Pgce ?

SamJL

Surely if someone passes the PGCE exams then they are good enough regardless if they got a 1st or 2:1 or 2:2?!

Based on the teachers I have had; the answer is no, I'm afraid.

I don't deny you need to be intelligent to be a teacher, but I just don't see why someone who got 59% (a 2:2) should be though of as being less suitable for the job than someone with 60% (a 2:1). I don't know about chemistry but in jobs where you are relying on professional and interactive skills (like teaching or any other similar vocation) employers DO look past a degree classification if the person is good enough.

It's all relative, but I think it's a bit narrow minded if you just discount someone for having a lesser degree.

Narrowminded it maybe (I disagree with that though) but most, if not all, top graduate employers have a minimum requirement of a 2:1 and x number of UCAS points for their schemes, and they very, very rarely take anyone below that level. So I'm not sure where you are coming from re: employers looking past degree classification when many won't even look at you if you don't have a 2:1.

Of course this really goes to the heart of what we want from our teachers. I am very keen to become a teacher, but the more I look into it the more I find that excelling in your subject is really not valued very much, which is an absolute tragedy. After a few phone calls to the teaching information line, it has been made quite clear to me that the establishment wants people who will put their desire to be a teacher before their desire to do well in their subject field and that really turns me off teaching.

I appreciate we don't all agree on this one though so I don't mean to be offesive!!!

Likewise.

Reply 21

OP

mayb i shouldnt comment on this as i only got a 2.2 degree and want to a teacher, but i disagree that knowing your subject inside out will make u a brilliant teacher.

iv had many awful teachers, one however was so intelligent and know his subject inside out. he taught me Physics , chemistry and maths. none of these subjects were my strong points , but that hasnt my problem in those classes. my teacher should have become a scientist not a teacher, cos even though he knew his chemistry and physics inside out and was passionate about them, he could not relate that to 14 / 15 years old who didnt have a clue what he was on about . he had the knowledge in his head but could not pass that on to us ! he didnt have the ppl skills or communication skills whatever u want to call it !

he found it so frustrating that we coudnt understand these complicated things straight away, because it was plain and simple to him, the more he tried to explain and make us understand and more confused we were. so yes he was one of worse teachers i had, but he was probably the most intelligent person i had as a teacher, so all his great grades and knowledge on physics and chemistry didnt help him be a good teacher at all !!!

Reply 22

Fluffy Fish

I'm with Sam JL on this one, it's not all about classification. At St Martin's they accept you for secondary PGCE with 2:2. A 2:1 may be a better mark but it is not the mark that makes the good teacher. When they interview you for your place they are looking for personal qualities, these skills make a huge difference in the ability of a person to teach well. A first class student may be very clever and know their subject inside out, but this does not mean they are a good teacher.
Many students drop out within the first few weeks of the PGCE course as they cannot handle it. The way the programme is taught, with the placement in schools as opposed to being in a lecture theatre and doing exams, uses very different skills.

Reply 23

OP

what is meant by conditional offer ?

i havnt got letter from uni where i had my interview the other week, but i was checking gttr track today , im on down as conditional offer . well im not sure what this means, cos iv not got letter yet and well i was about 95 % sure i would not b offered a place so im confused now !

Reply 24

Fluffy Fish

A first class student may be very clever and know their subject inside out, but this does not mean they are a good teacher.

Of course, but, and I can really only speak for my own subject area, a 2:2 student does not posess the knowledge base to be confident with the subject, granted that a pgce will help them gain a better understanding of the subject, but it really isn't good enough when we can do more to attract better candidates into teaching.

Many students drop out within the first few weeks of the PGCE course as they cannot handle it. The way the programme is taught, with the placement in schools as opposed to being in a lecture theatre and doing exams, uses very different skills.

Let us be careful not to run this and the previous thing together. It seems that you are somehow insinuating that good students do not posess these skills to the same degree as less able students.

Reply 25

**R**

mayb i shouldnt comment on this as i only got a 2.2 degree and want to a teacher, but i disagree that knowing your subject inside out will make u a brilliant teacher.

I never said it did, but I said it 'can'. Having a great understanding of your subject does help, if you have the skills to teach.

iv had many awful teachers, one however was so intelligent and know his subject inside out. he taught me Physics , chemistry and maths. none of these subjects were my strong points , but that hasnt my problem in those classes. my teacher should have become a scientist not a teacher, cos even though he knew his chemistry and physics inside out and was passionate about them, he could not relate that to 14 / 15 years old who didnt have a clue what he was on about . he had the knowledge in his head but could not pass that on to us ! he didnt have the ppl skills or communication skills whatever u want to call it !

he found it so frustrating that we coudnt understand these complicated things straight away, because it was plain and simple to him, the more he tried to explain and make us understand and more confused we were. so yes he was one of worse teachers i had, but he was probably the most intelligent person i had as a teacher, so all his great grades and knowledge on physics and chemistry didnt help him be a good teacher at all !!!

This is all rather anecdotal, I could simply talk about my chemistry and physics teachers who both had first and PhDs and we both excellent teachers, patient and very good at explaining things. Unfortunately it sounds like your teacher didn't choose the right career.

It seems that people seem to be missing the point, what I am trying to say is that we have enough people with the skills to become good teachers and the intellect to get a good grade in their degree. We should be encouraging these people into teaching as they will become the best teachers.

Reply 26

SamJL

**R**

what is meant by conditional offer ?

i havnt got letter from uni where i had my interview the other week, but i was checking gttr track today , im on down as conditional offer . well im not sure what this means, cos iv not got letter yet and well i was about 95 % sure i would not b offered a place so im confused now !

It's probably conditional on a satisfactory criminal records check, most courses which involve working with kids or elderly/infirm require a criminal record check, I'm having one done at the moment for my physiotherapy course.. Don't worry, it's a minor thing!

Reply 27

OP

SamJL

It's probably conditional on a satisfactory criminal records check, most courses which involve working with kids or elderly/infirm require a criminal record check, I'm having one done at the moment for my physiotherapy course.. Don't worry, it's a minor thing!

great thanks for that !

Reply 28

OP

ok i got my letter this morning from college i had my interview with, and they have offered me a place but only for 2006 start, not this Sept coming.

at the interview they told us this would b a possibility. and that if we wanted we could still re-apply to other places for this September while their offer for 2006 as a back up in case we dont get a place this year !! or else we could just wait it out til 2006

i think i will try to have another go for this year though. so if i reply to them with firm acceptance, or do i just re apply through gttr and get in touch with this college next year if it doesnt work out ?

if i accept it , can i still apply thru gttr extra to other places ?

Reply 29

You can do a pGCE with a 2.2 my friend did a primary one and is now working in a school in Nottingham with a 2.2

Reply 30

ChemistBoy

Of course, but, and I can really only speak for my own subject area, a 2:2 student does not posess the knowledge base to be confident with the subject, granted that a pgce will help them gain a better understanding of the subject, but it really isn't good enough when we can do more to attract better candidates into teaching.

That would be true if they were teaching to degree level but if they are only teaching to primary or secondary school level you could do it easily with a 2.2

Reply 31

viviki

That would be true if they were teaching to degree level but if they are only teaching to primary or secondary school level you could do it easily with a 2.2

I would disagree with that a secondary level, which is really my point. Basically it is now possible to get a fairly poor set of A-levels, go to a fairly poor university and end up with fairly poor degree and become a teacher - I just don't think that people who do that should be teaching.

Reply 32

But they are doing the same thing year after year, get told what they have to teach and have plenty of time to look it up. I think its doable.
Saying that its not very confidence inspiring for kids to ask their teachers what they got for A Levels and hear that they got Ds and Es, when degree is totally different so I would be more put off by hearing about bad A Levels than that they got for degree.
But there can be reasons for that. In my year at school noone got above a grade C in A Level chemistry, but one of the girls from that group went on with that to read biology and chemistry (can't remember what the degree name is) at Birmingham uni and got a first class Msci and now is doing some kind of chemistry Phd somewhere so I'm guessing she'd be a pretty good chem teacher despite not too good A Levels.

Its difficult, it seems silly that someone should be barred from teaching because they have a 2.2 at 59% and someone else has a 2.1 at 61%.

Reply 33

viviki

Its difficult, it seems silly that someone should be barred from teaching because they have a 2.2 at 59% and someone else has a 2.1 at 61%.

One has to draw the line in the sand somewhere. It is no more silly than someone getting an A at 70% and a B at 69% is it?

Reply 34

viviki

But they are doing the same thing year after year, get told what they have to teach and have plenty of time to look it up. I think its doable.

But really, subject content shouldn't even be an issue, it should be easy.

Reply 35

To go to the extent of saying that one person who gets 61% is more capable of teaching than someone with 59% is crazy. The person with the 59% might have other skills which make them a far better teacher.

Reply 36