Oxbridge Admissions Query-Please Help!

Leaving all the "what are my chances of getting accepted" to one side, just for a moment, you do realise that you won't be entitled to any student funding (tuition fee support, loans) and will need to self-fund? It will be very, very expensive.

Reply 2

hobnob

You want to apply for a second BA in Law after underperforming in a degree in the same subject despite your "genuine passion" for it? :confused:

Sorry, but I don't think you'll stand much of a chance there.

Reply 3

OP

Yeah, I was aware of this. I have been working since 17 and am pretty financially independent. My parents said they would help with tuition fees.

I know it won't be easy.

Reply 4

River85

hobnob

You want to apply for a second BA in Law after underperforming in a degree in the same subject despite your "genuine passion" for it? :confused:

Sorry, but I don't think you'll stand much of a chance there.

Exactly.

You have a real passion for law, so why did you have this "do enough to just bet by" attitude and why did you achieve mediocore marks? How can you be sure that you're actually academically capable (which you may well be) and that your attitude will improve?

You'll certainly have a hard task trying to convince an admissions tutor that you're capable and motivated.

Also, do you want to practice in Scotland?

Reply 5

IndiePixie

If its what you really want to do then try but I wouldn't really hold out much hope given that you are under-performing in the same subject without any obvious mitigating circumstances. I don't think taking A-levels is really going to help matters and as a graduate would look like you were degrading rather than advancing. Unfortunately, it's your degree grades that will matter most as it is the same subject. Perhaps look at Postgraduate diplomas that will admit you on the basis of an ordinary degree and allow you to transfer to a Masters degree if you perform well enough.

Reply 6

If its only third year, then you still have another year to get a high 2:1- if you work in final year, As are certainly possible. If you don't think it is then you have no right setting your sights on Oxbridge. The most third year can count for in any Scottish Law school is 50%, some considerably less. If you really have a passion then you can still pull a first out. If you can't, then you're answering your own questions. Get the first, do an LL.M or something at Oxbridge- they'd still look pretty favourably on a first class degree, wherever it may be from.

I'm sorry, but there's a dichotomy here- on one hand you claim passion and ability, then in the same sentence say you have a problem with not working hard enough while also getting bad marks. I'm not convinced you've got any chance unless you buck your ideas up pronto, to be brutally honest. Stop worrying about getting As at college and think about getting As at University- they'll look infinitely more positively on that.

Reply 7

hobnob

River85

Exactly.

You have a real passion for law, so why did you have this "do enough to just bet by" attitude and why did you achieve mediocore marks? How can you be sure that you're actually academically capable (which you may well be) and that your attitude will improve?

You'll certainly have a hard task trying to convince an admissions tutor that you're capable and motivated.

Also, do you want to practice in Scotland?

That, and I'm not sure they'd even consider second BA applications from people who have already done an undergraduate degree in the same subject.

Reply 8

OP

River85

Exactly.

You have a real passion for law, so why did you have this "do enough to just bet by" attitude and why did you achieve mediocore marks? How can you be sure that you're actually academically capable (which you may well be) and that your attitude will improve?

You'll certainly have a hard task trying to convince an admissions tutor that you're capable and motivated.

Also, do you want to practice in Scotland?

Thanks for your comments, this is what I feared. My LLB degree is standardised by the Law Society so coursework and exams are second marked externally across Scotland (i.e My paper will be marked by tutors form Glasgow, Edinburgh etc). I have produced first class marks at this level so I know I am capable.

My attitude towards work has been the main problem. I have been able to get by with putting in very little effort which has become a habit. My priorities have also become skewed. This is why I want to go back and see what I am really capable of and not just continue the comfortable cycle of mediocrity into the workplace.

Reply 9

hobnob

KC1234

Thanks for your comments, this is what I feared. My LLB degree is standardised by the Law Society so coursework and exams are second marked externally across Scotland (i.e My paper will be marked by tutors form Glasgow, Edinburgh etc). I have produced first class marks at this level so I know I am capable.

My attitude towards work has been the main problem. I have been able to get by with putting in very little effort which has become a habit. My priorities have also become skewed. This is why I want to go back and see what I am really capable of and not just continue the comfortable cycle of mediocrity into the workplace.

Then do what 0404343m suggested. It's the best solution by far.

Reply 10

OP

0404343m

If its only third year, then you still have another year to get a high 2:1- if you work in final year, As is certainly possible. If you don't think it is then you have no right setting your sights on Oxbridge. The most third year can count for in any Scottish Law school is 50%, some considerably less. If you really have a passion then you can still pull a first out. If you can't, then your answering your own questions. Get the first, do an LL.M or something at Oxbridge- they'd still look pretty favourably on a first.

I'm sorry, but there's a dichotomy here- on one hand you claim passion and ability, then in the same sentence say you have a problem with not working hard enough and also getting bad marks. I'm not convinced you've got any chance unless you buck your ideas up pronto, to be honest. Stop worrying about getting As at college and think about getting As at University- they'll look infinitely more favourably on that.

Thanks for this, I think this is definitely what I needed to hear.

Reply 11

Not a problem- I'm a case in point, I got through school finding most of it pretty easy- never had to scare myself into working, came out with a handy mix of As Bs and the odd C across 8 highers and advanced highers, hit the proverbial wall with software engineering (after very nearly taking up a law offer at Strathclyde), convinced myself I could do it if I tried, then switched to history, justifying it with the line that it was a subject I'd genuinely enjoy, and I did. It wasn't any less work though, and again I got through first year and second on predominantly Bs. Got to honours and realised if I wasn't going to be average, I'd really actually have to do some work- and thus found myself spending hours on end in the library making sure I knew everything inside out. It worked, but not without the kick up the backside which told me if I didn't, I might be ordinary, safe, 2:2 and going through my life telling people I could have done better if I tried. After a while, it fools no one. You have one chance at your first degree, it isn't too late to salvage it and go on to better things.

Reply 12

River85

hobnob

That, and I'm not sure they'd even consider second BA applications from people who have already done an undergraduate degree in the same subject.

Yes, that also occured to me. Also, they may not accept new A-levels/A-leves that have been retaken.

There is the postgrad option, although again this is expensive (and funding can be a bugger) and to have a reasonable chance of getting onto an LLM programme at any strong law school you'd a good 2:1 at the very least. If you do achieve the 2:1 or a 1st then is there any problem? Would you feel the need to "top up" your can undergrad degree? Because it's still possible to get a training contract at a provincial solicitors firm with a 2:1, even from a modest law school. Although your lack of consistancy during the degree may be an issue but one you can easily compensate for.

So you admit you have fallen into bad habits, but are you really sure you're able to get yourself out of them? Just concentrate on this degree, there's still plenty of time to pull things up. Work your arse off basically, leave these bad habits behind. Once you graduate then you can look at things and see whether or not an LLM from one of the top law schools is desirable/necessary.

Out of interest, do you have any extra-curriculars, do you have much work experience (like vacation schemes) and do you have career plans at the moment (eg. barrister/advocate, solicitor in a high street firm, provincial/regional firm etc.)

Reply 13

Craghyrax

KC1234

My attitude towards work has been the main problem. I have been able to get by with putting in very little effort which has become a habit. My priorities have also become skewed. This is why I want to go back and see what I am really capable of and not just continue the comfortable cycle of mediocrity into the workplace.

Nevermind the unlikeliness of getting in, if you battle with your 'attitude', Oxbridge is not for you!
Courses here will make people hate their subjects really fast unless they have extraordinarily high motivation and are genuinely in love with their subjects. A law undergraduate course at Cambridge involves at least two essays a week, and they have very tough supervisors. Its not an easy degree, and you pack all the work into two 8 week terms here. (Third is purely revision)

In your situation, getting through your current degree is the only sensible thing to do. You can review your options later. An ordinary is a blight on your record for life (if you don't have extenuating circumstances)
Just sort your attitude out and work for 18months.

Reply 14

OP

0404343m

Not a problem- I'm a case in point, I got through school finding most of it pretty easy- never had to scare myself into working, came out with a handy mix of As Bs and the odd C across 8 highers and advanced highers, hit the proverbial wall with software engineering (after very nearly taking up a law offer at Strathclyde), convinced myself I could do it if I tried, then switched to history, justifying it with the line that it was a subject I'd genuinely enjoy, and I did. It wasn't any less work though, and again I got through first year and second on predominantly Bs. Got to honours and realised if I wasn't going to be average, I'd really actually have to do some work- and thus found myself spending hours on end in the library making sure I knew everything inside out. It worked, but not without the kick up the backside which told me if I didn't, I might be ordinary, safe, 2:2 and going through my life telling people I could have done better if I tried. After a while, it fools no one. You have one chance at your first degree, it isn't too late to salvage it and go on to better things.

Yeah, our situation is very similar. This is a pattern I definitely want to get out of too. It sounds as though you are doing well for yourself now. Are you studying in Glasgow?

Reply 15

KC1234

Yeah, our situation is very similar. This is a pattern I definitely want to get out of too. It sounds as though you are doing well for yourself now. Are you studying in Glasgow?

I am. I was one of the oodles of people in this part of the world that doesn't really think much about university choices- I, like many in the west of Scotland, have no family tradition of higher education, it was (and to an extent still is) a working class area up until the 80s, so when it came to it, the (few) people in my school who actually went to university looked for a degree out of convenience- Strathclyde and Caledonian were just one bus ride away, Glasgow was a bus, walk and subway, and was harder to get into, so many didn't bother. Misguided as lots of people on TSR may be, they at least put some thought into university. In this neck of the woods where I'm originally from, university education and private schooling levels are well below the national average- people look no further than their nearest university, often not realising what effect it might have on them.

On one hand I wish I'd known more before I came to university about my choices (I applied to places I'd heard of in a small circle around me- Glasgow, Edinburgh, Strathclyde, Dundee, Durham), and had the same personal statement despite law and computer science both being down as applications. I originally picked Strathclyde, then backed out and luckily got cleared into Comp. Sci at Glasgow, as 2004 was a couple of years after the burst of the dot com boom, and no one wanted to go into IT, so the course wasn't full up. Best decision of my life, as that allowed the switch to history by virtue of being an existing student, and the more I think about it, I ended up at exactly the right place. It took me until I was 20 to seriously do any work though, school was a total doss around and a degree seemed to be more of the same. I kid you not- if the University of the West of Scotland had existed when I was at school- I'd have went there, purely for convenience. I knew so little it was quite shocking to think I managed to get anywhere.

Anyway, point of this is, there's no point in saying you aren't motivated etc etc etc or what you are capable of, because I tried it after scraping through first year programming and maths on a resit. No one really buys it, and at the end of the day, you'll be judged on your grades- not what you claim you could have got if you'd only worked. This is a permanent record you're going to have to stick with- and good marks in 4th year will pull you up. Its not unknown to only be sitting on a 2:1 by the end of 4th year- but by having exceptional final year marks has pulled them up to a first overall. The university look for 'progression' and if your marks are on an upward swing, they're happy to reward hard work. At Glasgow you need an average of 18/22 or above to guarantee a first- but anywhere between 17 and 18 is open to department discretion- so having a 15 in 3rd year (50%) and 20 in 4th (the other 50) stands you in good stead to be pulled up. Its far too early to worry about an ordinary degree or college again, if you put the work in, it doesn't sound like its beyond you.

As for me, I'm messing around with Ph.D applications at Glasgow, Durham and Oxford. I've been accepted, I just need to secure funding now. If you think thats hard, you've not seen the bureaucracy of the postgraduate research councils yet!!

Reply 16

OP

River85

Yes, that also occured to me. Also, they may not accept new A-levels/A-leves that have been retaken.

There is the postgrad option, although again this is expensive (and funding can be a bugger) and to have a reasonable chance of getting onto an LLM programme at any strong law school you'd a good 2:1 at the very least. If you do achieve the 2:1 or a 1st then is there any problem? Would you feel the need to "top up" your can undergrad degree? Because it's still possible to get a training contract at a provincial solicitors firm with a 2:1, even from a modest law school. Although your lack of consistancy during the degree may be an issue but one you can easily compensate for.

So you admit you have fallen into bad habits, but are you really sure you're able to get yourself out of them? Just concentrate on this degree, there's still plenty of time to pull things up. Work your arse off basically, leave these bad habits behind. Once you graduate then you can look at things and see whether or not an LLM from one of the top law schools is desirable/necessary.

Out of interest, do you have any extra-curriculars, do you have much work experience (like vacation schemes) and do you have career plans at the moment (eg. barrister/advocate, solicitor in a high street firm, provincial/regional firm etc.)

I am interested in becoming an Advocate which is why I thought a good degree from Oxbridge would make a better starting point (I would also need to complete some of the bar exams as I did not study Roman Law in my LLB). The top law firms in London also demand good A Level marks (or equivalent) and a good record throughout your degree.

I am also interested in Criminal Law. I think if I qualify with a 1st, it would still be possible to get a traineeship with a local Criminal Firm. It is nowhere near as well paid or prestigious as the other options but I think I would enjoy it.

I have worked in Financial Services and also more recently as a Casework Assistant for a local homelessness charity.

I had also thought about you LLM idea, I think it would probably be a better route to take.

Reply 17

OP

Craghyrax

Nevermind the unlikeliness of getting in, if you battle with your 'attitude', Oxbridge is not for you!
Courses here will make people hate their subjects really fast unless they have extraordinarily high motivation and are genuinely in love with their subjects. A law undergraduate course at Cambridge involves at least two essays a week, and they have very tough supervisors. Its not an easy degree, and you pack all the work into two 8 week terms here. (Third is purely revision)

In your situation, getting through your current degree is the only sensible thing to do. You can review your options later. An ordinary is a blight on your record for life (if you don't have extenuating circumstances)
Just sort your attitude out and work for 18months.

Thanks for this, you are probably right.

Reply 18

KC1234

Our situation is so similar, I have to laugh. I had no idea about Uni either and was the first of my family to go. I was at Paisley Grammar (a comprehensive) and got a good set of highers over 2 sittings, AABBBCC I think, without much effort. I knew I wanted to do Law but didn't have the 5th year grades to get a place at Glasgow or Edinburgh (I didn't realise I should have done 5 highers and worked a lot harder at the time). I did get a place at Glasgow to do Social Sciences which I wish I had taken, but instead opted to do Law at Glasgow Caledonian instead. I did ok in first year and not so well in second year. I had to repeat a couple of modules after which I became a bit disillusioned and thought no matter how well I did, my Univesity and average marks would put me at a disadvantage in future.

I know I need to turn it around though and thought starting again would be the best Idea. I do enjoy law, I think I rushed into Uni a little too quickly and made a few bad choices along the way. Glasgow is a good place for getting carried away, quite literally!

You can't have been a million miles away from a Strathclyde offer- I had them and Dundee for Law and the other three for Comp Sci/Software Eng. I had AABBC with the C in maths in 5th, and was set a fairly easy conditional to get in to Strath and the same at Dundee. Unconditionals for Glasgow/Edinburgh and a conditional for Durham (since it was a three year course). The way things work with UCAS by accepting Strath and picking Glasgow as my insurance, meant when I decided mid-summer not to do Law, I was released into clearing, not to my insurance, but luckily the course was at its lowest ebb across the country, and they only had something like 180 meeting the grades out of a 250 capacity, so getting in wasn't a problem. Hated it- but it did allow me to get into history, and I've never looked back. Had I known more, I'd have tried harder and ended up at Glasgow or Edinburgh law, probably stuck it through and had an uneventful life as a lawyer- and probably treated it with indifference. Lucky I didn't though.

As I say- it took me a while, and 3rd year is by no means the end of the world. You can resit the year if need be- I'm not sure how the Caley law weightings go, but 3rd year will not be more than 50%, and that certainly is salvageable. Best case scenario, its worth nothing (or very little) and by getting your head down now, you can come out with a first. LL.M at any university is possible after that, and that in turn will help you get interviews with firms. After that, its down to how you perform. The name on the degree might help you get shortlisted for the interview- but it wont help you get a job.

Reply 19