The Student Room Group

Globalisation

I'll be very very brief to start with...

There are two schools of thought on globalisation.

One says it's evil and just a tool for multinational corportations to exploit third world labour, or a way of 'Americanising' the world.

The other says it's great and modernising helps developing countries (eg Taiwan) to become developed, stand on their own feet, be an economic success etc.


I personally stand in the 'globalisation is good' camp, and would be interested to hear the arguments from the other side of the fence.

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Reply 1
Zurich
I'll be very very brief to start with...

There are two schools of thought on globalisation.

One says it's evil and just a tool for multinational corportations to exploit third world labour, or a way of 'Americanising' the world.

The other says it's great and modernising helps developing countries (eg Taiwan) to become developed, stand on their own feet, be an economic success etc.


I personally stand in the 'globalisation is good' camp, and would be interested to hear the arguments from the other side of the fence.


I have never heard a COGENT arguemnt against it ... indeed - the protests in Genoa, Seattle and th elike are terribly organised and have no voice whatsoever - they seem to have no interest in getting a message out.
Reply 2
Zurich
... helps developing countries (eg Taiwan) to become developed, stand on their own feet, be an economic success etc.


Sorry to nitpick, but Taiwan is not a country.

Depending on what exactly you mean, globalisation is not in fact a recent phenomenon (but concern with it is) and not purely about economics.
Reply 3
Lawz-
I have never heard a COGENT arguemnt against it ... indeed - the protests in Genoa, Seattle and th elike are terribly organised and have no voice whatsoever - they seem to have no interest in getting a message out.


I thought their message was crystal clear: globalisation is bad.
Reply 4
vivado
I thought their message was crystal clear: globalisation is bad.


Well that's not an argument is it? Thats a conclusion bereft of all argument to support it.
Reply 5
Lawz-
Well that's not an argument is it? Thats a conclusion bereft of all argument to support it.


Of course it is not the whole argument, but it certainly is a message (your own word) which they bring across with great effect from well-meaning reasons. Protesters are not there to dish out their entire arguments (that you can find on their websites, in books, etc. which are all easily accessible). Protesters are there to... protest. Simple as that. :smile:
Reply 6
vivado
Of course it is not the whole argument, but it certainly is a message (your own word) which they bring across with great effect from well-meaning reasons. Protesters are not there to dish out their entire arguments (that you can find on their websites, in books, etc. which are all easily accessible). Protesters are there to... protest. Simple as that. :smile:


Well if you read my post - and the CONTEXT of message - that obviously entailed some sort of reasoned and principled contention... To simply say that their message is "globalisation is bad" is pretty meaningless... if you want to get your ideas taken up - you have to show why they are valid. The anti-globalisation movement dont do that very well at all.
Reply 7
vivado
Sorry to nitpick, but Taiwan is not a country. Really? How do you decide what is a country? Taiwan has a government and armed forces. What more does it need?


Globalisation involves governments ceding power to multinational companies which have no responsibility except- allegedly- to their sghre-holders and- very definitely- to their executive directors. Even within worldwide free trade it would be perfectly possible to vary the degree of globalisation and the power of these companies by altering the amount paid in taxes for fuel, say, by altering general tax regimes to prevent the tendency for companies to amalgamate and grow larger. and by better controlling the inevitable tendencies to monopolies and cartels.
Globalisation also tends to impose a global "lowest common denominator" culture through the power of those companies and their ability to impose their standards and wishes on the world and persuade everyone that they want what they are obliged to choose.
Economically and politically, for all the claims its advocates make, globalisation has a disastrous effect on third world countries. The massive agricultural subsidies given to European and North American farmers help to destroy local agricultural industries, especially peasant farmers; the requirement for low-skilled cheap labour [supplied by destroying traditional agriculture] enables corrupt busineesmen and brutal politicians to dominate countries. In fact, for all the claims of industrial aid from globalisation, I don't think there is a single case of a country successfully industrialising without protectionism.
The pseudo-question of immigration was often mentioned in the British general election. A world with globalised industries logically ought to entail globalised labour too, and does in practise, so for supporters of industrial globalisation to complain about human globalisation is hypocritical. In fact, by encouraging illegal immigration, illegal workers and the resulting abuses and exploitation, immigration laws help the most dishonest and brutal capitalists and distort labour costs to their benefit.
As it is, globalisation is a hand-over of power to the greedy and unprincipled presented to the world as both inevitable and beneficial. It should be resisted in its current form. An obvious start would be to impose taxes on aircraft fuel, prevent globalised companies shifting their money round the eworld to evade taxes and to stop tax relief on expenditure for advertising.
Reply 8
Lawz-
Well if you read my post - and the CONTEXT of message - that obviously entailed some sort of reasoned and principled contention... To simply say that their message is "globalisation is bad" is pretty meaningless... if you want to get your ideas taken up - you have to show why they are valid. The anti-globalisation movement dont do that very well at all.


I really don't think that a broad but clear message as "globalisation is bad" is "meaningless" at all, given that it is, in fact, the thesis statement of their arguments and the very basis of their actions. Besides, what is "meaningless" is highly subjective and, I suspect, may depend on your own allegiances in this particular subject of deliberation. (Political groups aren't known their benevolence to their opponents, are they? :wink: )

Incidentally, I don't see why we should accept your contention that the anti-globalisation movement does not demonstrate the validity of its arguments very well without your showing why it is valid. :smile:
Reply 9
vivado
I really don't think that a broad but clear message as "globalisation is bad" is "meaningless" at all, given that it is, in fact, the thesis statement of their arguments and the very basis of their actions. Besides, what is "meaningless" is highly subjective and, I suspect, may depend on your own allegiances in this particular subject of deliberation. (Political groups aren't known their benevolence to their opponents, are they? :wink: )

Incidentally, I don't see why we should accept your contention that the anti-globalisation movement does not demonstrate the validity of its arguments very well without your showing why it is valid. :smile:



Its not LINGISTICALLY meaningless but it IS meaningless in relation to the debate in that it fails to convert anyone ... its an empty contention ... like me saying "x is bad" without any real reasoning... as such, anyone who fails to understand the topic will be unable to lend any credence to the claim. Protests are, by their nature a public demonstration of support for a particular idea, in an attempt to gain more support for the cause. To protest without explaining the reasons renders that fairly unlikely.

It has NOTHING to do with bias... I actually dont understand their arguments, so I cant comment on them.

And how I KNOW that they arent vocalising their arguments well is that VERY VERY few people have been able to tell me what they are. They seem to be having a hard time getting their "Message" or "argument" out there...
Reply 10
There's different schools of "anti-globalization".

The fair trade argument is quite coherent and supported by lots of charities, economists and social scientists. Saying simply that it is ill-thought out is as ill-thought out as saying something like liberalism or socialism is ill-thought out. The main argument is that unscrupulous western countries block African imports while forcing them to not do the same. A Globalizer's chief riposte is that this has nothing to do with Globalization (real free trade opposes ALL tariffs), but that Africa's main problem is its poor governance and culture of theft which makes international investment pretty much ignore it.

The incoherent school is the Marxist moonbats who are disgruntled that the Soviet Empire failed in conquering the world. But they will go on fighting, finding any desperate way to destroy international capitalism they can!
Reply 11
vivado
Depending on what exactly you mean, globalisation is not in fact a recent phenomenon (but concern with it is) and not purely about economics.


That's one of my points, globalisation dates back as far as people themselves. It is human nature to want to better yourself and expand your borders.

Imperialism was, of course, globalisation and many countries (particularly in African) suffered a lot more once the British left.

My interest in the subject has been triggered by lectures at uni. The negative side of the issue viewed globalisation as a form of cultural imperialism (assuming that is indeed a bad thing) and a tool used by 'western' nations to dominate the globe and exert power over 'developing' nations.

It's not as though the negatives don't have an argument, we've seen some pretty horrific cases of exploitation in developing countries at the hands of well-known multi-national corporations.

But every argument seems to crumble into nothing after a sentence or two... I was hoping to find some crazy tree hugger who will argue to the death against globalisation :biggrin:

For some reason my course only seems to see it as an economical issue, they've barely touched on the cultural side of things.
Reply 12
Weejimmie
Really? How do you decide what is a country? Taiwan has a government and armed forces. What more does it need?


It needs to be recognized by most of the major powers in the world; as things stand now, there isn't a single major country that recognizes Taiwan. And no, Nicaragua and Costa Rica don't count.

Globalisation involves governments ceding power to multinational companies which have no responsibility except- allegedly- to their sghre-holders and- very definitely- to their executive directors.


And who are the shareholders? The rich? More than half of Americans own stocks. Most private pension programs invest in stocks. The shareholder is the average person on the street. Why you'd trust the economy to some nameless government bureacrat who couldn't care less about how the economy is doing instead of a hard-working person whose life depends on improving the economy is beyond me.

Globalisation also tends to impose a global "lowest common denominator" culture through the power of those companies and their ability to impose their standards and wishes on the world and persuade everyone that they want what they are obliged to choose.


It takes two to make a contract. Multinationals don't impose anything on anyone. Governments choose to allow them into their countries because they're good for the economy. Workers choose to work for them because they pay more than local firms. Consumers choose to buy from them because they offer lower prices. Anti-globalizationists, on the other hand, don't like choice. They want to impose their views on the rest of the world. When they can't convince someone with a rational argument, they start clamoring for more laws.

Economically and politically, for all the claims its advocates make, globalisation has a disastrous effect on third world countries. The massive agricultural subsidies given to European and North American farmers help to destroy local agricultural industries, especially peasant farmers;


As you yourself mentioned, globalization requires free trade. Agricultural subsidies are not a part of globalization; they are a part of the mercantilist ideology that never quite died away.

the requirement for low-skilled cheap labour [supplied by destroying traditional agriculture] enables corrupt busineesmen and brutal politicians to dominate countries.


Or perhaps people go to those factories because that's where the salary is highest? Substinance agricultural doesn't guarantee anything other than a supply of food, and even that might not be forthcoming if there is a drought or a flood. An economy of a country cannot improve until people start producing goods and services for someone other than themselves. If you like traditional agriculture so much, then why don't you move to Ethiopia and try your luck?

In fact, for all the claims of industrial aid from globalisation, I don't think there is a single case of a country successfully industrialising without protectionism.


Protection of infant industries is meant to be short-term; it's certainly not supposed to last more than a decade. Some people forget that minor fact and think that a country can industrialize by being protectionist. Nothing can be further from the truth. A country can begin to industrialize, but it won't get very far without opening its markets to international competition.

Furthermore, countries shouldn't be trying to produce goods that are other countries have a comparative advantage in producing. Each country has a comparative advantage in something, and it should use that advantage to become one of the top producers in the world of that good/service. A country also cannot simply go from being dirt poor to being rich in an instant. Poor countries have a comparative advantage in labor, and they should make use of that advantage to create a specialized work force, which can eventually be used to become higher on the value-added chain. Just look at countries like Japan and South Korea. For an entire generation, those countries were known for making cheap, poor-quality products. Look at them now. Now compare them to the countries in Latin America who thought they could skip that step.

As it is, globalisation is a hand-over of power to the greedy and unprincipled presented to the world as both inevitable and beneficial. It should be resisted in its current form. An obvious start would be to impose taxes on aircraft fuel, prevent globalised companies shifting their money round the eworld to evade taxes and to stop tax relief on expenditure for advertising.


The Soviet Union is dead. Get over it.
Reply 13
Bismarck
It needs to be recognized by most of the major powers in the world; as things stand now, there isn't a single major country that recognizes Taiwan.
Why does recognition make a country a country? The USA did not recognice the Peoples' Republic of China for many years: did that stop it being a country?
And no, Nicaragua and Costa Rica don't count.
In whose eyes?



And who are the shareholders? The rich? More than half of Americans own stocks. Most private pension programs invest in stocks. The shareholder is the average person on the street.
The share holder is the richer person in the US street, by your own definition. The richer people in the richest street, shall we say? The requirements of pension funds are such that they do not and cannot take much interest in how their investments are dealt with beyond apparent short-term profits. The "man in the street" who owns shares does so for a variety of reasons. the actual amount of knowledge they have about the companies in which they own shares is little. The influence they can have on the directors is still less.
Why you'd trust the economy to some nameless government bureacrat who couldn't care less about how the economy is doing instead of a hard-working person whose life depends on improving the economy is beyond me.
Why you think i propose to "trust the economy to some faceless government bureaucrat who couldn't care less about how the economy is doing instead of a hard-working person whose life depends on improving the economy" is beyond me, except that you may have overdosed on cliches and vomitted them out. Why you think the directors of private companies, who are supposedly concerned only with the profitability and expansion of their own company, are concerned or should be concerned about anything else is beyond me too. The directors are concerned with making money for themselves. If they can do so honestly they will. If they can only do so dishonestly- as Enron, for example, shows- they will do so that way. What they do not have any concern for is anything beyond the short-term- long enough for them to pocket their bonuses. By their nature they have no interest at all in anyone else. National industries can be forced to respect and submit to the interests of the country they are in. International industries have no interest but profit and no concern for anything else.



It takes two to make a contract.
As Al Capone pointed out.
Multinationals don't impose anything on anyone. Governments choose to allow them into their countries because they're good for the economy. Workers choose to work for them because they pay more than local firms. Consumers choose to buy from them because they offer lower prices.
In nearly every case they are left with no choice. The aspiration of all capitalist companies are to monopoly.
Anti-globalizationists, on the other hand, don't like choice. They want to impose their views on the rest of the world. When they can't convince someone with a rational argument, they start clamoring for more laws.

Multinational companies are very enthusiastic about laws too, if the laws stop people suing them for environmental damage, stop people going on strike, allow them to move their profits as they please and to help them set their own prices both to buy and sell.


As you yourself mentioned, globalization requires free trade. Agricultural subsidies are not a part of globalization; they are a part of the mercantilist ideology that never quite died away.
They are a part which benefits the richer and more powerful companies however, so, for all the rhetoric about it I don't think we will see US or European agriculture competing on an open market. Whenever an aspect of globalisation would be awkward for large companies it doesn't seem to occur.



Or perhaps people go to those factories because that's where the salary is highest? Substinance agricultural doesn't guarantee anything other than a supply of food, and even that might not be forthcoming if there is a drought or a flood.
Did I say anything about subsistence agriculture? I spoke of peasant agriculture, a rather different matter. Subsistence agriculture is a particular form of agriculture which is more affected by drought and floods because there is usually no infrastructure to control or alleviate them and because subsistence peasants- who are not the only knid of peasants- have no reserves to see them through.
An economy of a country cannot improve until people start producing goods and services for someone other than themselves.
Did I say otherwise? The effect of globalisation, however, is often to destroy the economy of a country and create a lumpenproletariat, which is desperate for work and willing to accept almost any terms for it.
If you like traditional agriculture so much, then why don't you move to Ethiopia and try your luck?
Ethiopian traditional agriculture is not the only variety, as it happens. By all accounts, however, allowing for the predations of feudal lords and marxist ideologues, before it was damaged by the effects of over-population, it was pretty efficient.



Protection of infant industries is meant to be short-term; it's certainly not supposed to last more than a decade.
Says who? Certainly not the idelogues of globalisation: they say markets should be open from the first.
Some people forget that minor fact and think that a country can industrialize by being protectionist. Nothing can be further from the truth. A country can begin to industrialize, but it won't get very far without opening its markets to international competition.
I think you will find that the govenments of Japan, Taiwan and South Korea and the US government throughout the nineteenth century disagreed with you. Certainly, it was only when industries were well-established, after much more than a decade, they began to open their markets to international competition and even then there were unofficial controls- such as the mystical claims for the superiority of Japanese rice.

Furthermore, countries shouldn't be trying to produce goods that are other countries have a comparative advantage in producing. Each country has a comparative advantage in something, and it should use that advantage to become one of the top producers in the world of that good/service.
Ah. Colombia has a comparative advantage in cocaine production, the Phillipines in domestic servant production, eastern Europe in industrial pollution production, so they should concentrate on producing those. The advantage of skill in producing a commodity depends on many things. colombia's edge in cocaine production, despite the enormous profitability of the product, is likely to remain, while it can begin to outdo traditional producers of heroin such as Thailand and Afghanistan because there is less concern with the legality of production. Other agricultural products are different. You only have to compare enother Colombian industry- cut flowers- or coffee. A few years ago, coffee was a very profitable crop; so profitable that countries were encouraged to grow it as a cash crop and the price- wholesale- crashed. The price it costs for you to buy a pound of coffee beans hasn't changed much: the few multinational companies made increased profits. They could wait- the growers couldn't. They may no longer have been subsistence farmers but internatinal debtors are as inexorable as fire and flood. Agricultural products are much easier for trading companies to manipulate the price. If the products are legal it is even easier.
A country also cannot simply go from being dirt poor to being rich in an instant. Poor countries have a comparative advantage in labor, and they should make use of that advantage to create a specialized work force, which can eventually be used to become higher on the value-added chain. Just look at countries like Japan and South Korea. For an entire generation, those countries were known for making cheap, poor-quality products. Look at them now. Now compare them to the countries in Latin America who thought they could skip that step.
Rather more important for the South American countries was the presence of the US manufacturing industries which could make manufactured goods cheaper and the US government's habit of installing governments which pleased the US government and US firms.
The Soviet Union is dead. Get over it.
Got over it. However, I am no more enthusiastic about Engulf and Devour Inc running the world than i was about Joe Stalin and his successors' ambitions.
Oh, not really relevant, but this is a new theory i came across a few days ago:
"Glocalisation"
The following is an extract, have a read if you can be bothered.

When the Berlin Wall came tumbling down just over 10 years ago, it seemed to symbolise what many people had come to realise for some time. That the principles of democracy, open markets and rule of law had won that long twilight struggle against totalitarianism, centrally planned economies and oppression.

This victory appeared to cause more confusion than celebration amongst the holders of these virtuous principles. In one sudden moment the certainties of the Cold War ended. A new paradigm was needed for this unipolar moment. George Bush scrambling for a vision of the future came up with a ‘New World Order’. This new order was always under stress because of its inherent contradictions. On one hand Bush supported managed, not free, trade, on the other hand he called for a greater use of multilateral bodies such as the United Nations and the now formed World Trade Organisation.

Clinton picked up on one aspect of Bush’s New World Order better use of multilateral organisations and the open markets that follow from their use. This theory was already known as Globalisation, but Clinton helped popularise it.

Globalisation presented Clinton with a foreign policy that he could live with. By promoting free trade, Clinton was helping create jobs in America. By weaving the economies of the world together, Clinton was promoting peace. The Japanese could never bomb Pearl Harbour again, some argued, they own too much of it.

This theory of peace through prosperity is not new. Liberals long argued that free trade benefited countries because it reduced the prospect of war. David Ricardo, who did more to promote free trade than any other one person, proved that even if your trading partners are better producers than you at everything, it still benefits you to trade with them.

In Thomas Friedman’s book The Lexus and the Olive Tree the benefits of Globalisation are put in the context of cultural change. Countries that adhere to transparent and open markets, or what Friedman calls the Golden Straight Jacket, benefit from rising incomes. Friedman says that technology is making Globalisation inevitable as represented by the Lexus, but people yearn to have cultural roots like their Olive Trees.

How else do you explain the ‘split screen’ of wars over pieces of desert not larger than a suburb, while conferences convene to determine how to develop better Global Financial Infrastructure? Indeed, why if Globalisation brings so many benefits are so many people opposed?

One explanation lies in public choice theory. This theory says that even though the benefits may be greater than the costs, if the costs are concentrated amongst the few and the benefits amongst the many, opponents will be more motivated than proponents.

One only needs to remember the WTO gathering in Seattle to witness this theory in action. In Seattle, the openness and transparency of the WTO meetings were somewhat hampered by all the tear gas. Protesters against Globalisation seemed to be distinctly lacking in the irony stakes as they riled against free trade using Sony walkmans and Nokia mobile phones, while wearing Indian made clothes designed in Italy and down loading music on that avant-garde instrument of globalisation, the Internet.

The technology that makes it easier to fly around the world is also making it easier to bring the world together. That is why Glocalisation is a better description for what is happening in the world today. It is not just making things bigger, it is also making them a lot smaller. Peace and prosperity are much more likely when we all feel part of the same neighbourhood. Only Glocalisation looks like achieving this. Fearing it, or trying to stop it, is not just a failure to recognise its benefits, but also very damaging to the millions who seek to leave the poverty to which they were born.

The paradox of Glocalisation is that it does not discriminate between its opponents and supporters. They both seem to do pretty well out of it. Nor does it discriminate against black and white, poor and rich, et cetera. But it does discriminate between the skilled and unskilled in short, it is building a society of merit. It is our society’s obligation to ensure equality of opportunity in this new meritocracy.

So long as they are willing to use the technology, the opponents of Glocalisation have some very powerful tools. From eMail and websites to mobile phones it is now easier to organise against misery (perceived or real) than ever before. Now what could be more open and transparent than that?
I don't want to get into this but Keynes and Adam Smith were more or less against globalisation, or at least very vocal about the threat it posed to democracy.
Reply 16
Tomorrow2Day
I don't want to get into this but Keynes and Adam Smith were more or less against globalisation, or at least very vocal about the threat it posed to democracy.


Um...no. Adam Smith was the one who created the concept.
Reply 17
I'm not really sure if i like the idea or not. It can be very damaging to the enviroment, and let's places like disney and walmart use sweatshops in places like Bengladesh. They conditions for the workers are disgusting, 17 cents an hour is about the max. wage. 15-18 hour shifts are not at all rare.
Reply 18
PadFoot90
I'm not really sure if i like the idea or not. It can be very damaging to the enviroment, and let's places like disney and walmart use sweatshops in places like Bengladesh. They conditions for the workers are disgusting, 17 cents an hour is about the max. wage. 15-18 hour shifts are not at all rare.


And what's the alternative? Being beaten by the boss, getting paid 5 cents an hour and working in even less sanitary conditions?

Thanks to people who thought that "sweatshops" are bad, thousands of women in Pakistan lost their jobs sewing footballs, and a sizeable portion was forced to turn to prostitution. Not a single one of those woman wanted to lose her job. There are teenagers in Thailand who are the only source of income in their extended families, and they get this income ($2 a day) by working 6-day weeks in factories. Not a single one wants the factory to disappear. Instead of imposing their views on other people, the anti-globalizationists should actually try speaking to the people working at the "sweatshops". See how many of them don't like their job.
Reply 19
The alternative? I don't think it would exactly run walmart and disney into the ground to pay them at least liveable wages. For a few more cents, they could actually move UP to poverty.