Can I say: Anybody helps me checking this car? Watch

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Peng Zhang
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Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?

Thanks.

Peng
Cybercypher
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Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:

[q1]> Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q1]

You need to say "{Can/Will} anybody help me check this car?"

--
Franke: Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language. Grammar 2: Formal rules for the
written language. Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Peng Zhang
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Does that mean that "Can/Will" is omitted here? Thanks. Peng

CyberCypher wrote:

[q1]> Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> You need to say "{Can/Will} anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]> Franke: Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language. Grammar 2: Formal rules for the[/q1]
[q1]> written language. Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.[/q1]
Cybercypher
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Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:

[q1]> CyberCypher wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> > Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> You need to say "{Can/Will} anybody help me check this car?"[/q2]

[q1]> Does that mean that "Can/Will" is omitted here?[/q1]

No, it means you have a choice of

"Can anybody help me check this car?"

and

"Will anybody help me check this car?"

[q2]>> --[/q2]
[q2]>> Franke: Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language. Grammar 2: Formal rules for the[/q2]
[q2]>> written language. Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]

--
Franke: Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language. Grammar 2: Formal rules for the
written language. Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Ale.Complain
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http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248400

http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248401

http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248402

All friends, this is a news for complain ale. Please join us, I would help you.

mailto:[email protected]

ALE Complain

10/06/2002 ???? ?? 2 A 24

Peng Zhang <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Thanks.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Peng[/q1]
Ale.Complain
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http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248400

http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248401

http://www.orientaldaily.com.hk/cgi-...cgi?seq=248402

All friends, this is a news for complain ale. Please join us, I would help you.

mailto:[email protected]

ALE Complain

10/06/2002 ???? ?? 2 A 24

Peng Zhang <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Thanks.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Peng[/q1]
Benotbe
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[q1]> "Can anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> and[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Will anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]

Excuse me, can u explain further why the verb "check" doesn't need to be in "ing" form or else
use "to" before the verb check? I am sometimes confused when there are two verbs in one
sentence. Many thx.
Einde O'Callagh
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Benotbe wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > "Can anybody help me check this car?"[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > and[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > "Will anybody help me check this car?"[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Excuse me, can u explain further why the verb "check" doesn't need to be in "ing" form or else[/q1]
[q1]> use "to" before the verb check? I am sometimes confused when there are two verbs in one sentence.[/q1]
[q1]> Many thx.[/q1]

The word help is followed by another verb in the infinitive with or without "to". The verb form
"check" is the infinitive. If you put in "to" before "check" it wouldn't be incorrect. The verb
"help" is never followed by the "-ing", although the noun "help" often is, e.g. "Do you need any
help eating that ice cream?"

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Howie
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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:56:11 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

[q1]| The verb "help" is never[/q1]
[q1]|followed by the "-ing", although the noun "help" often is, e.g. "Do you |need any help eating that[/q1]
ice cream?"

I couldn't HELP NOTICING that that isn't necessarily true!

;-)

H.

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Benotbe
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So this makes me even more confused then. So should I just go by experience, or else there is a
precise principle behind this "help + another verb" structure?

Thx.

"Howie" <[email protected] sage.com> ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D
[q1]:c1qjhu8k0cgk77oeuqamg7e22ertsin [email protected][/q1]
[q1]> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:56:11 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> <snip>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> | The verb "help" is never[/q1]
[q1]> |followed by the "-ing", although the noun "help" often is, e.g. "Do you |need any help eating[/q1]
[q1]> that ice cream?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I couldn't HELP NOTICING that that isn't necessarily true![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> ;-)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> H.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Howard Coakley: New Media Consultant. My messageboard:-[/q1]
[q1]> http://cgi.coakley.plus.com/cgi-bin/.../ikonboard.cgi e-mail...[/q1]
[q1]> howard<dot}coakleyatbigfoot<dot].com[/q1]
[q1]> ICQ:4502837. (Try ICQ at www.icq.com)[/q1]
Einde O'Callagh
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Howie wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:56:11 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> <snip>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> | The verb "help" is never[/q1]
[q1]> |followed by the "-ing", although the noun "help" often is, e.g. "Do you |need any help eating[/q1]
[q1]> that ice cream?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I couldn't HELP NOTICING that that isn't necessarily true![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> ;-)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
The English teacher's curse strikes again. As soon as you say something is impossible or never
happens, somebody comes up with a contrary example.

I must say I wracked my brains for a while trying to think of an example of the verb "help" followed
by the "-ing"-form and I couldn't think of one.

My only defence - although admittedly a pretty lame one - is that we're talking here about a
completely different meaning - but I have to admit it isn't a very good excuse. :-(

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Howie
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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:24:15 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]|Howie wrote:[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:56:11 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan[/q1]
[q1]|> <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> <snip>[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> | The verb "help" is never[/q1]
[q1]|> |followed by the "-ing", although the noun "help" often is, e.g. "Do you |need any help eating[/q1]
[q1]|> that ice cream?"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> I couldn't HELP NOTICING that that isn't necessarily true![/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> ;-)[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|The English teacher's curse strikes again. As soon as you say something |is impossible or never[/q1]
happens, somebody comes up with a contrary |example.
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|I must say I wracked my brains for a while trying to think of an example |of the verb "help"[/q1]
followed by the "-ing"-form and I couldn't think of |one.
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|My only defence - although admittedly a pretty lame one - is that we're |talking here about a[/q1]
completely different meaning - but I have to admit |it isn't a very good excuse. :-(
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/q1]

Hey, it's only a tongue-in-cheek reply! But I NEVER think that "never" is a good word to use when
advising on english language rules!

Best Regards,

Howie.

FWIW, I can't (for the moment) think of an instance where the verb 'help' _could_ be followed by
a 'V-ing' structure - if 'help' happens to be a single lexical verb without auxiliaries.
Interesting though.

Anyone else?
--

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Howie
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On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:56:04 +0800, "Benotbe" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]|So this makes me even more confused then. |So should I just go by experience, or else there is a[/q1]
precise principle |behind this "help + another verb" structure?

Personally, I would go by experience and what feels right. For god's sake DON'T look at rules of
written grammar! Also, I always think it is worth re-inserting all assumed parts of an example to
help you to focus on the problem. In this case (and I'm still assuming my interpretation of
meaning here);-

" Please will anybody helps me to checking( check) this car?"

Which of course doesn't work.

So... try...

"Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me to check this car"

or....

"Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me in [the process of] checking this car?"

or... to re-condense the sentence as a native might reasonably make the request...

Anybody/Anyone help me check this car?

If you say that, it actually means something like....

"Please will someone help me to check this car?"

Hope SOME of that helped!

As an aside point. If you were to say...

"Anybody/Anyone help me whilst I check this car?

It changes the meaning to (possibly) allow the person questioned to help with another need/task
whilst the questioner 'checks the car' alone.

(Stupid language isn't it)?

Regards,

H.

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Cybercypher
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Howie <[email protected] sage.com> burbled
news:[email protected]:

[q1]> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:56:04 +0800, "Benotbe" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>|So this makes me even more confused then. |So should I just go by experience, or else there is a[/q1]
[q1]>precise |principle behind this "help + another verb" structure?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Personally, I would go by experience and what feels right.[/q1]

Yeah, but you are a native speaker and the original poster is not, so this seems like not very
useful advice.

[q1]> For god's sake DON'T look at rules of written grammar![/q1]

Is there a reason that you say this? Beyond the time it would take to look up and verify every
question of usage in a grammar book, I mean.

[q1]> Also, I always think it is worth re-inserting all assumed parts of an example to help you to focus[/q1]
[q1]> on the problem. In this case (and I'm still assuming my interpretation of meaning here);-[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> " Please will anybody helps me to checking( check) this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Which of course doesn't work.[/q1]

Why doesn't it work? When explaining things to someone who doesn't already know this information, it
would help to give reasons. There can be no "of course"s here.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> So... try...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me to check this car"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> or....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me in [the process of] checking this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> or... to re-condense the sentence as a native might reasonably make the request...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Anybody/Anyone help me check this car?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> If you say that, it actually means something like....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Please will someone help me to check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Hope SOME of that helped![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> As an aside point. If you were to say...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Anybody/Anyone help me whilst I check this car?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It changes the meaning to (possibly) allow the person questioned to help with another need/task[/q1]
[q1]> whilst the questioner 'checks the car' alone.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> (Stupid language isn't it)?[/q1]

Only as stupid as those who use it poorly, IMHO.

--
Franke: Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language. Grammar 2: Formal rules for the
written language. Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Howie
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On 22 Jun 2002 03:28:46 GMT, CyberCypher <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]|Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled |news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|> CyberCypher wrote:[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|>> Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]|>>[/q1]
[q1]|>> > Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q1]
[q1]|>>[/q1]
[q1]|>> You need to say "{Can/Will} anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|> Does that mean that "Can/Will" is omitted here?[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|No, it means you have a choice of[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|"Can anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]| and[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|"Will anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]

These are two different meanings, and neither of them is a request for help.

Original poster: Did you mean this to be a request for help? If so, the above examples are
ambiguous.

(well, you picked on me first)!

With either of the above, a reply could be:-

1/ Yes.
2/ No.
3/ I don't know.

And then the responder might walk away. Possibly not what the questioner wanted!
--

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Einde O'Callagh
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Howie wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> On 22 Jun 2002 03:28:46 GMT, CyberCypher <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> |Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled |news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |> CyberCypher wrote:[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |>> Peng Zhang <[email protected]> burbled news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]> |>>[/q1]
[q1]> |>> > Or I should say: Anybody help me checking( check) this car?[/q1]
[q1]> |>>[/q1]
[q1]> |>> You need to say "{Can/Will} anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |> Does that mean that "Can/Will" is omitted here?[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |No, it means you have a choice of[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |"Can anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> | and[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |"Will anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> These are two different meanings, and neither of them is a request for help.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Original poster: Did you mean this to be a request for help? If so, the above examples are[/q1]
[q1]> ambiguous.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> (well, you picked on me first)![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> With either of the above, a reply could be:-[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> 1/ Yes.[/q1]
[q1]> 2/ No.[/q1]
[q1]> 3/ I don't know.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> And then the responder might walk away. Possibly not what the questioner wanted![/q1]

This is a bit facetious (and somewhat misleading). We often begin requests with "will" or "can".
"Can you open the window?" with or without "please" is usually a request not a question about
somebody's ability. "Will you help me with this bag?" with or without "please" is also a request.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Howie
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On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:19:20 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]|> |[/q1]
[q1]|> |> Does that mean that "Can/Will" is omitted here?[/q1]
[q1]|> |[/q1]
[q1]|> |No, it means you have a choice of[/q1]
[q1]|> |[/q1]
[q1]|> |"Can anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|> |[/q1]
[q1]|> | and[/q1]
[q1]|> |[/q1]
[q1]|> |"Will anybody help me check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> These are two different meanings, and neither of them is a request for help.[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> Original poster: Did you mean this to be a request for help? If so, the above examples are[/q1]
[q1]|> ambiguous.[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> (well, you picked on me first)![/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> With either of the above, a reply could be:-[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> 1/ Yes.[/q1]
[q1]|> 2/ No.[/q1]
[q1]|> 3/ I don't know.[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> And then the responder might walk away. Possibly not what the questioner wanted![/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|This is a bit facetious (and somewhat misleading).[/q1]

Exactly!

[q1]|We often begin |requests with "will" or "can". "Can you open the window?" with or |without "please"[/q1]
is usually a request not a question about somebody's |ability.

It is a question about somebody's ability. But is often used as a question. However, it is correct
AND polite to begin with: "Please will....."

[q1]| "Will you help me with this bag?" with or without "please" is[/q1]
[q1]|also a request.[/q1]

No it isn't. But it is often meant as one.

[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/q1]

Surely you're not going to argue with this as well ?

--

Howard Coakley: New Media Consultant. My messageboard:-
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Howie
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On 27 Jun 2002 01:29:37 GMT, CyberCypher <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]|Howie <[email protected] sage.com> burbled[/q1]
[q1]|news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:56:04 +0800, "Benotbe" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|>|So this makes me even more confused then. |So should I just go by experience, or else there is a[/q1]
[q1]|>precise |principle behind this "help + another verb" structure?[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> Personally, I would go by experience and what feels right.[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Yeah, but you are a native speaker and the original poster is not, so |this seems like not very[/q1]
useful advice.

Did you notice the original poster actually asking if this is what they should do? Only, - I did,
you see? This is what made me think that they might be able to apply experience to the problem. You
know, - the fact that they could apply experience to it?

[q1]|> For god's sake DON'T look at rules of written grammar![/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Is there a reason that you say this? Beyond the time it would take to |look up and verify every[/q1]
question of usage in a grammar book, I mean.

Yep. Because of fragments and verbless clauses which are used all over the place in spoken english.
Look at the example and tell me how a non-native english speaker would start using a book on written
grammar? Personally, I don't think that written grammar rules are very helpful to EFL students when
analysing spoken english. Do you?
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|> Also, I always think it is worth re-inserting all assumed parts of an example to help you to[/q1]
[q1]|> focus on the problem. In this case (and I'm still assuming my interpretation of meaning here);-[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> " Please will anybody helps me to checking( check) this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> Which of course doesn't work.[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Why doesn't it work? When explaining things to someone who doesn't |already know this information,[/q1]
it would help to give reasons. There can |be no "of course"s here.

You're right - of course! But then you have forgotten the original posters ability to use experience
haven't you?

[q1]|> So... try...[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me to check this car"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> or....[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me in [the process of] checking this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> or... to re-condense the sentence as a native might reasonably make the request...[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> Anybody/Anyone help me check this car?[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> If you say that, it actually means something like....[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> "Please will someone help me to check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> Hope SOME of that helped![/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> As an aside point. If you were to say...[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> "Anybody/Anyone help me whilst I check this car?[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> It changes the meaning to (possibly) allow the person questioned to help with another need/task[/q1]
[q1]|> whilst the questioner 'checks the car' alone.[/q1]
[q1]|>[/q1]
[q1]|> (Stupid language isn't it)?[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|Only as stupid as those who use it poorly, IMHO.[/q1]

OK. Of all the examples which we are subjected to listen to in the media, whilst shopping, on the
phone, dealing with businesses every day,- as a percentage, how many would YOU say are good examples
of using it correctly?

It _is_ a stupid language, and I love it!

--

Howard Coakley: New Media Consultant. My messageboard:-
http://cgi.coakley.plus.com/cgi-bin/.../ikonboard.cgi e-mail...
howard<dot}coakleyatbigfoot<dot].com
ICQ:4502837. (Try ICQ at www.icq.com)
Einde O'Callagh
Badges:
#19
Report 16 years ago
#19
Howie wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> On 27 Jun 2002 01:29:37 GMT, CyberCypher <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> |Howie <[email protected] sage.com> burbled[/q1]
[q1]> |news:[email protected]:[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:56:04 +0800, "Benotbe" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |>|So this makes me even more confused then. |So should I just go by experience, or else there is[/q1]
[q1]> |>a precise |principle behind this "help + another verb" structure?[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> Personally, I would go by experience and what feels right.[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |Yeah, but you are a native speaker and the original poster is not, so |this seems like not very[/q1]
[q1]> useful advice.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Did you notice the original poster actually asking if this is what they should do? Only, - I did,[/q1]
[q1]> you see? This is what made me think that they might be able to apply experience to the problem.[/q1]
[q1]> You know, - the fact that they could apply experience to it?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> |> For god's sake DON'T look at rules of written grammar![/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |Is there a reason that you say this? Beyond the time it would take to |look up and verify every[/q1]
[q1]> question of usage in a grammar book, I mean.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yep. Because of fragments and verbless clauses which are used all over the place in spoken[/q1]
[q1]> english. Look at the example and tell me how a non-native english speaker would start using a book[/q1]
[q1]> on written grammar? Personally, I don't think that written grammar rules are very helpful to EFL[/q1]
[q1]> students when analysing spoken english. Do you?[/q1]

It helps to know the rules before you start bending and breaking them, because there are "rules"
about how you can bend and break the rules. In English it's not a case of anything goes.

Native speakers know instinctively what goes in what circumstances. People come here looking for
guidance. Telling them to rely on their gut feeling isn't very helpful, particularly because their
gut feeling will often be heavily influenced by their native language until they have sufficient
experience with the English language to rely on their gut feeling - and even then they may often
make errors.

There are, unfortunately, more than enough enough native and non-native pundits dispensing
misleading information in various newsgroups. If you insist on joining them you will inevitably rub
some language professionals up teh wrong way. I don't know if you have any teaching experience but
suspect as a "new media consultant" you probably have none - and it shows sometimes, even if
occasionally you might trip one of us up when we over-generalise.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |> Also, I always think it is worth re-inserting all assumed parts of an example to help you to[/q1]
[q1]> |> focus on the problem. In this case (and I'm still assuming my interpretation of meaning here);-[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> " Please will anybody helps me to checking( check) this car?"[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> Which of course doesn't work.[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |Why doesn't it work? When explaining things to someone who doesn't |already know this[/q1]
[q1]> information, it would help to give reasons. There can |be no "of course"s here.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> You're right - of course! But then you have forgotten the original posters ability to use[/q1]
[q1]> experience haven't you?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> |> So... try...[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me to check this car"[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> or....[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> "Please will SOMEBODY/SOMEONE help me in [the process of] checking this car?"[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> or... to re-condense the sentence as a native might reasonably make the request...[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> Anybody/Anyone help me check this car?[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> If you say that, it actually means something like....[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> "Please will someone help me to check this car?"[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> Hope SOME of that helped![/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> As an aside point. If you were to say...[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> "Anybody/Anyone help me whilst I check this car?[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> It changes the meaning to (possibly) allow the person questioned to help with another need/task[/q1]
[q1]> |> whilst the questioner 'checks the car' alone.[/q1]
[q1]> |>[/q1]
[q1]> |> (Stupid language isn't it)?[/q1]
[q1]> |[/q1]
[q1]> |Only as stupid as those who use it poorly, IMHO.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> OK. Of all the examples which we are subjected to listen to in the media, whilst shopping, on the[/q1]
[q1]> phone, dealing with businesses every day,- as a percentage, how many would YOU say are good[/q1]
[q1]> examples of using it correctly?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It _is_ a stupid language, and I love it![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Howard Coakley: New Media Consultant. My messageboard:-[/q1]
[q1]> http://cgi.coakley.plus.com/cgi-bin/.../ikonboard.cgi e-mail...[/q1]
[q1]> howard<dot}coakleyatbigfoot<dot].com[/q1]
[q1]> ICQ:4502837. (Try ICQ at www.icq.com)[/q1]
Howie
Badges:
#20
Report 16 years ago
#20
[q1]|> Yep. Because of fragments and verbless clauses which are used all over the place in spoken[/q1]
[q1]|> english. Look at the example and tell me how a non-native english speaker would start using a[/q1]
[q1]|> book on written grammar? Personally, I don't think that written grammar rules are very helpful to[/q1]
[q1]|> EFL students when analysing spoken english. Do you?[/q1]
[q1]|[/q1]
[q1]|It helps to know the rules before you start bending and breaking them, |because there are "rules"[/q1]
about how you can bend and break the rules. In |English it's not a case of anything goes.

Or in most other languages. Please note the term 'written grammar' which was the recommendation for
explaining an utterance I was arguing with.

[q1]|Native speakers know instinctively what goes in what circumstances. |People come here looking for[/q1]
guidance. Telling them to rely on their gut |feeling isn't very helpful, particularly because their
gut feeling will |often be heavily influenced by their native language until they have |sufficient
experience with the English language to rely on their gut |feeling - and even then they may often
make errors.

I have dealt with this previously.

[q1]|There are, unfortunately, more than enough enough native and non-native |pundits dispensing[/q1]
misleading information in various newsgroups. If you |insist on joining them you will inevitably rub
some language |professionals up teh wrong way.

"Language Professionals"! What a jumped-up lot they must be if this is how they describe themselves.
And I notice you prove yourself to be one of the "dispensers" occasionally, don't you?

[q1]| I don't know if you have any teaching[/q1]
[q1]|experience but suspect as a "new media consultant" you probably have |none - and it shows[/q1]
sometimes, even if occasionally you might trip one |of us up when we over-generalise.

My qualifications are of no matter or concern to this forum, and they are unnecessary to allow me
to have a voice. But I am quite confident in my thoughts and advice, thank you. Your suspicions
are also quite irrelevant for the same reason. And if you think that I have spent 22 years in
business whilst not knowing english better than many "language professionals", you are in a world
of your own.

If you have a quote from the content of any of my messages, and wish to argue about it, please do
so. If you have a personal problem with me joining in your 'cosy little newsgroup', please explain
your neurosis. If you just don't like me, either killfile me or e-mail me to sort it out.

Regards, Howard Coakley.

AND: God save me from ever wishing to describe myself as a "Lanuage Professional" !

--

Howard Coakley: New Media Consultant. My messageboard:-
http://cgi.coakley.plus.com/cgi-bin/.../ikonboard.cgi e-mail...
howard<dot}coakleyatbigfoot<dot].com
ICQ:4502837. (Try ICQ at www.icq.com)
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