Rememberance Sunday-Your Views

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Albion
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#21
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#21
I bought a poppy and watched the memorial service on telly this morning and I think its an excellent thing to show that we do still give a damn about all the people who have given their lives so that we can remain free. I really honestly do appreciate it so much and I don't know how many other young people do these days, lots I would hope although I have my doubts. Watching that on television this morning really made it hit home how sad war really is. I also personally value my liberty a great deal, its not something that should be taken for granted, its come at a very high price.
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Tek
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#22
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#22
May God bless those men who gave their lives so that I may live free.

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" - Churchill.
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ickle_katy
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Danithestudent)
As you all must know, bar those living in a box today was Rememberance Sunday. I took part by selling Poppies yesterday in my town (The only person under 45 to do so) and laying the wreath from the Red Cross this morning at the service at our town's war memorial.
I was just wondering what your views are on this occasion? Did you buy a Poppy? Or did you buy a White Poppy? Anybody been personally affected by the recent War in Iraq, because today i saw many friends from primary school who turned up in their uniform, paying their respects to their friends they lost in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Let me know thanks!
i hadn't know anyone who'd died in a war untill friday, the welsh guy who died in irac on friday- i knew.

sadly to say, today was a rememberence day unlike any other.

love Katy ***
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Elle
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Albion)
I bought a poppy and watched the memorial service on telly this morning and I think its an excellent thing to show that we do still give a damn about all the people who have given their lives so that we can remain free. I really honestly do appreciate it so much and I don't know how many other young people do these days, lots I would hope although I have my doubts. Watching that on television this morning really made it hit home how sad war really is. I also personally value my liberty a great deal, its not something that should be taken for granted, its come at a very high price.
The memorial service does not show that they give a damn. It is the government's way of trying to satisfy the public to think that they do- I watched a bit of it and there were people parading who were blind, lost limbs, badly burnt etc..

A memorial service won't cure those people.. so what if they parade? Why does the government not give them decent pensions and provide adaquete support if they really care?!?

Also why do people feel proud that people have died in war.. ?
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Albion
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Elle)
Also why do people feel proud that people have died in war.. ?
I'd have thought that was because the people who died in a war such as world war two gave their lives for such an important cause. They didn't just shrug when it became obvious Hitler was intent on gaining lands by force, they decided they were not going to let such an arrogant and power mad fool implement his racist and right wing ideas on other countries. Our grandparents generation were not going to stand for it, they were prepared to fight and die to stop him and sadly in thousands of cases thats what it took but they did stop him.

I don't suppose people are proud that they did actually die, but that they were prepared to die to stop someone like Hitler and his ideas from ruining and destroying so many lives. I feel proud that so many British men and women didn't just turn a blind eye but did indeed fight to stop him.
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not1
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Albion)
I feel proud that so many British men and women didn't just turn a blind eye but did indeed fight to stop him.
its not like they could have chosen not to though is it
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Tek
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#27
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(Original post by edders)
its not like they could have chosen not to though is it
Yes they could. Then they'd be branded 'conscientious objectors' and put in prison or whatnot.
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Elle
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Albion)
I'd have thought that was because the people who died in a war such as world war two gave their lives for such an important cause. They didn't just shrug when it became obvious Hitler was intent on gaining lands by force, they decided they were not going to let such an arrogant and power mad fool implement his racist and right wing ideas on other countries. Our grandparents generation were not going to stand for it, they were prepared to fight and die to stop him and sadly in thousands of cases thats what it took but they did stop him.

I don't suppose people are proud that they did actually die, but that they were prepared to die to stop someone like Hitler and his ideas from ruining and destroying so many lives. I feel proud that so many British men and women didn't just turn a blind eye but did indeed fight to stop him.
No I do agree with that. With causes such as World War II where it was necessary to fight a war. What makes me angry is the people who died in the Iraq war- there was no need for that war and so many innocent people lost their lives for a cause that wasn't there. Tony Blair has blood on his hands yet he marched on that parade feeling proud that these men/women had died for him..
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not1
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Tek)
Yes they could. Then they'd be branded 'conscientious objectors' and put in prison or whatnot.
no, if they were labelled conscientious objectors they would have been given non-combat roles eg. medic. otherwise they would have just been branded cowards and locked up. so either you took part or went to prison, basically.
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Tek
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#30
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#30
(Original post by edders)
no, if they were labelled conscientious objectors they would have been given non-combat roles eg. medic. otherwise they would have just been branded cowards and locked up. so either you took part or went to prison, basically.
I wasn't far off
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not1
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Tek)
I wasn't far off
the point is, although there were many individual acts of bravery, most of the people taking part were just along for the ride.
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Albion
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Elle)
No I do agree with that. With causes such as World War II where it was necessary to fight a war. What makes me angry is the people who died in the Iraq war- there was no need for that war and so many innocent people lost their lives for a cause that wasn't there. Tony Blair has blood on his hands yet he marched on that parade feeling proud that these men/women had died for him..
I disagree, its horrible that people have lost their lives to remove Saddam but I really do disagree when you say they've lost their lives for a cause that wasn't there. Even though they havent found any WMD's(yet) that does not mean that these people died for nothing, far from it. The people of Iraq will in time benefit from this war as they will have freedom, civil liberties, a democratic government they can vote out, they won't fear themselves or members of their family "disapearing" never to be seen again cos of a paranoid evil dictator having the ability to do that. The soldiers who died gave up their lives to make Iraq a better place if nothing else.
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llama boy
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Albion)
I'd have thought that was because the people who died in a war such as world war two gave their lives for such an important cause. They didn't just shrug when it became obvious Hitler was intent on gaining lands by force, they decided they were not going to let such an arrogant and power mad fool implement his racist and right wing ideas on other countries. Our grandparents generation were not going to stand for it, they were prepared to fight and die to stop him and sadly in thousands of cases thats what it took but they did stop him.

I don't suppose people are proud that they did actually die, but that they were prepared to die to stop someone like Hitler and his ideas from ruining and destroying so many lives.
Couldn't agree more. Pity that WW2 is such an isolated occurrence in terms of the righteousness of war.
I feel proud that so many British men and women didn't just turn a blind eye but did indeed fight to stop him.
I feel proud that so many people of all nationalities fought to stop him.
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Elle
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Albion)
I disagree, its horrible that people have lost their lives to remove Saddam but I really do disagree when you say they've lost their lives for a cause that wasn't there. Even though they havent found any WMD's(yet) that does not mean that these people died for nothing, far from it. The people of Iraq will in time benefit from this war as they will have freedom, civil liberties, a democratic government they can vote out, they won't fear themselves or members of their family "disapearing" never to be seen again cos of a paranoid evil dictator having the ability to do that. The soldiers who died gave up their lives to make Iraq a better place if nothing else.
Hopefully they will "in time".. but how long do they have to continue to suffer? Many people from Iraq say that the country is now in a worse state. I hope your agreement with the war is from what you have found out and not what the media have told you.
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Tednol
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#35
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#35
(Original post by llama boy)
Likewise the memorial service where all government scum who sent them to die turn up and pretend they give a damn.
To be honest I'm glad there are people out there who have the courage of their convictions and can press for what appears to be proper and good. I'd have happily gone to Iraq to fight. I'd have seen it as a privilage. Now granted I'm from a forces background, but I believed in what the US/UK were fighting for. I would have fought given the choice, rightly or wrongly just because I believed the cause was just. Now you can criticise a lot of things about me if you please, but don't for one moment think someone's anti-war opinion is any more valid, or more objectively right/wrong than my pro-war opinion.

I'd like to point out those government scum were elected by the people we share this country with. Think you can do better? Go on then... impress us all enough and in a few years you'll be the 'government scum'.

``It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.'' --Theodore Roosevelt
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Tednol
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Elle)
No I do agree with that. With causes such as World War II where it was necessary to fight a war. What makes me angry is the people who died in the Iraq war- there was no need for that war and so many innocent people lost their lives for a cause that wasn't there. Tony Blair has blood on his hands yet he marched on that parade feeling proud that these men/women had died for him..
You and I probably read similar reports in papers. We saw the same television pictures, the same websites. Yet you are convinced the war was wrong. I am convinced the war was right.

Can we please stop saying the war was right or the war was wrong? Objectively, who the **** knows?! Certainly not you or I, or anyone on this board. God?! Where is God if he exists?!

Please lets stop saying the war was right or the war was wrong. Instead lets say I feel the war was right, or I feel the war was wrong. Otherwise we will get no where. No one has the monopoly on knowledge.
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Tednol
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#37
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#37
(Original post by llama boy)
I've got so much respect for the working class people who died in most of those wars.
What about the middle-class people who died in the wars? What about my grand-dad who died piloting a Lancaster bomber? Is he not worthy of your respect simply because he was middle-class and educated?

Yes the working class took a battering but don't pretend it was a case of middle-class people sending working-class people to their deaths because that is naive, misinformed, and offensive.
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Tednol
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Elle)
Also why do people feel proud that people have died in war.. ?
Members of my family died, along with members of virtually every family in this country, to protect our rights, liberties, freedoms, and our tomorrow's. These people went to war knowing they may well not come back. Yet they fought with bravery and valour for their friends and families back home.

If that isn't worthy of pride I'd love to know what is.
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Tednol
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#39
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#39
(Original post by llama boy)
Couldn't agree more. Pity that WW2 is such an isolated occurrence in terms of the righteousness of war.

Falklands - Argentina, unprovoked, attack and invade a British owned island. Britain go to get it back.

Gulf War 1 - Iraq, unprovoked, attack and invade a soverign state in the form of Kuwait. Despite repeated requests from the UN, Saddam does not retreat. World acts, and in weeks Kuwait is free.

Gulf War 2 - After 12 years flouting the UN, and in the face of "no-war-end-of-story-we-won't-engage-in-any-diplomacy" politics from France, who were speaking for Western Europe, US and UK attack and remove Saddam from power.

Unrightousness indeed. Feel free to argue my points, they are just opinions afterall.
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llama boy
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Tednol)
To be honest I'm glad there are people out there who have the courage of their convictions and can press for what appears to be proper and good.
I take it you're excluding me from that, then? Why? I'd gladly fight until the death for the forces of oppression are wiped from this planet. Problem is, all nation states come into that category.

I'd have happily gone to Iraq to fight. I'd have seen it as a privilage. Now granted I'm from a forces background, but I believed in what the US/UK were fighting for. I would have fought given the choice, rightly or wrongly just because I believed the cause was just.
And, in a way, I'd agree with the underlying cause of your beliefs - assuming you think that Iraq war was about <insert noble cause here>. IYSWIM.

I'd like to point out those government scum were elected by the people we share this country with. Think you can do better? Go on then... impress us all enough and in a few years you'll be the 'government scum'.
Government is the problem. I've got no intention of becoming the problem. Furthermore, you're also making assumptions about whether those with elected political power can really change things, or whether they are just under the thumbs of those with economic power, from either home or abroad.

What about the middle-class people who died in the wars? What about my grand-dad who died piloting a Lancaster bomber? Is he not worthy of your respect simply because he was middle-class and educated?

Yes the working class took a battering but don't pretend it was a case of middle-class people sending working-class people to their deaths because that is naive, misinformed, and offensive.
You understandably misinterpreted me there. By 'working class' I simply mean all those who don't fit into the ruling class cliche of bosses and their political flunkies.

So yes, I fully respect your granddad.

Falklands - Argentina, unprovoked, attack and invade a British owned island. Britain go to get it back.

Gulf War 1 - Iraq, unprovoked, attack and invade a soverign state in the form of Kuwait. Despite repeated requests from the UN, Saddam does not retreat. World acts, and in weeks Kuwait is free.

Gulf War 2 - After 12 years flouting the UN, and in the face of "no-war-end-of-story-we-won't-engage-in-any-diplomacy" politics from France, who were speaking for Western Europe, US and UK attack and remove Saddam from power.
Falklands - perfect example of nation states fighting over something utterly trivial. It is not worth one soldier's life, either British or Argentinian, for the issue of who 'rules' those islands. It makes so little difference to those who live there, it should make so little difference to the nation states involved. But states don't think like that....

Gulf Wars 1+2 - Neither about anything more than American geopolitical ends in the region. As such, it is not right for 10000s of people to die for whatever military or economic ends the US thinks is in it's interests.
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