower standards. The current joke at our school is[/q1]
    [q1]>that if you have been on a day trip to france then you are qualified to teach french![/q1]

    I think most educated people would spell France with a capital letter. I hope you are not a teacher
    of English.

    Martin Nicholson, Daventry, UK

    International Astronomical Union's Minor Planet Centre - Observatory Code 456
    http://www.gcse-ict.info/astronomy/front.htm

    "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    [q1]> However all these staff are AFAIK paid on a lower salary scale.[/q1]

    This is at the descretion of the school, they may choose to pay at qualified rates for an
    unqualified teacher if they are that desperate!

    Jo

    "Martin Nicholson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    [q1]> In article <[email protected]>, mark.norwood[/q1]
    [q1]> <[email protected]> writes[/q1]
    [q2]> >[/q2]
    [q2]> >This matches the fact that schools have much lower standards. The current joke at our school is[/q2]
    [q2]> >that if you have been on a day trip to france then[/q2]
    you
    [q2]> >are qualified to teach french![/q2]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> I think most educated people would spell france with a capital letter. I hope you are not a[/q1]
    [q1]> teacher of english.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]

    oh a spelling troll. how very original.

    what a sad ****.

    --
    mvn

    On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:36:51 +0100, Martin Nicholson <[email protected]> wrote:

    [q1]>I think most educated people would spell France with a capital letter. I hope you are not a teacher[/q1]
    [q1]>of English.[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]>Martin Nicholson, Daventry, UK[/q1]

    Excellent.

    Possibly written by one of those unqualified teachers.

    On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:44:31 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [q1]>what a sad ****.[/q1]

    Raising the level of the debate as ever.
    ******************************** ****
    **** http://user1951.tripod.com ****
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    "User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> Raising the level of the debate as ever.[/q1]

    I do try my best, but it is difficult when a troll like Martin comes along not to retaliate
    sometimes.

    I presume you have never done the same?

    --
    mvn

    In article <[email protected] o.uk>, Martin Nicholson
    <[email protected]> writes:

    [q2]>>This matches the fact that schools have much lower standards. The current joke at our school is[/q2]
    [q2]>>that if you have been on a day trip to france then you are qualified to teach french![/q2]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]>I think most educated people would spell France with a capital letter. I hope you are not a teacher[/q1]
    [q1]>of English.[/q1]

    Depends on whether or not you like france!! ;-)

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Sandi

    Remove NoSpam to reply.

    On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:55:32 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [q1]>I presume you have never done the same?[/q1]

    I expect you can provide evidence Or does the assertion require none?

    The point is very simple. You do not debate with stupid people. If they are stupid there is no point
    in debating with them. If they are not stupid then don't say they are.
    ******************************** ****
    **** http://user1951.tripod.com ****
    Information about films,
    Jack London, Lara Croft
    Shakespeare and ICT program of study
    last updated 30 05 2002

    "User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    [q1]> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:55:32 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q2]> >I presume you have never done the same?[/q2]
    [q1]>[/q1]
    [q1]> I expect you can provide evidence Or does the assertion require none?[/q1]
    [q1]>[/q1]

    Evidence of what exactly? I am pointing out that everyone from time to time will answer back to
    trolls. Some would even say you are doing the same with me ;o)

    [q1]> The point is very simple. You do not debate with stupid people. If they are stupid there is no[/q1]
    [q1]> point in debating with them. If they are not stupid then don't say they are.[/q1]

    Who said anyone was stupid? Come on, do try to keep up!

    --
    mvn

    On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:45:17 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [q1]>Who said anyone was stupid? Come on, do try to keep up![/q1]

    Read this carefully.

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    http://user1951.tripod.com Education Education Education
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