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LL.M. (or BCL) at LSE, Cambridge, or Oxford, which one?
Greetings:
I am from the US and am interested in pursuing a Master of Laws degree in international law with a focus on international commercial transactions/arbitration and international corporate transactions (M&A, joint ventures, private equity and venture capital...all that goodstuff), in particular, with respect to Europe.
I am looking for a few things, 1) name recognition (both in the US and abroad), 2) quality of faculty, 3) quality and quantity of courses in my areas of interest, etc. I am looking to use the degree not only in the short-run, for immediate employment (preferably in Europe), but also in the long-run, to enter the world of academia somewhere down the road.
I have been looking at British schools, in particular, LSE, Cambridge, and Oxford. All three have a superb reputation in the US. From what I have been told LSE is considered a step below good ol' Cambridge and Oxford. Although, it seems to me that, at least with respect to my areas of interest, LSE is above Oxbridge. Oxbridge gives me the impression that it is more academia oriented, whereas LSE seems to be geared more for the practitioner (being based in London may have something to do with that).
I am not sure if any of these programs would even admit me (in my JD program I graduate with a mix of grades mostly Bs, and some As and a few Cs, in my LL.M. course I received straight As), but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone may have.
Cheers,
FR
I am from the US and am interested in pursuing a Master of Laws degree in international law with a focus on international commercial transactions/arbitration and international corporate transactions (M&A, joint ventures, private equity and venture capital...all that goodstuff), in particular, with respect to Europe.
I am looking for a few things, 1) name recognition (both in the US and abroad), 2) quality of faculty, 3) quality and quantity of courses in my areas of interest, etc. I am looking to use the degree not only in the short-run, for immediate employment (preferably in Europe), but also in the long-run, to enter the world of academia somewhere down the road.
I have been looking at British schools, in particular, LSE, Cambridge, and Oxford. All three have a superb reputation in the US. From what I have been told LSE is considered a step below good ol' Cambridge and Oxford. Although, it seems to me that, at least with respect to my areas of interest, LSE is above Oxbridge. Oxbridge gives me the impression that it is more academia oriented, whereas LSE seems to be geared more for the practitioner (being based in London may have something to do with that).
I am not sure if any of these programs would even admit me (in my JD program I graduate with a mix of grades mostly Bs, and some As and a few Cs, in my LL.M. course I received straight As), but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone may have.
Cheers,
FR
Scroll to see replies
freich
Greetings:
I am from the US and am interested in pursuing a Master of Laws degree in international law with a focus on international commercial transactions/arbitration and international corporate transactions (M&A, joint ventures, private equity and venture capital...all that goodstuff), in particular, with respect to Europe.
I am looking for a few things, 1) name recognition (both in the US and abroad), 2) quality of faculty, 3) quality and quantity of courses in my areas of interest, etc. I am looking to use the degree not only in the short-run, for immediate employment (preferably in Europe), but also in the long-run, to enter the world of academia somewhere down the road.
I have been looking at British schools, in particular, LSE, Cambridge, and Oxford. All three have a superb reputation in the US. From what I have been told LSE is considered a step below good ol' Cambridge and Oxford. Although, it seems to me that, at least with respect to my areas of interest, LSE is above Oxbridge. Oxbridge gives me the impression that it is more academia oriented, whereas LSE seems to be geared more for the practitioner (being based in London may have something to do with that).
I am not sure if any of these programs would even admit me (in my JD program I graduate with a mix of grades mostly Bs, and some As and a few Cs, in my LL.M. course I received straight As), but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone may have.
Cheers,
FR
I am from the US and am interested in pursuing a Master of Laws degree in international law with a focus on international commercial transactions/arbitration and international corporate transactions (M&A, joint ventures, private equity and venture capital...all that goodstuff), in particular, with respect to Europe.
I am looking for a few things, 1) name recognition (both in the US and abroad), 2) quality of faculty, 3) quality and quantity of courses in my areas of interest, etc. I am looking to use the degree not only in the short-run, for immediate employment (preferably in Europe), but also in the long-run, to enter the world of academia somewhere down the road.
I have been looking at British schools, in particular, LSE, Cambridge, and Oxford. All three have a superb reputation in the US. From what I have been told LSE is considered a step below good ol' Cambridge and Oxford. Although, it seems to me that, at least with respect to my areas of interest, LSE is above Oxbridge. Oxbridge gives me the impression that it is more academia oriented, whereas LSE seems to be geared more for the practitioner (being based in London may have something to do with that).
I am not sure if any of these programs would even admit me (in my JD program I graduate with a mix of grades mostly Bs, and some As and a few Cs, in my LL.M. course I received straight As), but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts that anyone may have.
Cheers,
FR
LSE's LLM is pretty poor. I am doing the BCL - which has a name for being the best taught postgrad course for law in the common law world.
The truth is that an LLM is not a practical degree. It isnt in the US - (outside of tax) - and it isnt really here. LSE is IMO overated. The BCL is worth doing, as is the LLM at Cambridge.
However the chance to do practically based courses in M&A will be limited.
However a BCL will be a VERY good way to get a VERY good job in the UK.
lawz,
can u do the BCL if you have completed a non-law related degree?
Cheers boss,
Mandeep
can u do the BCL if you have completed a non-law related degree?
Cheers boss,
Mandeep
cheers for that... am i right in presuming that the BVC is 2 years and also that you may be exempt frm the LPC? (no prolly to the latter!)
cheers,
Mandeep
cheers,
Mandeep
Khalsa1846
cheers for that... am i right in presuming that the BVC is 2 years and also that you may be exempt frm the LPC? (no prolly to the latter!)
cheers,
Mandeep
cheers,
Mandeep
No the BVC is one year and doesnt make you exempt from the LPC - its the route to being a barrister, the LPC to a solicitor.
Thanks for the info "Lawz"...I will keep that in mind. I did not realize that LSE is regarded as "poor". In the US, at least, it has a pretty solid reputation.
In terms of getting into the BCL or LL.M. at Cambridge, how realistic are my chances? I am sure that competition for these elite schools is pretty fierce. Like I said, in my JD program, I graduated with average grades, 3.0/4.0, a mix of Bs, As, and a few Cs (the school I went to graded on a C+ curve). In the LL.M., which I just finished, I graduated with a 3.9/4.0, mostly As, a few A-. I completed my LL.M. at American University (ranked 4th in the US for international law) in international law with a specialization in international business and trade.
I am not sure if you, or anyone else, are familiar with admission policies, and criteria schools use, but any thoughts are appreciated.
In terms of getting into the BCL or LL.M. at Cambridge, how realistic are my chances? I am sure that competition for these elite schools is pretty fierce. Like I said, in my JD program, I graduated with average grades, 3.0/4.0, a mix of Bs, As, and a few Cs (the school I went to graded on a C+ curve). In the LL.M., which I just finished, I graduated with a 3.9/4.0, mostly As, a few A-. I completed my LL.M. at American University (ranked 4th in the US for international law) in international law with a specialization in international business and trade.
I am not sure if you, or anyone else, are familiar with admission policies, and criteria schools use, but any thoughts are appreciated.
freich
Thanks for the info "Lawz"...I will keep that in mind. I did not realize that LSE is regarded as "poor". In the US, at least, it has a pretty solid reputation.
In terms of getting into the BCL or LL.M. at Cambridge, how realistic are my chances? I am sure that competition for these elite schools is pretty fierce. Like I said, in my JD program, I graduated with average grades, 3.0/4.0, a mix of Bs, As, and a few Cs (the school I went to graded on a C+ curve). In the LL.M., which I just finished, I graduated with a 3.9/4.0, mostly As, a few A-. I completed my LL.M. at American University (ranked 4th in the US for international law) in international law with a specialization in international business and trade.
I am not sure if you, or anyone else, are familiar with admission policies, and criteria schools use, but any thoughts are appreciated.
In terms of getting into the BCL or LL.M. at Cambridge, how realistic are my chances? I am sure that competition for these elite schools is pretty fierce. Like I said, in my JD program, I graduated with average grades, 3.0/4.0, a mix of Bs, As, and a few Cs (the school I went to graded on a C+ curve). In the LL.M., which I just finished, I graduated with a 3.9/4.0, mostly As, a few A-. I completed my LL.M. at American University (ranked 4th in the US for international law) in international law with a specialization in international business and trade.
I am not sure if you, or anyone else, are familiar with admission policies, and criteria schools use, but any thoughts are appreciated.
Not poor .. so much as relatively so - relative to its reputation and to the BCL I think it is poor. THey hav also broken away from the Uni of London - so they offer far fewer courses than they used to.
Sounds like you would have a pretty decent shot - there is a wide range of people on the course. What university did you do your LLM at?
sorry lawz i just saw ur reply n saw i write BVC...me being stupid (especially after doing law a-level!)...i meant to write BCL......is it 2yrs and an exemption to LPC? Also how much does it cost? Also does do i have to do CPE, then BCL (if i wanted to) and then LPC.....that is a LLLLOOOONNNGGG route to qualification as a lawyer ESPECIALLY if one has done a non-law related degree before!
thanks lawz..i owe u one for answering me q's!
Mandeep
thanks lawz..i owe u one for answering me q's!
Mandeep
Lawz-
Not poor .. so much as relatively so - relative to its reputation and to the BCL I think it is poor. THey hav also broken away from the Uni of London - so they offer far fewer courses than they used to.
Sounds like you would have a pretty decent shot - there is a wide range of people on the course. What university did you do your LLM at?
Sounds like you would have a pretty decent shot - there is a wide range of people on the course. What university did you do your LLM at?
I did my LL.M. at American University in Washington DC. Like I said, American University's law school is ranked 4th in the US for international law ( NYU is #1, followed by Columbia and Georgetown). American has an extremely strong reputation in international legal studies, especially in public international law and human rights law. One of the law professors here, who specializes in public international law and post conflict rebuilding, was just nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Oxford BCL is generally regarded as being a better course than the LLM. The difference is quite marginal but it does depend on whether you want to become a barrister/solicitor. (BCL is favoured by the barristers I hear: you need only look at the members to see that).
The LLM from LSE is, for most areas of law, considered to be the next best. Though Lawz comment that the BCL and LLM from Oxbridge are more highly regarded is true: the LLM from LSE still carries strong weight. The value added in terms of employment prospects depends on from where you graduated with your first degree.
Times have changed to some extent with regard to all postgraduate studies. The recently appointed and first black high court female judge stated, however, that her LLM was the deciding factor in her entry to chambers. And her LLM was from LSE.
The LLM from LSE is, for most areas of law, considered to be the next best. Though Lawz comment that the BCL and LLM from Oxbridge are more highly regarded is true: the LLM from LSE still carries strong weight. The value added in terms of employment prospects depends on from where you graduated with your first degree.
Times have changed to some extent with regard to all postgraduate studies. The recently appointed and first black high court female judge stated, however, that her LLM was the deciding factor in her entry to chambers. And her LLM was from LSE.
The BCL is longer, more rigorous and generally seen to be a more "serious" course.
As said - the prevalence of those three letters after the names of top QCs speaks volumes. I have also been told that the LLM at Cambridge is inferior (relatively that is) by the former head of law admissions at Tabland.
I still think the LLM from LSE is fairly overrated, I had offers from UCL, KCL, LSE, Cambridge, and the BCL... if it hadn’t been the BCL it would have been Cambridge, if it hadn’t been that ... it might well have been UCL (for a change of scenery from KCL), rather than LSE. I think LSE is becoming overly concerned with making money, and further, is rather full of itself
An LLM will generally make little difference in your getting a TC. As a barrister it matters more, and outside of the legal profession the name of the institution may add some cache... in the end though it is a prerequisite that you are interested in the subjects. It may though, clearly, tip the balance in a case where the race between applicants is particularly close.
As said - the prevalence of those three letters after the names of top QCs speaks volumes. I have also been told that the LLM at Cambridge is inferior (relatively that is) by the former head of law admissions at Tabland.
I still think the LLM from LSE is fairly overrated, I had offers from UCL, KCL, LSE, Cambridge, and the BCL... if it hadn’t been the BCL it would have been Cambridge, if it hadn’t been that ... it might well have been UCL (for a change of scenery from KCL), rather than LSE. I think LSE is becoming overly concerned with making money, and further, is rather full of itself
An LLM will generally make little difference in your getting a TC. As a barrister it matters more, and outside of the legal profession the name of the institution may add some cache... in the end though it is a prerequisite that you are interested in the subjects. It may though, clearly, tip the balance in a case where the race between applicants is particularly close.
Assuming that I was accepted to these programs, I think I would prefer Cambridge, simply because I love the town.
Does anyone know how selective Cambridge is (I imagine that gaining admission into the LL.M. is quite fierce)? In the US, schools often let applicants know how many applications were received the year prior, and the number of available seats in the class for that year.
Would the fact that I already have an LL.M. from a top international law program in the US help, in terms of gaining admission?
Does anyone know how selective Cambridge is (I imagine that gaining admission into the LL.M. is quite fierce)? In the US, schools often let applicants know how many applications were received the year prior, and the number of available seats in the class for that year.
Would the fact that I already have an LL.M. from a top international law program in the US help, in terms of gaining admission?
freich:
Your US LLM certainly won't hurt you chances of admission. I think you stand a fairly good chance of gaining admission, especially at LSE. I am an American interested in the same areas of law as you, and right now I plan to attend LSE's LLM program this fall. I did my J.D. at Iowa, graduated in the bottom range of the top third, NY Bar, and now am in my final year of a clerkship at the US District Court in Des Moines, IA. I was accepted at LSE and Georgetown, am waitlisted at NYU and Columbia, and rejected by Cambridge. It was very difficult to say no to Georgetown, but I really want to live overseas, in London or elsewhere in Europe, and thought LSE would give me a better shot to do that than Georgetown, especially because I could spend the year in London job hunting and trying to get interviews. I really don't know how much help the degree will be in securing an associate position with a US or UK international firm - my goal - but if nothing else I don't feel like I will be in a worse position, and I will really enjoy the classes and overall experience.
Lawz, are your assessments of the relative merits of the schools discussed altered if, like me and I assume freich, the goal is not to be a barrister or secure a solicitor training contract, but to be hired as a US attorney in a foreign office?
Thanks
Your US LLM certainly won't hurt you chances of admission. I think you stand a fairly good chance of gaining admission, especially at LSE. I am an American interested in the same areas of law as you, and right now I plan to attend LSE's LLM program this fall. I did my J.D. at Iowa, graduated in the bottom range of the top third, NY Bar, and now am in my final year of a clerkship at the US District Court in Des Moines, IA. I was accepted at LSE and Georgetown, am waitlisted at NYU and Columbia, and rejected by Cambridge. It was very difficult to say no to Georgetown, but I really want to live overseas, in London or elsewhere in Europe, and thought LSE would give me a better shot to do that than Georgetown, especially because I could spend the year in London job hunting and trying to get interviews. I really don't know how much help the degree will be in securing an associate position with a US or UK international firm - my goal - but if nothing else I don't feel like I will be in a worse position, and I will really enjoy the classes and overall experience.
Lawz, are your assessments of the relative merits of the schools discussed altered if, like me and I assume freich, the goal is not to be a barrister or secure a solicitor training contract, but to be hired as a US attorney in a foreign office?
Thanks
Elpo. It's basically: BCL===>Cambridge LLM====>LSE LLM. LSE's LLM is still highly regarded but I can understand why Lawz is ambivalent about the course because it is, perhaps, overpriced: I'm not doubting that. It's a pragmatic move by LSE because demand is always going to be strong for its LLM and it does improve job prospects.
The BCL is generally regarded as being the top of the three, but this is of particular importance if you plan to practice at the Bar. If you are not then, in all fairness, it makes little difference. For most graduate courses, from what I've heard, as long as you're accepted and you're competent you'll move up the career ladder.
If you can actually make it to a top set then it may make a difference, but only at the start of your career. After that it will be of little significance.
---
Everyone I've spoken to on the LLM at LSE are loving it. That's anecdotal but I don't think it's a waste of time. Regardless of what Lawz says, having a masters can definitely affect your job prospects. As he problably knows there are some chambers where there are virtually no members at all who do not have a postgraduate qualification. As for international firms: LSE has a good reputation with those in general.
"Hello,
I work in the HR department of a major law firm in London and I would like to give some useful informations in order to choose the right LLM.
When I recruit a young graduate I must choose in fixed lists (nearly the same lots of firms):
International commercial and business law: LSE, UCL, Aberdeen, Durham, kCL.
International tax law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Aberdeen
Commercial law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Edinburgh, Aberdeen/
European law: Durham, Birmingham, LSE, Aberdeen, Edinburgh.
Of course, Oxford and Cambridge are the best universities.
However, when you will make a decision you should bear in mind this ranking.
Yours faithfully...
Hi,
in order to give more accurate informations I will describe the methodology and aswer to your questions.
...
Why these Uni in my rankings?
About Oxford and Cambridge: If you have already a LLB from these universities, it might interesting to undertake a LLM elsewhere (but absolutely not necessary).
If you come from a foreign country, well, it is the "top" if you are accepted at Oxbrige. In a word, do not hesitate.
I always prefer a graduate from a foreign country which has already a specialism in his first degree (for instance a LLB, a JD, or a French maitrise in European law) ans Mjur from Oxford for instance than other candidates.
However, if you are not accepted at Oxbridge, If will comment my rankings it should help you:
LSE: An incredible international networks. Lots of very good links with big firms (with my firm too).
Aberdeen: I really do not understand the Guardian or the times...this university is strongly established in the city. A very good fame in oil and gas law as well as international commercial law. In the department of energy of my firm they all come from Aberdeen.
UCL and KCL: A very good choice but internationally thet are less known than LSE.
Edinburgh: An amazing university. LLM are considered as very good especially in commercial law. Personnally I appreciate this university.
Durham: as a graduate from the MBA of Durham I love university. The department is one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. Furthermore the department of law is well considered especially in European legal studies and international trade and commercial law.
What can I conclude in order to help you?
If you can, go to Oxbridge. If you can't, i advise to bear in mind my rankings.
I will come back probably on friday on this site. Until this date
do not hesitate to ask questions, i will try to answer them.
yours truly."
This effectively amounts to what we have just said. The cost is the only other factor to take into consideration.
The BCL is generally regarded as being the top of the three, but this is of particular importance if you plan to practice at the Bar. If you are not then, in all fairness, it makes little difference. For most graduate courses, from what I've heard, as long as you're accepted and you're competent you'll move up the career ladder.
If you can actually make it to a top set then it may make a difference, but only at the start of your career. After that it will be of little significance.
---
Everyone I've spoken to on the LLM at LSE are loving it. That's anecdotal but I don't think it's a waste of time. Regardless of what Lawz says, having a masters can definitely affect your job prospects. As he problably knows there are some chambers where there are virtually no members at all who do not have a postgraduate qualification. As for international firms: LSE has a good reputation with those in general.
"Hello,
I work in the HR department of a major law firm in London and I would like to give some useful informations in order to choose the right LLM.
When I recruit a young graduate I must choose in fixed lists (nearly the same lots of firms):
International commercial and business law: LSE, UCL, Aberdeen, Durham, kCL.
International tax law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Aberdeen
Commercial law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Edinburgh, Aberdeen/
European law: Durham, Birmingham, LSE, Aberdeen, Edinburgh.
Of course, Oxford and Cambridge are the best universities.
However, when you will make a decision you should bear in mind this ranking.
Yours faithfully...
Hi,
in order to give more accurate informations I will describe the methodology and aswer to your questions.
...
Why these Uni in my rankings?
About Oxford and Cambridge: If you have already a LLB from these universities, it might interesting to undertake a LLM elsewhere (but absolutely not necessary).
If you come from a foreign country, well, it is the "top" if you are accepted at Oxbrige. In a word, do not hesitate.
I always prefer a graduate from a foreign country which has already a specialism in his first degree (for instance a LLB, a JD, or a French maitrise in European law) ans Mjur from Oxford for instance than other candidates.
However, if you are not accepted at Oxbridge, If will comment my rankings it should help you:
LSE: An incredible international networks. Lots of very good links with big firms (with my firm too).
Aberdeen: I really do not understand the Guardian or the times...this university is strongly established in the city. A very good fame in oil and gas law as well as international commercial law. In the department of energy of my firm they all come from Aberdeen.
UCL and KCL: A very good choice but internationally thet are less known than LSE.
Edinburgh: An amazing university. LLM are considered as very good especially in commercial law. Personnally I appreciate this university.
Durham: as a graduate from the MBA of Durham I love university. The department is one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. Furthermore the department of law is well considered especially in European legal studies and international trade and commercial law.
What can I conclude in order to help you?
If you can, go to Oxbridge. If you can't, i advise to bear in mind my rankings.
I will come back probably on friday on this site. Until this date
do not hesitate to ask questions, i will try to answer them.
yours truly."
This effectively amounts to what we have just said. The cost is the only other factor to take into consideration.
Hughski -
Thanks for the comments; the more viewpoints the better. For me, even if the Cambridge LLM is more highly regarded than LSE's, I still think I would have chosen LSE. I love London, having spent a semester there in law school, and want desperately to get back. Took a few trips to Cambridge while in London (I know a fellow at Peterhouse) and enjoyed it, but I much prefer the vibrancy of the city. If it were a question of job prospects I would have headed to Georgetown - great alumni network, great program in WTO and international trade law, internship opportunities at World Bank, ICC, DOC, etc. As an American already admitted to practice in the US, however, I am more interested in the LLM as an experience than as a credential enhancer, though the latter is an attractive feature.
As for the money; it is a lot to spend, but I was lucky enough to get my undergrad and first year of law school paid for, so I just look at the LLM expense as if I had to pay for law school in full. With US student loan interest rates so low, my financial burden going forward is not too bad. Bottom line, however, is that I want to go back to school, and I would rather do that in London than anywhere else.
Thanks for the comments; the more viewpoints the better. For me, even if the Cambridge LLM is more highly regarded than LSE's, I still think I would have chosen LSE. I love London, having spent a semester there in law school, and want desperately to get back. Took a few trips to Cambridge while in London (I know a fellow at Peterhouse) and enjoyed it, but I much prefer the vibrancy of the city. If it were a question of job prospects I would have headed to Georgetown - great alumni network, great program in WTO and international trade law, internship opportunities at World Bank, ICC, DOC, etc. As an American already admitted to practice in the US, however, I am more interested in the LLM as an experience than as a credential enhancer, though the latter is an attractive feature.
As for the money; it is a lot to spend, but I was lucky enough to get my undergrad and first year of law school paid for, so I just look at the LLM expense as if I had to pay for law school in full. With US student loan interest rates so low, my financial burden going forward is not too bad. Bottom line, however, is that I want to go back to school, and I would rather do that in London than anywhere else.
freich
Assuming that I was accepted to these programs, I think I would prefer Cambridge, simply because I love the town.
Does anyone know how selective Cambridge is (I imagine that gaining admission into the LL.M. is quite fierce)? In the US, schools often let applicants know how many applications were received the year prior, and the number of available seats in the class for that year.
Would the fact that I already have an LL.M. from a top international law program in the US help, in terms of gaining admission?
Does anyone know how selective Cambridge is (I imagine that gaining admission into the LL.M. is quite fierce)? In the US, schools often let applicants know how many applications were received the year prior, and the number of available seats in the class for that year.
Would the fact that I already have an LL.M. from a top international law program in the US help, in terms of gaining admission?
You LIKE cambridge? Its DEAD .. nothing outside of the uni ... Oxford is FAR better
Elpo
Lawz, are your assessments of the relative merits of the schools discussed altered if, like me and I assume freich, the goal is not to be a barrister or secure a solicitor training contract, but to be hired as a US attorney in a foreign office?
Thanks
Thanks
The US firms who hire over here (or hire graduates at least) tend to follow the approach of most UK firms. If you are a current lawyer in the US, and want to work over here without the TC, then I would imagine the LLM will come second to your professional experience. Further - I am not too certain about the conversion process... you'd have to check up on that.
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