Was it Israel or was it Palestine during the British rule?

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Axes
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#81
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#81
I get most of my sources from books rather than wikipedia - but here is a nicely sourced article explaining jizya


lol, 'answering-christianity.com'? The equivalent would be for me to use a Zionist source with regards to Islam. Sorry, I said impartial, like the source I presented.




In the middle ages, if you weren't part of the institutionalised religion, you were subject to subjugation whether, catholic, jew or protestant. Treatment of dhimmis in the ME was far better and Jews were living in relative harmony there. You can only judge people by standards of the times.


Sadly, those taxes continued well past the middle-ages.





You're contradicting yourself here. You said the area was stateless, but then you're saying it was part of a bigger state i.e. Ottoman Empire and the UK.



My bad, I I meant it was not a state. I never denied that it was ruled, and was indeed part of, other states and empires, like the Ottoman or British empires. The region of Palestine itself was never a state, but rather a region.
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Captain Crash
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#82
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(Original post by Axes)
lol, 'answering-christianity.com'? The equivalent would be for me to use a Zionist source with regards to Islam. Sorry, I said impartial, like the source I presented.
The article was sourced well enough, judge it on it's own terms. However look at your article for proof - the Jizya was levied only at adult men and judged on his income, rate varying from place to place. The Zakat required Muslims to pay 2.5% annually on everything they own. Bear in mind your article states the typical tax was 12-24 dirhams.

(Original post by Axes)

My bad, I I meant it was not a state. I never denied that it was ruled, and was indeed part of, other states and empires, like the Ottoman or British empires. The region of Palestine itself was never a state, but rather a region.
So..... Palestine was part of a state and was never stateless?
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Axes
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#83
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The article was sourced well enough, judge it on it's own terms. However look at your article for proof - the Jizya was levied only at adult men and judged on his income, rate varying from place to place. The Zakat required Muslims to pay 2.5% annually on everything they own. Bear in mind your article states the typical tax was 12-24 dirhams.


And all that info comes from a source no different than www.debunking-islam.com. Even if your claim to 'good sources' is correct, the very fact that this is a propaganda source means it can draw selective information and take it out of context, as many propaganda sites do. 9/11 conspiracy sites allso cite goot information, it doesnt make them the least bit credible. Honestly, you can do better than this.


So..... Palestine was part of a state and was never stateless?



No different than trance-jordan, yes. Palestine was a region that throughout history, was ruled by different powers, it was never a state, nor did the Palestinians develop a national identity prior to the 20th centuary.
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Captain Crash
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#84
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(Original post by Axes)
And all that info comes from a source no different than www.debunking-islam.com. Even if your claim to 'good sources' is correct, the very fact that this is a propaganda source means it can draw selective information and take it out of context, as many propaganda sites do. 9/11 conspiracy sites allso cite goot information, it doesnt make them the least bit credible. Honestly, you can do better than this.
The article's features on many sites - that was just the first I came to.

It doesn't change the fact your own link provides info that the Jizya is neccesarily more than the Zakat.


(Original post by Axes)


No different than trance-jordan, yes. Palestine was a region that throughout history, was ruled by different powers, it was never a state, nor did the Palestinians develop a national identity prior to the 20th centuary.
So..... it wasn't a stateless area and Jews couldn't just pitch up and set up their own state?
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Asert
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#85
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#85
Palestine

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Roberto_Ferrari
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Asert)
Palestine

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Demographics are irrelevant. During the British Mandate the area was controlled/supervised by Britain, hence the name.
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Captain Crash
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#87
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(Original post by Roberto_Ferrari)
Demographics are irrelevant. During the British Mandate the area was controlled/supervised by Britain, hence the name.
It is relevant if we're talking about self-determination.
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Roberto_Ferrari
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#88
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(Original post by Captain Crash)
It is relevant if we're talking about self-determination.
But we're not. The question posed by the OP I think is what was it called pre 1948. The simple answer is British Mandate. No debate about it.
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Captain Crash
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#89
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(Original post by Roberto_Ferrari)
But we're not. The question posed by the OP I think is what was it called pre 1948. The simple answer is British Mandate. No debate about it.
The debate has moved on. Besides it was the British Mandate of Palestine
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L i b
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#90
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(Original post by Disorder)
My point stands the Passport and this map speak volumes for anyone with an open mind that wants to learn, It was a Palestine before and should be till today, it was officially recognized by the British as Palestine (The Passport) then the Zionist movement came in and took away the lands from the people created the many refugees and we got a conflict that has never stopped since.
The name of a state doesn't matter. I'll agree, Palestine is a more politically and religiously neutral name for the area.

You are arguing that because it was the British Mandate of Palestine before it should be the British Mandate of Palestine now? Why?
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borismor
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#91
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(Original post by Captain Crash)
The debate has moved on. Besides it was the British Mandate of Palestine
"Palestine" was the name of the geographical area of the mandate and nothing more.

The name was given to the area by the Roman empire after the Jews rebelled, not because there were any Palestinians there.

Before that it was known as "Judea".

The name "Palestine" pre dates the concept of Palestinian people.
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Axes
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#92
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It doesn't change the fact your own link provides info that the Jizya is neccesarily more than the Zakat.


That's because it wasnt part of my original claim. I have stated that non-muslims have to pay a tax, and backed it up. You replied that the Muslims tax is infact higher, and failed to back it up.




So..... it wasn't a stateless area and Jews couldn't just pitch up and set up their own state?


It was a region within a disintegrating empire, with no national identity, that was never a state. So, yes, they had every right to legally buy lands which no one else owned and erect whatever they wanted there.
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borismor
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#93
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(Original post by Axes)
It was a region within a disintegrating empire, with no national identity, that was never a state. So, yes, they had every right to legally buy lands which no one else owned and erect whatever they wanted there.
Erm, I don't mean to nag, but you can only buy land if it's already owned by someone. :-)

Otherwise there's no need to buy it, you can simply claim it.
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Neville 'Facking' Bartos
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#94
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(Original post by Roberto_Ferrari)
There has never ever been a country called Palestine,
1770: There has never ever been a country called America
1820: There has never ever been a country called Brazil
1900: There has never ever been a country called Australia
1961: There has never ever been a country called Kenya

or a Palestinian people,
The year is 2009, not 1969.

and there won't be a Palestinian state unless they drop terror and choose peace and recognise Israel
A state for the non-existent people? Nice...
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Axes
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#95
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[QUOTE]
(Original post by Neville 'Facking' Bartos)
1770: There has never ever been a country called America
1820: There has never ever been a country called Brazil
1900: There has never ever been a country called Australia
1961: There has never ever been a country called Kenya


And just like Israel, they were all created in regions that did not have a national identity in them, thus legitemate.



The year is 2009, not 1969.


Right, and Jewish immigration and statehood did not occur in 2009, but rather 60 years ago, at a time when there wasnt any Palestinian nationality.
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Neville 'Facking' Bartos
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#96
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(Original post by Axes)
And just like Israel, they were all created in regions that did not have a national identity in them, thus legitemate.
I wouldn't be too sure that, there was Kenya (Kikuyu call for independence most definitely) and Australia as well (granting of dominion then Statute). Even so I can name many more countries: Uzbekistan, Iraq, Spain, Afghanistan etc. and practically most countries of the world at one stage didn't 'exist'.

Right, and Jewish immigration and statehood did not occur in 2009, but rather 60 years ago, at a time when there wasnt any Palestinian nationality.
Looks familiar?

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Axes
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#97
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I wouldn't be too sure that, there was Kenya (Kikuyu call for independence most definitely) and Australia as well (granting of dominion then Statute). Even so I can name many more countries: Uzbekistan, Iraq, Spain, Afghanistan etc. and practically most countries of the world at one stage didn't 'exist'.


Exactly, and just like Israel, they were created. Israel, like the US, Canada, Australia, was created in a region without a national identity, thus its creation was legitemate.





Looks familiar?

To what, exactly?
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Neville 'Facking' Bartos
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#98
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(Original post by Axes)
Exactly, and just like Israel, they were created. Israel, like the US, Canada, Australia, was created in a region without a national identity, thus its creation was legitemate.
I don't know much of the history of American, Canadian, Australian natives to warrant a reply if they had a 'national identity' or not. While the point about 'legitimancy', this is a subjective point to say the least, as there was an existing population there already with an 'identity', whether their identity was Palestinian, Syrian or Arab.


To what, exactly?
Point was, you'd be hard pressed to find a national movement that doesn't have a flag.
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Axes
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#99
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I don't know much of the history of American, Canadian, Australian natives to warrant a reply if they had a 'national identity' or not. While the point about 'legitimancy', this is a subjective point to say the least, as there was an existing population there already with an 'identity', whether their identity was Palestinian, Syrian or Arab.

It's identity was minor (not in importance but rather geography). An Arab from nablus was an arab from Nablus, that was his identity. Same with a Jaffan arab or a Jerusalemite. Thus, their national identity did not encompass the whole region of Palestine. As a result, since 95% of the land was state land at the time, with no claiment, the Jews had every right to legally buy it and settle in it.
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ceesboogaart
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#100
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there was never a jewish nation, it was part of Palestine, and they were first pagan(mothergoddess) then jewish PALESTINIANS (900-700 BCE) then around 1 CE some became christians, and after 600/700 CE some became muslim PALESTINIANS. But Israeli's. they are not J1 (Palestinian DNA) but mostly 7 other DNA groups, btw semitic is about language not race/dna, and since Hebrew is just 2% and arabic 90% of semitic SPEAKING, it's obvious Isareli's are MOST anti-semitic This is what ISRAELI archaeologists Ze'v Herzog and Israel Finkelstein have learned from their excavations in the Land of Kingdom of Israel/Judea in Palestine: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Kingdom of Israel/Judea in Palestine, EL later YHWH, (Jaweh), a Jordan weather deity, had a female consort (Aserah) and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Judaism started 900-700 BCE and not 4000 BCE, that is all plagerised from older sources of other civiliazations like most of their religion also was copied
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