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Milli
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#17241
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#17241
(Original post by Juicy Fruit)
Because it's a weak line of argument. 'Khumur' can mean many things, not just a head-covering as is claimed in that article.

I'm Agent Z by the way, you may remember me from that headscarf thread a few weeks ago.
Oh right i remember you.

I've just seen your profile. There's no point in wearing the headscarf if the neck shows If you have recently started wearing the hijab then yeah...wearing a bandana would be a good way to start.

Let me introduce myself. I'm Milli 'Ayesha' Norman. 17. Mixed race. Muslim. Study in the UK. And yourself?
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Juicy Fruit
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#17242
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#17242
(Original post by Milli)
Oh right i remember you.

I've just seen your profile. There's no point in wearing the headscarf if the neck shows If you have recently started wearing the hijab then yeah...wearing a bandana would be a good way to start.

Let me introduce myself. I'm Milli 'Ayesha' Norman. 17. Mixed race. Muslim. Study in the UK. And yourself?
Actually, I've been wearing it for almost 4 years, and can decide for myself what the point of wearing a headscarf is. It intrigues me when certain Muslims look at mohajabaat and claim 'Oh, her clothes are too tight, what's the point in her wearing a headscarf?' etc. Surely her wearing the headscarf at all is a good thing, especially since most women in this country aren't, which actually leads me to believe, upon examining the text of the Quraan, that it's not necessary in this country anyway.

And I've come to the conclusion that the neck can be shown by looking at the Quraan and realising that it lacks specifics regarding the need for the head to be covered, and I'm pretty sure that in a country where men can freely obtain imagery of women wearing nothing at all, and sex is extremely available, me showing my neck is hardly a matter for concern.

EDIT: I'm Zara. 19. Half Iraqi and half Irish (therefore mixed race too) and also live and study in the UK (since I was born here).
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rename
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#17243
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#17243
Salaam sisters :wavey: ... how're you?
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#17244
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#17244
lol .. no ones on when i'm here ... :marchmell
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doodle
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#17245
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#17245
(Original post by rename)
lol .. no ones on when i'm here ... :marchmell
I'm here
Not that u know who I am though..:p:
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mizfissy815
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#17246
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#17246
Assalaamu Alaikum Hafsah! Long time no see! How's things going?
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randomuser#6
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#17247
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#17247
wahay self proclaimed sheikhs, one reason why I wouldn't make my own judgements on what is wrong and right in islam, because for the first point, I am not a scholar of islam, and islam is deep and requires to be studied like any other subject, i cannot attempt to do heart surgery without going through medical school.
Neither can you attempt to say right or wrong in islam if you haven't studied it thoroughly, what is required is a council of islamic scholars of the different schools of thought all working with each other and giving us the answers, so we do not draw our own assumed and thought up conclusions.
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Juicy Fruit
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#17248
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#17248
(Original post by Phoenix CG)
wahay self proclaimed sheikhs, one reason why I wouldn't make my own judgements on what is wrong and right in islam, because for the first point, I am not a scholar of islam, and islam is deep and requires to be studied like any other subject, i cannot attempt to do heart surgery without going through medical school.
Neither can you attempt to say right or wrong in islam if you haven't studied it thoroughly, what is required is a council of islamic scholars of the different schools of thought all working with each other and giving us the answers, so we do not draw our own assumed and thought up conclusions.
Oh, forgive me for attempting to use the brain God has given me.
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Dimez
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#17249
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#17249
I think it'd be fair to use our own intellect that God most graciously bestowed upon us to voice our opinions and whatnot, but when we start to make our own rulings with our, admittedly limited, knowledge of Islam is when we encroach dangerous territory.

In a nutshell, voicing opinions there's nothing wrong with but insitigating our own laws without thorough insightful knowledge of the topic in question can prove rather perilous.
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mizfissy815
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#17250
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#17250
(Original post by Juicy Fruit)
Because it's a weak line of argument. 'Khumur' can mean many things, not just a head-covering as is claimed in that article.

I'm Agent Z by the way, you may remember me from that headscarf thread a few weeks ago.
Such as? I have yet to hear another way to define the word 'Khimar' after any other possible meaning has been abolished by being put in that context.

Actually, I've been wearing it for almost 4 years, and can decide for myself what the point of wearing a headscarf is. It intrigues me when certain Muslims look at mohajabaat and claim 'Oh, her clothes are too tight, what's the point in her wearing a headscarf?' etc. Surely her wearing the headscarf at all is a good thing, especially since most women in this country aren't
,
Why does it matter what most women in UK do? This has absolutely nothing to do with other people. In the end of the day, those peoples opinion means absolutely nothing; Allah(Swt) is the Final and only Judge. Our final fate isn’t going to be decided compared to others…so that hardly matters. The headscarf is only a part of the hijab. Hijab is basically modesty and that includes behavior. One can wear the headscarf without classifying as a ‘muhajaba’, but the converse isn’t possible.
Wearing tight clothes does negate the point of the headscarf.

which actually leads me to believe, upon examining the text of the Quraan, that it's not necessary in this country anyway.
This is a first...
Since when does the Quraan apply to some people and not to others? Do you honestly think that some of the rules or commandments of the Quraan apply to some Muslims and not others?

And I've come to the conclusion that the neck can be shown by looking at the Quraan and realising that it lacks specifics regarding the need for the head to be covered
That's where the Ahadeeth and Sunnah come to play. Before I continue...Do you believe in their authenticity?

and I'm pretty sure that in a country where men can freely obtain imagery of women wearing nothing at all, and sex is extremely available, me showing my neck is hardly a matter for concern.
uummm...So? What other people do really shouldn't determine anything. If you were living in a more conservative society...would it be unacceptable for you to show your neck then?

Since everyone is introducing themselves, I should too.
My name is Muhiba and I’m 17…I don’t live in the UK but InshAllah if all goes well, I’ll be heading that way soon!
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filastini
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#17251
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#17251
(Original post by mizfissy815)
Why does it matter what most women in UK do? This has absolutely nothing to do with other people. In the end of the day, those peoples opinion means absolutely nothing; Allah(Swt) is the Final and only Judge. Our final fate isn’t going to be decided compared to others…so that hardly matters. The headscarf is only a part of the hijab. Hijab is basically modesty and that includes behavior. One can wear the headscarf without classifying as a ‘muhajaba’, but the converse isn’t possible.
Wearing tight clothes does negate the point of the headscarf.


This is a first...
Since when does the Quraan apply to some people and not to others? Do you honestly think that some of the rules or commandments of the Quraan apply to some Muslims and not others?
Totally agree.

The bold more or less sums it up and, you're still a Muslim wherever you may go.
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~style
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#17252
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#17252
(Original post by mizfissy815)
That's where the Ahadeeth and Sunnah come to play. Before I continue...Do you believe in their authenticity?

Since everyone is introducing themselves, I should too.
My name is Muhiba and I’m 17…I don’t live in the UK but InshAllah if all goes well, I’ll be heading that way soon!
Does it really matter if you believe in their authenticity or not? Since the Quran does command you to follow them and Allah does say he will protect both, and hence the authenticity!

Alhamdulilah I am in this country but I really do suggest you don't come here sister, unless you have a goal, or already coming form a non-muslim country lol.

And instead of introducing myself I guess I can just paste this link:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...62#post5108662
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The Green Manalishi
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#17253
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#17253
(Original post by mizfissy815)
Why does it matter what most women in UK do? This has absolutely nothing to do with other people. In the end of the day, those peoples opinion means absolutely nothing; Allah(Swt) is the Final and only Judge.
This is a first...
Since when does the Quraan apply to some people and not to others? Do you honestly think that some of the rules or commandments of the Quraan apply to some Muslims and not others?
Assalamu Alaikum Muhiba and everyone,
Another great post, commendations. I agree wholeheartedly to that bit.

Also once i was listening to a youth lecture by Mufti Ismail Menk in Botswana and he was telling us that someone (I think from the uni in Cairo) had been a bit namby-pamby about the French headscarf ban. Mufti Menkh was obviously against it and all, and he was against that man not fully siding with them on the issue for fear of french retribution i think, so i mean... This is France, same difference as the UK in terms of 'conservative culture' so same rules apply.

This is a set of Tafseer by Mufti Menk, you can listen to a small extract, it was nice to hear such an accent again. Reminded me of a southern African accent It also has a small blurb on his qualifications, if anyone was wondering.
http://simplyislam.co.uk/iteminfo.asp?item=56820

http://simplyislam.co.uk/iteminfo.asp?item=56660
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The Green Manalishi
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#17254
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#17254
(Original post by Muhammad Abuzaid)
Does it really matter if you believe in their authenticity or not? Since the Quran does command you to follow them and Allah does say he will protect both, and hence the authenticity!

Alhamdulilah I am in this country but I really do suggest you don't come here sister, unless you have a goal, or already coming form a non-muslim country lol.

And instead of introducing myself I guess I can just paste this link:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...62#post5108662
Assalamu Alaikum Muhammed,
My name's Rashid, i live in Sri Lanka and I'm 18. I'm in uni studying management accounting and hoping to start LLB also in Sept
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Milli
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#17255
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#17255
(Original post by Juicy Fruit)
Actually, I've been wearing it for almost 4 years, and can decide for myself what the point of wearing a headscarf is. It intrigues me when certain Muslims look at mohajabaat and claim 'Oh, her clothes are too tight, what's the point in her wearing a headscarf?' etc. Surely her wearing the headscarf at all is a good thing, especially since most women in this country aren't, which actually leads me to believe, upon examining the text of the Quraan, that it's not necessary in this country anyway.

And I've come to the conclusion that the neck can be shown by looking at the Quraan and realising that it lacks specifics regarding the need for the head to be covered, and I'm pretty sure that in a country where men can freely obtain imagery of women wearing nothing at all, and sex is extremely available, me showing my neck is hardly a matter for concern.

EDIT: I'm Zara. 19. Half Iraqi and half Irish (therefore mixed race too) and also live and study in the UK (since I was born here).
I really can't be bothered to argue with you. So here are the links:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE
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Juicy Fruit
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#17256
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#17256
I knew posting in this thread would be a bad idea, but I'd like to clear up a few points that have been raised.

(Original post by mizfissy815)
Such as? I have yet to hear another way to define the word 'Khimar' after any other possible meaning has been abolished by being put in that context.
'Khimar' comes from the word 'khamr' meaning 'to cover'. Since that's what all clothes are designed to do, it doesn't really mean anything in that context.

(Original post by mizfissy815)
Why does it matter what most women in UK do? This has absolutely nothing to do with other people. In the end of the day, those peoples opinion means absolutely nothing; Allah(Swt) is the Final and only Judge. Our final fate isn’t going to be decided compared to others…so that hardly matters. The headscarf is only a part of the hijab. Hijab is basically modesty and that includes behavior. One can wear the headscarf without classifying as a ‘muhajaba’, but the converse isn’t possible.
Wearing tight clothes does negate the point of the headscarf.
It matters, not because of their opinions, but because of what the Quraan says:

(Original post by Yusuf Ali's interpretation)
24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof
(Original post by M. Picktall's interpretation)
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent
(Original post by M. Asad's interpretation)
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof
In Asad's interpretation he includes a footnote at the end of this sentence:

My interpolation of the word "decently" reflects the interpretation of the phrase illa ma zahara minha by several of the earliest Islamic scholars, and particularly by Al-Qiffal (quoted by Razi) as "that which a human being may openly show in accordance with prevailing custom (al-adah al-jariyah)". Although the traditional exponents of Islamic Law have for centuries been inclined to restrict the definition of "what may [decently] be apparent" to a woman’s face, hands and feet - and sometimes even less than that - we may safely assume that the meaning off illa ma zahara minha is much wider, and that the deliberate vagueness of this phrase is meant to allow for all the time-bound changes that are necessary for man’s moral and social growth. The pivotal clause in the above injunction is the demand, addressed in identical terms to men as well as to women, to "lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity": and this determines the extent of what, at any given time, may legitimately - i.e., in consonance with the Quranic principles of social morality - be considered "decent" or "indecent" in a person’s outward appearance.
Asad continues in his translation to state that:

24:31 ...Hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms.
But his translation of the word 'khimar' into 'head-covering' is not necessarily the only meaning of 'khimar', and in his footnote outlined above he even concedes that:

Although the traditional exponents of Islamic Law have for centuries been inclined to restrict the definition of "what may [decently] be apparent" to a woman’s face, hands and feet - and sometimes even less than that - we may safely assume that the meaning off illa ma zahara minha is much wider, and that the deliberate vagueness of this phrase is meant to allow for all the time-bound changes that are necessary for man’s moral and social growth
(Original post by mizfissy815)
This is a first...
Since when does the Quraan apply to some people and not to others? Do you honestly think that some of the rules or commandments of the Quraan apply to some Muslims and not others?
I'm not advocating that the Quraan applies to some and not others, read the above extractions from three different interpretations of the Quraan and hopefully you'll understand what I'm talking about.

(Original post by mizfissy815)
That's where the Ahadeeth and Sunnah come to play. Before I continue...Do you believe in their authenticity?
I believe in the authenticity of some, but I am wary of them.

(Original post by mizfissy815)
uummm...So? What other people do really shouldn't determine anything. If you were living in a more conservative society...would it be unacceptable for you to show your neck then?
Yes, precisely. And I've come to that conclusion from the words of the Quraan itself.
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Juicy Fruit
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#17257
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#17257
(Original post by Milli)
I really can't be bothered to argue with you.
That's a shame. I was hoping to find someone who could counter my arguments regarding this matter. Thanks for the links anyway.
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Milli
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#17258
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#17258
(Original post by Juicy Fruit)
That's a shame. I was hoping to find someone who could counter my arguments regarding this matter. Thanks for the links anyway.
I'm aware that Mizfissy knows more about this matter than i do. I've only just recently started wearing the headscarf myself and would never take it off. If you are still 'unmoved' after reading the links i've given you...then i can't think of anything else that could change your mind. I just hope you could just see what the point of the hijab is...rather than viewing it as a piece of material used to cover the hair.
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Juicy Fruit
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#17259
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#17259
(Original post by Milli)
I'm aware that Mizfissy knows more about this matter than i do. I've only just recently started wearing the headscarf myself and would never take it off. If you are still 'unmoved' after reading the links i've given you...then i can't think of anything else that could change your mind. I just hope you could just see what the point of the hijab is...rather than viewing it as a piece of material used to cover the head.
That's what I used to think when I first started wearing it, and for all the time I've been wearing it up until a couple of months ago. That was until I began to realise how vague the Quraan is about it, and that wearing a headscarf hasn't stopped men from being perverts. All it seems to do is make me sweat to death in hot weather - seemingly needlessly - in a society where so many women are wearing next to nothing anyway.

I do see what the 'point' of it is, but it doesn't achieve that 'point'. The only thing that can achieve it is if men lower their gaze as they're commanded to in the Quraan, before any mention is made of what women should or shouldn't be wearing. Allow me to refer you to my first post in this thread from yesterday, where I went into some detail about this matter. Also read my post in response to Miss Fizzy, and this one I wrote regarding the Islamic rulings on fornication - it's also relevant here, and should demonstrate my understanding of the hijaab as more than a 'piece of cloth'. That doesn't mean that the hijaab = headscarf though.
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A Y A Z
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#17260
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#17260
As-salam alikum!
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