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Beauty123
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#41
Reminds me of the issue that cropped up between a Head and a Classroom Assistant who got a nose stud
over the holidays. The Head told the Assistant she had to choose between her job and her nose stud.

Personally, I like nose studs. I think they're a valid fashion statement and also I like
self-expression. In a free society, I'm sceptical of authorities who try to impose THEIR preferences
on others.

Anyway, the nose stud went.

I thought that was a shame.
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Wilson
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Ive just had quite a laugh reading this thread. This Norwood fellow really is an utter DimWit. It is
often the way, that people who realise that the subject that they teach is absolute garbage, get
defensive to the point of ridicule. Norwood you are a fool; your subject is not important in any way
shape or form; if drama is offered in schools then it should be done so correctly; ie as a sink
subject for folks (often like their teachers) who cant hack academic subjects but have nothing
better to do with their time. As for classes finishing when you like. Dont be an arse.

The Captain
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Michael Saunby
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"beauty123" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Reminds me of the issue that cropped up between a Head and a Classroom Assistant who got a nose[/q1]
[q1]> stud over the holidays. The Head told the Assistant she had to choose between her job and her[/q1]
[q1]> nose stud.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Personally, I like nose studs. I think they're a valid fashion statement and also I like[/q1]
[q1]> self-expression. In a free society, I'm sceptical of authorities who try to impose THEIR[/q1]
[q1]> preferences on others.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Anyway, the nose stud went.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I thought that was a shame.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

I expect any head who wanted to put an end to nose studs need to do no more than wear one. Few
youngsters are likely to take a fashion lead from a headteacher. Perhaps heads should also spend
more time smoking behind bike sheds, chewing gum, spitting, swearing, etc.

Surely nose studs were a fashion statement 20 years ago? Today it's just a badge.

Michael Saunby
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Michael Saunby
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#44
"wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Ive just had quite a laugh reading this thread. This Norwood fellow really is an utter DimWit. It[/q1]
[q1]> is often the way, that people who realise that the subject that they teach is absolute garbage,[/q1]
[q1]> get defensive to the point of ridicule. Norwood you are a fool; your subject is not important in[/q1]
[q1]> any way shape or form; if drama is offered in schools then it should be done so correctly; ie as a[/q1]
[q1]> sink subject for folks (often like their teachers) who cant hack academic subjects but have[/q1]
[q1]> nothing better to do with their time. As for classes finishing when you like. Dont be an arse.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

Perhaps, though I think media studies is an excellent subject and may soon be the subject that
employers use to sort wheat from chaff. The subject is now so popular and competition to get into
best colleges and universities to continue is so intense, it is clearly a good measure of capacity
to deliver what is asked of an individual with little regard for how the individual might ultimately
benefit. Exactly what modern employers demand. Well done everyone who help to achieve this!

Ok, maybe that's going too far, but it's damned good for teaching team working and communication,
skills that are often lacking from those with the greatest academic ability.

Michael Saunby
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Michael Saunby
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#45
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#45
"User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:19:25 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >There was a time when some schools would only hire Labour supporters; though[/q2]
now
[q2]> >that party has given up socialism, their past abuses of the education system[/q2]
are
[q2]> >pretty much irrelevant.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I am neither a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party but this story happens to be untrue.[/q1]

Ok, so they haven't completely abandoned socialism.

Michael Saunby
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Dave
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#46
On 29 Jun 2002 13:19:04 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>I happen to agree that drama is a critical subject. In much of one's life, one will have to present[/q1]
[q1]>oneself in certain situations. I know that without my drama and voice classes, my teaching probably[/q1]
[q1]>would have suffered. I am shy in public but can use the drama experiences to help me through social[/q1]
[q1]>situations and in speaking in front of a class, at a meeting, in courses, etc.[/q1]

All the quotes from the front page of the TES around 3 years ago, article entitled "A-level maths
equals money"

"People with maths a-level go on to earn significantly more than their peers with equivalent
qualifications in different subjects according to new research

The study compared the incomes and educational backgrounds of 4500 people and concluded that having
maths A-level can increase long term earning potential by 7 to 10 percent

Maths conferred a clear advantage even when taken by weaker students. Researchers at the Centre for
Economic Performance at the London School of Economics found that the "return" in terms of pay to
maths A-level was not simply because high ability pupils were more likely to take the subject.

People who had only scraped a pass in the subject still enjoyed a higher income in later life - even
the few who got a grade E earned 8% more than thosewho did not take maths"

[snip some quotes from Dr Anna Vignoles and Peter Dolton from University of Newcastle]

"The findings to be published tommorrow in the centres journal "centrepiece", held true even when
traditionally highly paid maths based occupations in banking accounting and IT were removed from the
equation and maths had a large positive effect on the earnings of graduates and non-graduates alike"

"The study concludes: "There is clear evidence of a large positive return to maths A-level even
controlling for previous ability and further study at the graduate and post-graduate level"

"Interestingly the study found no evidence of positive returns to science or language A-levels"

"A possible explanation for this is that maths skills learned at A-level such as logical thinking,
problem solving and statistical analysis, may be closer to those actually used in the workplace than
skills developed in other subjects"

"The findings back up research by Professor Carol Fitz-Gibbon at Durham University on the long term
consequences of curriculum choice. This showed that students in schools where the maths department
had strong "pulling power" and recruited well onto A-level courses were better off and had a higher
quality of life five years after leaving school than similarly able students who took English"

[End quote]

Now show me some evidence to suggest Drama is anything other than a joke subject for lazy/thick
students who are no good at anything else.

--
Dave
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Dave
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#47
On 29 Jun 2002 16:07:20 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>"Money isn't everything."[/q1]

Well there is quality of life also ...

"were better off and had a higher quality of life five years after leaving school than similarly
able students who took English"

--
Dave
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Dave
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#48
On 29 Jun 2002 16:12:21 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>Depends on one's definition of "quality of life." Many in the rat race think they have a good[/q1]
[q1]>quality of life - until they examine it more thoroughly.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

Well you've gone from saying that the skills learned in Drama are "critical" to arguing over the
definition of "quality of life". I think you fundamentaly failed to understand the article. Take two
identicle twins, one does Drama A-level +2/3 others the other does maths A-level +2/3 others. They
both go into the same job at the same time. The one with maths A-level will earn almost 10% more
than the Drama student in the same job because " ...maths skills learned at A-level such as logical
thinking, problem solving and statistical analysis, may be closer to those actually used in the
workplace than skills developed in other subjects". So the job done does not matter the
mathematician will be more successful that the Drama queen irrespective of what job they go into
because he took a proper subject at A-level rather than an easy one. Two people in the same job, one
more successful than the other, which one has a higher quality of life?

--
Dave
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Dave
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#49
On 29 Jun 2002 16:41:24 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>I think they are. Math is important, but it teaches a completely different skill from English,[/q1]
[q1]>drama, science, well...you name it, each has its own merit. In some situations, math skill is less[/q1]
[q1]>important than drama. In others, it is more important. To measure purely in economic terms is to[/q1]
[q1]>completely ignore the real "quality of life." Would you rather converse with someone who only knows[/q1]
[q1]>mathematics? Have you ever tried to do so? (I have, btw....zzzzzzz.)[/q1]

"who only knows mathematics" yes that would be boring as would talking to someone who only knows
Monty Python or Shakespear plays.

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Hypotheticals are easy. Most are often impossible. The same job? Flipping burgers in McDonalds.[/q1]
[q1]>Math won't do anywhere near the same for twin 2 as drama does for twin 1. Drama will get the person[/q1]
[q1]>further in sales.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>No, I understood the article. I chose to ignore it, because the article is fundamentally flawed,[/q1]
[q1]>just like the UK government's stance on what is important in education. You seem to be a product of[/q1]
[q1]>your government. More power to you.[/q1]

The article looks at outcomes: what really happened to 4500 people after leaving the education
system. It looked at computer programmers, sales people and burger flippers and came to a conclusion
that you don't like and have failed to provide a coherent argument against. Please provide evidence
that drama A-level provides positive returns for people entering a sales career or are you going to
do your usual trick of ignoring anything which you don't agree with but the facts prevent you from
arguing against?

--
Dave
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Dave
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#50
On 29 Jun 2002 17:04:54 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>but I have a job, so cannot devote the time you apparently can.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

This gave me a real laugh. You obviously have no life since you seem to spend 12 hours a day
teaching better lessons than everyone else on this newsgorup and another 12 hours a day posting
messages on this newsgorup telling us about it.

--
Dave
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Keith Meredith
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#51
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#51
In article <[email protected] b-ms.aol.com>, SLieber24 <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]> I happen to agree that drama is a critical subject[/q1]

I agree - there are many students whose inhibitions/shyness/natural modesty makes it impossible for
them to participate fully in drama lessons :-)

Best wishes

Keith

--
__ _ _ @ @ [email protected]
[q1]|\/| |_ |_) |_) \/ /\ Northampton Prep School[/q1]
[q1]| | |__ | \ | \ / \__/ (was Great Houghton Prep)[/q1]
Keith Meredith IT Co-ordinator www.ghps.northants.sch.uk
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Jo L
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#52
[q1]> The study compared the incomes and educational backgrounds of 4500 people and concluded that[/q1]
[q1]> having maths A-level can increase long term earning potential by 7 to 10 percent[/q1]

I don't see that I am earning 7 to 10% more as a Maths teacher with an A-Level and degree in
Maths compared to other teachers in the school who didn't do Maths at A-Level!!! Although that is
a good thing as we shouldn't discriminate teacehrs pay like that! (although a rise for everyone
would be good!)

Jo
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User1951
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#53
On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 14:19:28 +0200, "wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>This Norwood fellow really is an utter DimWit.[/q1]

This is an example of how to conduct a debate? Would you let Year 7 pupils get away with it? Or
would you tell them not to substitute abuse for reasoned argument?

******************************** ********
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Keith Meredith
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#54
In article <ht0shu004m99tnscfmphi2k0i8o4v9p [email protected]>, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]> This gave me a real laugh. You obviously have no life since you seem to spend 12 hours a day[/q1]
[q1]> teaching better lessons[/q1]

Lots of teachers have no life - they spend some hours teaching and then make up the rest in
preparation and marking!

If you have a life then you you are obviously spending too much time posting and not enough
doing your job!

If you criticise Sandi without knowing her workload then you obviously don't know teaching!

Best wishes

Keith

--
__ _ _ @ @ [email protected]
[q1]|\/| |_ |_) |_) \/ /\ Northampton Prep School[/q1]
[q1]| | |__ | \ | \ / \__/ (was Great Houghton Prep)[/q1]
Keith Meredith IT Co-ordinator www.ghps.northants.sch.uk
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Jo L
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"Eddie Newall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3d1d4[email protected]...
[q1]> "Clark" wrote:[/q1]

[q2]> > I don't think it's particularly a school's job to prepare children for work, either, by the way.[/q2]
[q2]> > But the point stands independently.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Is this attitude commonplace in secondary education teachers?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> --[/q1]
[q1]> Eddie Newall[/q1]

I think that it is not the *only* thing that schools should do, but yes we should be preparing
pupils with abilities and skills needed in order to work effectively with others.

Jo
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Dave
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#56
On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:58:32 +0000 (UTC), "Jo L" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>I don't see that I am earning 7 to 10% more as a Maths teacher with an A-Level and degree in[/q1]
[q1]>Maths compared to other teachers in the school who didn't do Maths at A-Level!!! Although that is[/q1]
[q1]>a good thing as we shouldn't discriminate teacehrs pay like that! (although a rise for everyone[/q1]
[q1]>would be good!)[/q1]

this is an average, so on average maths teachers should get more responsibility points, recruitment
and retention points or progress onto the leadership spine more often than say drama teachers.

--
Dave
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User1951
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#57
On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:08 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>Ok, so they haven't completely abandoned socialism.[/q1]

They openly and officially abandoned socialism and embraced privatisation.

However it was not the case that people have been barred from jobs because they were not Labour
Party members. If it happened there would have been Industrial Tribunal hearings galore and my union
(which is affiliated to no party) would have supported the victims. It is a lie. It did not happen.
******************************** ********
http://user1951.tripod.com Education Education Education
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Michael Saunby
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"User1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:16:08 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >Ok, so they haven't completely abandoned socialism.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> They openly and officially abandoned socialism and embraced privatisation.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> However it was not the case that people have been barred from jobs because they were not Labour[/q1]
[q1]> Party members. If it happened there would have been Industrial Tribunal hearings galore and my[/q1]
[q1]> union (which is affiliated to no party) would have supported the victims. It is a lie. It did[/q1]
[q1]> not happen.[/q1]

I'm told it did happen the 1960s in Scunthorpe and perhaps other industrial towns dominated by
closed shop nationalised industry. Hell, given the corruption of their town councils, trade
unions, and the like it would be unimaginable if schools in these places were not also operated as
closed shops.

Michael Saunby
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Andy.Garner2
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Course they haven't. They have merely abandoned the concept of comprehensive ed, so that they can
institute a 5 tier sec ed system in which those schools thayt can find funding get more given to
them and those that can't go to the wall amidst the rantings of the media about falling standards.
Ruined lives for the kids and teachers, but the 'socialist' government doesnt give a toss whilst
they are courting private enterprise and big business. They are traitors to the Party they
hi-jacked.

And NO, I am not a Labour member and I never have been.

"Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1025342065.28905.0.nnrp-08.9e98...ws.demon.co.uk...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "User 1951" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> > On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:19:25 +0100, "Michael Saunby" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q3]> > >There was a time when some schools would only hire Labour supporters;[/q3]
though
[q1]> now[/q1]
[q3]> > >that party has given up socialism, their past abuses of the education[/q3]
system
[q1]> are[/q1]
[q3]> > >pretty much irrelevant.[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I am neither a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party but this story happens to be untrue.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Ok, so they haven't completely abandoned socialism.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Michael Saunby[/q1]
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Dave
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#60
On 29 Jun 2002 21:07:17 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>zzzzzzz...... this "attack the poster" is getting very old, don't you think?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

If you fail to back your arguments up with facts but insist on replying to every post then you have
to expect it. Still waiting for anything other than your opinion to show Drama is of any value.

--
Dave
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