School uniform and ear rings Watch

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She Who Would L
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#21
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#21
In article <[email protected] t.co.uk>, Tyc Tac of uttered
[q1]>The parents reasoning was more to do that if constantly removing the earring at the beginninng and[/q1]
[q1]>ending of the school day caused damage or inefection then the school were responsible. Ridiculous[/q1]
[q1]>as the threat may seem I thought it sensible to seek others opinion. That I certainly have got.[/q1]
[q1]>Many thanks.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
once the piercings have healed, you can remove/ replace the earrings as many damn times a day as you
like. I also know from experience that it is quite possible to leave the holes empty for weeks or
even months and then re-insert without a problem. If the parent was thick enough to let the kid have
the piercing done in term-time not the long holidays (to allow time for the lobes to heal) that is
simply poor parenting, and *not* the schools problem.
--
AJH whose daughter is waiting for July to happen!
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Clark
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#22
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#22
Eddie Newall wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Tyc Tac" wrote:[/q1]
[q2]> > What are other schools policy regarding wearing ear rings at school ? One parent has threatened[/q2]
[q2]> > referral to the European court of Human Rights for making their child remove large punk type ear[/q2]
[q2]> > rings in class. Any views ?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Apart from the health & safety issue, speaking as a parent, in my view schools ought to have a[/q1]
[q1]> dress code for other reasons too. Assuming this young lady and all her peers will want to earn a[/q1]
[q1]> living at some stage then in many jobs employers are very fussy about what their employees wear at[/q1]
[q1]> work, and in some cases when not at work! (Corporate 'image'.) In many jobs jewellery or certain[/q1]
[q1]> clothing styles cannot be worn for safety or other reasons reasons and uniform or personal[/q1]
[q1]> protective equipment has to be worn for safety or hygiene reasons.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I thought that one purpose of education was to prepare children for the adult world and the world[/q1]
[q1]> of work. I think this is called socialisation. If it is then surely they need to appreciate that[/q1]
[q1]> there are boundaries on this issue. Feedback welcomed.[/q1]

I've written elsewhere about socialisation and given a reason or two about why I don't see it as a
job for schools.

Jobs and dress: It may be appropriate to wear certain kinds of clothes for certain jobs. It
doesn't follow that it's appropriate to wear the same kind (or different kinds) of clothes at
school. Does it?

When (happy days!) I was an OU student, I used to wear different things to attend tutorials from
what I wore to work. Now, even, I don't wear the same things to go to the theatre as I do for work.
Am I wrong? (No.)

I don't think it's particularly a school's job to prepare children for work, either, by the way. But
the point stands independently.

Bob

[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]> Eddie Newall http://www.freeinformationcentre.co.uk[/q1]
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User 1951
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#23
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#23
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:55:14 +0100, Charm school graduate "mark.norwood"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>Some teachers need to be a bit less anal![/q1]

I could make my usual remark about lowering the tone of the debate but it seems superfluous.

I think school uniform is ridiculous and involves hard-working teachers in a lot of unnecessary work
enforcing it. I think this time might be better spent. I think I can make this point at staff
meetings without abusing colleagues who hold a different view.
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John Hill
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#24
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:19:10 GMT, [email protected] (User 1951) wrote:

[q2]>>Some teachers need to be a bit less anal![/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>I could make my usual remark about lowering the tone of the debate but it seems superfluous.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

anl is shorthand for anally retentive and references one of Freud's theories. So your comment would
not only be superfluous, but also make you appear ignorant.

[q1]>I think school uniform is ridiculous and involves hard-working teachers in a lot of unnecessary[/q1]
[q1]>work enforcing it. I think this time might be better spent. I think I can make this point at staff[/q1]
[q1]>meetings without abusing colleagues who hold a different view.[/q1]

So because you think it then that is so ? School uniform has many benefits

Fostering a sense of identity and acting as a disguise of poverty being two that spring to mind. It
also allows the community at large to identify the school attended by recalitrants.

So apart from the Citizenship aspects and the PSHE aspects how could the fleeting moments of
enforcement be better spent ?

Or having let the uniform slip what would be your next step on the road to total anarchy ?

JH
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Mark.Norwood
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#25
"User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I think school uniform is ridiculous and involves hard-working teachers in a lot of unnecessary[/q1]
[q1]> work enforcing it. I think this time might be better spent.[/q1]

I couldn't agree with you more D

--
mvn
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Clark
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#26
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#26
John Hill wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
-snip-

[q1]> Or having let the uniform slip what would be your next step on the road to total anarchy ?[/q1]

Stop all the silly testing? Do away with useless middle management structures and all that guff?

[Welcome back JH.]

Bob
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User 1951
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#27
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:36:42 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>Education has a moral dimension too. Well at least it used to.[/q1]

Can you put a date on this "golden age" so we know what we are talking about? Not the 1960s
presumably.

******************************** ****
**** http://user1951.tripod.com ****
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Jack London, Lara Croft
Shakespeare and ICT program of study
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Clark
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#28
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#28
Michael Saunby wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Clark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I teach serious subjects. The standards I'm interested in have to do with the subjects I teach,[/q2]
[q2]> > not with jewellery or clothing that may or may not be fashionable. Thinking that dress and[/q2]
[q2]> > appearance are associated with academic standards is part of a fashion of thought which is[/q2]
[q2]> > difficult to reconcile with the kind of standards I'm interested in, I'm afraid.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > (But I still think that if your child's school bans earrings you probably ought to just shut up[/q2]
[q2]> > and take your child's earrings off. If the holes in his/her ears then close up, well, so much[/q2]
[q2]> > the better. What's so good about poking holes in a child's ear anyway? That's nothing to do with[/q2]
[q2]> > educational standards, however.)[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yes it does have to do with educational standards; it just doesn't have anything to do with[/q1]
[q1]> academic standards.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Education has a moral dimension too. Well at least it used to.[/q1]

It's interesting to try and see the wearing of earrings as a moral issue.

That's a bit cheap, though, I suppose. I take your point ... there is a substantive issue hanging
around here, to do with the desirability/importance of non-academic aspects of school education. I
find I've changed my mind rather on this as I've got older (bringing up my own children has had a
lot to do with the change, I reckon, too). I used to be all in favour of schools as
social-engineering factories, turning out well-socialised (and hopefully social*ist*, but that's
another matter) and morally sensitive citizens and members of the wider community starting from the
raw material of little Hobbesian savages. Now I think, more or less, that it's not really my job
(read '*shouldn't*' be my job, as a teacher) to socialise children ... I'd have been very annoyed
with any teacher who had tried social engineering on *my* children, much as I object to teachers
trying to instill ideas of baby Jesus or other superstitious nonsense.

As for my children, so for other people's. It's the parents' job to civilise their children, not the
schools. Why? It's not the place of the wider society or the State to abrogate the teaching of
morality or mores. Eating with a knife and fork (or chopsticks, whatever), not farting in public,
trying to be kind ... all notions that children should arrive at school already imbued with.

OK, yes, yes, what if they don't? Perhaps there's a difference between primary and secondary, too.
Sure enough, it'll all be a bit fuzzy at the edges, and, indeed, some of my own hidden curriculum
(respect for others' opinions, rationality above instinct, lots of stuff like that ...) I surely see
as important. As a general rule, though, I now want things like dress, jewellery, general behaviour
and so on sorted out somewhere else. I wanted to sort those sorts of things out with and for my own
children ... who am I to now take it upon myself to do it to other people's children?

I didn't allow my daughters to have their ears pierced while they lived at home ... now they've more
or less left home they have pierced ears and I'm quite sanguine about it. Other people have sent me
their children to teach at the age of 12 with rings in their noses, belly-buttons and lord knows
where else ... I've told them (the parents, mainly) what I think of that (not much) when I've been
asked, but otherwise I don't bother about it. Seems not to get in the way of what I'm paid to do,
which is teach philo and maths.

That's a bit long, sorry.

Bob
0
Roddytoo
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#29
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#29
"Tyc Tac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> What are other schools policy regarding wearing ear rings at school ? One parent has threatened[/q1]
[q1]> referral to the European court of Human Rights for making their child remove large punk type ear[/q1]
[q1]> rings in class. Any views ?[/q1]

Just how fast would these parents be to sue if the child is damaged by ear tearing in a playground
fight etc? Such rules are in place for the protection of all.
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Eddie Newall
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#30
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#30
"Clark" wrote:

<snip>
[q1]> I've written elsewhere about socialisation and given a reason or two about why I don't see it as a[/q1]
[q1]> job for schools.[/q1]
<snip>
[q1]> I don't think it's particularly a school's job to prepare children for work, either, by the way.[/q1]
[q1]> But the point stands independently.[/q1]

Is this attitude commonplace in secondary education teachers?

--
Eddie Newall http://www.freeinformationcentre.co.uk
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Robert
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#31
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#31
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:50:30 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>BTW Drama is *the* most serious and important subject on the curriculum. Much, much more important[/q1]
[q1]>than several of the so-called academic subjects.[/q1]
[q1]>--[/q1]
[q1]>mvn[/q1]

It's only taught in one school in our local authority, sadly mine. We rate it on a par with PE and
Meedja Studies. In carrer conventions I don't notice any companies rating it at all.
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Dave
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#32
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#32
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:50:30 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>BTW Drama is *the* most serious and important subject on the curriculum. Much, much more important[/q1]
[q1]>than several of the so-called academic subjects.[/q1]

...sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

--
Dave
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John Hill
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#33
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#33
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:22:06 +0200, Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>John Hill wrote:[/q1]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q1]>-snip-[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> Or having let the uniform slip what would be your next step on the road to total anarchy ?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Stop all the silly testing? Do away with useless middle management structures and all that guff?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

Testing seems OK in that it has pulled a few things into focus. What peeves me is the targets, or
rather the way that the bullies in the DfEE (or whatever this week's name is) force targets onto
Local Authorities and on from there to schools.

I have few problems with targetting, it adds a degree of Tension, but they should be attainable

[q1]>[Welcome back JH.][/q1]

I'm posting from uk............. governors

JH
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Clark
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#34
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#34
Michael Saunby wrote:
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Clark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I teach serious subjects. The standards I'm interested in have to do with the subjects I teach,[/q2]
[q2]> > not with jewellery or clothing that may or may not be fashionable. Thinking that dress and[/q2]
[q2]> > appearance are associated with academic standards is part of a fashion of thought which is[/q2]
[q2]> > difficult to reconcile with the kind of standards I'm interested in, I'm afraid.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > (But I still think that if your child's school bans earrings you probably ought to just shut up[/q2]
[q2]> > and take your child's earrings off. If the holes in his/her ears then close up, well, so much[/q2]
[q2]> > the better. What's so good about poking holes in a child's ear anyway? That's nothing to do with[/q2]
[q2]> > educational standards, however.)[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yes it does have to do with educational standards; it just doesn't have anything to do with[/q1]
[q1]> academic standards.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Education has a moral dimension too. Well at least it used to.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Michael Saunby[/q1]

It's interesting to try and see the wearing of earrings as a moral issue.

That's a bit cheap, though, I suppose. I take your point ... there is a substantive issue hanging
around here, to do with the desirability/importance of non-academic aspects of school education. I
find I've changed my mind rather on this as I've got older (bringing up my own children has had a
lot to do with the change, I reckon, too). I used to be all in favour of schools as
social-engineering factories, turning out well-socialised (and hopefully social*ist*, but that's
another matter) and morally sensitive citizens and members of the wider community starting from the
raw material of little Hobbesian savages. Now I think, more or less, that it's not really my job
(read '*shouldn't*' be my job, as a teacher) to socialise children ... I'd have been very annoyed
with any teacher who had tried social engineering on *my* children, much as I object to teachers
trying to instill ideas of baby Jesus or other superstitious nonsense.

As for my children, so for other people's. It's the parents' job to civilise their children, not the
schools. Why? It's not the place of the wider society or the State to arrogate the teaching of
morality or mores. Eating with a knife and fork (or chopsticks, whatever), not farting in public,
trying to be kind ... all notions that children should arrive at school already imbued with.

OK, yes, yes, what if they don't? Perhaps there's a difference between primary and secondary, too.
Sure enough, it'll all be a bit fuzzy at the edges, and, indeed, some of my own hidden curriculum
(respect for others' opinions, rationality above instinct, lots of stuff like that ...) I surely see
as important. As a general rule, though, I now want things like dress, jewellery, general behaviour
and so on sorted out somewhere else. I wanted to sort those sorts of things out with and for my own
children ... who am I to now take it upon myself to do it to other people's children?

I didn't allow my daughters to have their ears pierced while they lived at home ... now they've more
or less left home they have pierced ears and I'm quite sanguine about it. Other people have sent me
their children to teach at the age of 12 with rings in their noses, belly-buttons and lord knows
where else ... I've told them (the parents, mainly) what I think of that (not much) when I've been
asked, but otherwise I don't bother about it. Seems not to get in the way of what I'm paid to do,
which is teach philo and maths.

That's a bit long, sorry.

Bob
0
Mark.Norwood
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#35
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#35
"Robert" <[email protected] uk> wrote in message
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It's only taught in one school in our local authority, sadly mine. We rate it on a par with PE and[/q1]
[q1]> Meedja Studies. In carrer conventions I don't notice any companies rating it at all.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

People like you often don't notice things.

Shame really.

--
mvn
0
Mark.Norwood
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#36
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#36
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> ...sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

lol

Personally I think punning is.

--
mvn
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Michael Saunby
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#37
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#37
"Clark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Michael Saunby wrote:[/q1]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > "Clark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q2]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > I teach serious subjects. The standards I'm interested in have to do with the subjects I[/q3]
[q3]> > > teach, not with jewellery or clothing that may or may not be fashionable. Thinking that dress[/q3]
[q3]> > > and appearance are associated with academic standards is part of a fashion of thought which is[/q3]
[q3]> > > difficult to reconcile with the kind of standards I'm interested in, I'm afraid.[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > (But I still think that if your child's school bans earrings you probably ought to just shut[/q3]
[q3]> > > up and take your child's earrings off. If the holes in his/her ears then close up, well, so[/q3]
[q3]> > > much the better. What's so good about poking holes in a child's ear anyway? That's nothing to[/q3]
[q3]> > > do with educational standards, however.)[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Yes it does have to do with educational standards; it just doesn't have[/q2]
anything
[q2]> > to do with academic standards.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Education has a moral dimension too. Well at least it used to.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Michael Saunby[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It's interesting to try and see the wearing of earrings as a moral issue.[/q1]

True, but how we deal with rules, authority, etc. probably is.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> That's a bit cheap, though, I suppose. I take your point ... there is a substantive issue hanging[/q1]
[q1]> around here, to do with the desirability/importance of non-academic aspects of school education. I[/q1]
[q1]> find I've changed my mind rather on this as I've got older (bringing up my own children has had a[/q1]
[q1]> lot to do with the change, I reckon, too). I used to be all in favour of schools as[/q1]
[q1]> social-engineering factories, turning out well-socialised (and hopefully social*ist*, but that's[/q1]
[q1]> another matter)[/q1]

There was a time when some schools would only hire Labour supporters; though now that party has
given up socialism, their past abuses of the education system are pretty much irrelevant.

[q1]> and morally sensitive citizens and members of the wider community starting from the raw material[/q1]
[q1]> of little Hobbesian savages. Now I think, more or less, that it's not really my job (read[/q1]
[q1]> '*shouldn't*' be my job, as a teacher) to socialise children ... I'd have been very annoyed with[/q1]
[q1]> any teacher who had tried social engineering on *my* children, much as I object to teachers trying[/q1]
[q1]> to instill ideas of baby Jesus or other superstitious nonsense.[/q1]

It wouldn't work anyway, most children are far smarter than that, and as has happened for millennia,
are socialised largely by their peer group as they interact in an often cautious, but always
experimental, way with others. Sure they'll listen to you, but they'd be fools to believe you, or
anyone else who isn't substantially like them.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> As for my children, so for other people's. It's the parents' job to civilise their children, not[/q1]
[q1]> the schools.[/q1]

Same problem applies. Once they've got old enough to be allowed out of the home they'll soon find
people they consider smarter, "cooler", more successful, etc. than their loser parents.

[q1]> Why? It's not the place of the wider society or the State to arrogate the teaching of morality or[/q1]
[q1]> mores. Eating with a knife and fork (or chopsticks, whatever), not farting in public, trying to be[/q1]
[q1]> kind ... all notions that children should arrive at school already imbued with.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

Quite. But there's more to being a citizen than not spitting food on people.

[q1]> OK, yes, yes, what if they don't? Perhaps there's a difference between primary and secondary, too.[/q1]
[q1]> Sure enough, it'll all be a bit fuzzy at the edges, and, indeed, some of my own hidden curriculum[/q1]
[q1]> (respect for others' opinions, rationality above instinct, lots of stuff like that ...) I surely[/q1]
[q1]> see as important. As a general rule, though, I now want things like dress, jewellery, general[/q1]
[q1]> behaviour and so on sorted out somewhere else. I wanted to sort those sorts of things out with and[/q1]
[q1]> for my own children ... who am I to now take it upon myself to do it to other people's children?[/q1]

IQ doesn't increase with age. Many of your students will be smarter than you. Your position comes
from authority, either real or perceived. If you set rules and don't enforce them you're worse off
than with no rules. Of course the smart thing is to know what rules are needed, but once the damage
is done, it's necessary to live with the consequences.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I didn't allow my daughters to have their ears pierced while they lived at home ... now they've[/q1]
[q1]> more or less left home they have pierced ears and I'm quite sanguine about it. Other people have[/q1]
[q1]> sent me their children to teach at the age of 12 with rings in their noses, belly-buttons and lord[/q1]
[q1]> knows where else ... I've told them (the parents, mainly) what I think of that (not much) when[/q1]
[q1]> I've been asked, but otherwise I don't bother about it. Seems not to get in the way of what I'm[/q1]
[q1]> paid to do, which is teach philo and maths.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> That's a bit long, sorry.[/q1]

No problem.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Bob[/q1]
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Michael Saunby
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#38
"User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:36:42 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >Education has a moral dimension too. Well at least it used to.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Can you put a date on this "golden age" so we know what we are talking about? Not the 1960s[/q1]
[q1]> presumably.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

That was "education", not teaching!

Michael Saunby
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User 1951
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#39
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#39
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:19:25 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>There was a time when some schools would only hire Labour supporters; though now that party has[/q1]
[q1]>given up socialism, their past abuses of the education system are pretty much irrelevant.[/q1]

I am neither a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party but this story happens to be untrue.

******************************** ****
**** http://user1951.tripod.com ****
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Jack London, Lara Croft
Shakespeare and ICT program of study
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Robert
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#40
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:53:27 +0100, "mark.norwood" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>People like you often don't notice things.[/q1]

People who don't rate drama don't notice things, how do you draw that conclusion? Or is it just a
sweeping generalisation that people like you make?
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