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    (Original post by Nisherz187)
    Hinduism doesn't have a present Guru as such, so there is no such thing.

    We follow scriptures in the belief that that is what is laid down and conveyed by God.

    How much weight a person gives to those scriptures is dependant on the individual, their beliefs and their faith.
    OK i do not mean this offensively to any Hindus, if it does i ask for your forgiveness. but to be honest what the hell is the caste system then? i dont see how that is religious but it is involved in the hindu religion. this is the only point i dislike about hinduism. To be honest, i dont care what castes people belong to, it doesnt mean because you are a higher caste you are a better person. when i have heard some priests say caste is important etc that is bull**** because God sees us all equally not to what our caste is.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    OK i do not mean this offensively to any Hindus, if it does i ask for your forgiveness. but to be honest what the hell is the caste system then? i dont see how that is religious but it is involved in the hindu religion. this is the only point i dislike about hinduism. To be honest, i dont care what castes people belong to, it doesnt mean because you are a higher caste you are a better person. when i have heard some priests say caste is important etc that is bull**** because God sees us all equally not to what our caste is.
    Don't worry, I know you don't mean it offensively.

    The thing is, you're referring to rituals that people carry out. These rituals are not part of any scriptures or anything. Rituals are a form of worship, atonement and dedication to God. They are not compulsary, and depends purely on the believer. God doesn't ask for them as such.

    Rituals, castes etc are part of a "culture" as opposed to "religion".

    The caste system was essentially in existence to distinguish people of different social classes many years ago. People still refer to these castes, though it is for many reasons. Often it is to relate back to ancestral standing, as well as geographic locations etc. It is still used as a basis for arranging marriages etc.

    But like I said, it doesn't belong to Hinduism as it is not religious, it is a cultural thing.
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    (Original post by Nisherz187)
    Which is why I much prefer to follow scriptures than "people" who make claims. There's no guarantee from real or fake.
    I would say you are right there and wrong. Right in the fact you should follow scriptures but wrong in saying there is no guarantee from real or fake.

    now my way to understand a Guru to know if he is right or wrong is firstly does he do what he preaches. as far as the Nirankari Satguru yeah he does do whate he preaches. i cant comment on some Gurus but i do know some that are fake.

    another way to know who is the Satguru is that he never says he is the Satguru, he will always refer himself to 'Das' or a humble being. also the Satguru is the only one that can reveal the 'Knowledge of God or sometimes referred as 'Gyan' or 'Naam'

    Also the scriptures do contain this Gyan but it can only be revealed by the Satguru. It is in the scriptures that God will send a messenger in every age to reveal His Divine Knowledge. So there is a divine messenger, there maybe more than one but we have to search for the True messenger.

    I hope i made it clear, if you have any questions please ask.
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    (Original post by Nisherz187)
    Don't worry, I know you don't mean it offensively.

    The thing is, you're referring to rituals that people carry out. These rituals are not part of any scriptures or anything. Rituals are a form of worship, atonement and dedication to God. They are not compulsary, and depends purely on the believer. God doesn't ask for them as such.

    Rituals, castes etc are part of a "culture" as opposed to "religion".

    The caste system was essentially in existence to distinguish people of different social classes many years ago. People still refer to these castes, though it is for many reasons. Often it is to relate back to ancestral standing, as well as geographic locations etc. It is still used as a basis for arranging marriages etc.

    But like I said, it doesn't belong to Hinduism as it is not religious, it is a cultural thing.
    Yeah i do understand but people do invilved the caste system with religion though.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    I would say you are right there and wrong. Right in the fact you should follow scriptures but wrong in saying there is no guarantee from real or fake.

    now my way to understand a Guru to know if he is right or wrong is firstly does he do what he preaches. as far as the Nirankari Satguru yeah he does do whate he preaches. i cant comment on some Gurus but i do know some that are fake.

    another way to know who is the Satguru is that he never says he is the Satguru, he will always refer himself to 'Das' or a humble being. also the Satguru is the only one that can reveal the 'Knowledge of God or sometimes referred as 'Gyan' or 'Naam'

    Also the scriptures do contain this Gyan but it can only be revealed by the Satguru. It is in the scriptures that God will send a messenger in every age to reveal His Divine Knowledge. So there is a divine messenger, there maybe more than one but we have to search for the True messenger.

    I hope i made it clear, if you have any questions please ask.
    I personally still don't think that that's a guarantee...

    Many may practice what they preach infront of you, but who knows what they are behind closed doors?

    And same for your second point, if only a Satguru can reveal the Knowledge of God, how are we to know whether its true or not? He may just tell us what we want to hear as opposed to what divine knowledge actually is.

    In the Bhagvad Gita, Chapter IV-7, Lord Krishna declares...

    “Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya Glanirbhavathi Bharatha, Abhyukthanam adharmasya Thadathmanam Srujamyaham, Parithranaya Sadhunam Vinashaya cha Dhushkrutham, Dharma samsthapanarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge”

    …which means that whenever and wherever there is a decline of righteousness and rise of evil, the Lord incarnates from time to time to uphold righteousness, to protect the virtuous and to uproot the evil. However, who, where, why and when is not something that is known. There has been speculation about them, but to what extent they are true, God only knows.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    Yeah i do understand but people do invilved the caste system with religion though.
    You can't use an individuals' views to generalise a whole religion.
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    Ello ello :wavey:
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    if we ask our elders about caste, i think in any lingo its jath-path, they say it exists, becauase religion exists! meanien that caste and relgion have the same word in our cultures and tradition. Yes the sikh gurus as with nearly al religious icons, caste was abonished, but people carried it forward as another word for religion then in our histories we enveloped into tradition again!!

    same with all traditions right down to wheter we should have meat or not, drink alcohol or not, at the end of the day, it comes down to a deicsion an individual makes, and one that must be kept and can be passed on, but whether anyone deploys that belief as they own is another matter.....

    going onto the so-called gurus, may i ask how can we believe any human who says they are the work of God as the son or messenger of God? surely what has b een left for us in our holy scriptures is all we need to go forth and seek our own learned path? the buddha didnt leave much in scriptures yet he read utmost!! why was that? solely cos they came to show us, not lead us, therefore either we can see, or we dont believe.....
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    Hi guys, I'm Gujarati living in the South West . I really want to learn Hindi. A lot of words are shared between Gujarati and Hindi so I can understand quite a lot. Anyone fluent in Hindi and wouldn't mind teaching me in MSN? :five:

    Phir milenge.
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    (Original post by desi-guru)
    going onto the so-called gurus, may i ask how can we believe any human who says they are the work of God as the son or messenger of God? surely what has b een left for us in our holy scriptures is all we need to go forth and seek our own learned path? the buddha didnt leave much in scriptures yet he read utmost!! why was that? solely cos they came to show us, not lead us, therefore either we can see, or we dont believe.....
    Yeah but how many of us have read this holy scriptures and put them into our daily lives? so God blesses us with Satguru to show us how we can practice it in daily lives.

    As to what Nisha said before. only the Satguru can give this Divine Knowledge and the thing is it is in the scriptures but we tend not to see it. so therefore we need a satguru. it be wrong for me to say only the Guru i believe in is right but i am sure there are more enlightened people on this earth!!! the thing is we have to search for the Satguru not the other way round. like i have recieved this divine knowledge and i see it in all the scriptures before i was blind to it, i didnt understand what things meant but now i understand. but it takes alot of understanding.

    Behind closed doors then how do we know what other Messengers did? then you could say all the Hindu Satgurus(Hindus may call them Gods) Lird Christ. Prphet Mohammed, The 10 Sikh Gurus how do we know what they were like behind closed doors. the thing is the Satguru is the same everywhere he is.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    Yeah but how many of us have read this holy scriptures and put them into our daily lives? so God blesses us with Satguru to show us how we can practice it in daily lives.

    As to what Nisha said before. only the Satguru can give this Divine Knowledge and the thing is it is in the scriptures but we tend not to see it. so therefore we need a satguru. it be wrong for me to say only the Guru i believe in is right but i am sure there are more enlightened people on this earth!!! the thing is we have to search for the Satguru not the other way round. like i have recieved this divine knowledge and i see it in all the scriptures before i was blind to it, i didnt understand what things meant but now i understand. but it takes alot of understanding.

    Behind closed doors then how do we know what other Messengers did? then you could say all the Hindu Satgurus(Hindus may call them Gods) Lird Christ. Prphet Mohammed, The 10 Sikh Gurus how do we know what they were like behind closed doors. the thing is the Satguru is the same everywhere he is.
    Like I said holy scriptures do not lay down the "law" on religion... they are there to teach, to make you aware and to provide you with guidance... it's impossible to put everything into your daily life.

    "Satguru" means "teacher of truth"...he exist to teach us, make us aware and to explain to us what Divine Knowledge is. He exists to show us the path to self-realisation. He doesn't see anything that the common man doesn't, he is only more aware of such knowledge... and I don't think it is necessary for a common man to have a "teacher" as such... God just wants a pure heart. Having a high and vast knowledge of religion doesn't prevent someone from gaining Moksha.

    At the end of the day, we don't know what anyone does behind closed doors, which is why everything boils down to faith and belief.
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    Exactly!!! Its your own faith and belief. it does take time to realise yourself. it is hard and i also believe some enlightened souls also have spiritual powers and they can do things that common man cannot do. i think it is necessary for us to have a Satguru because he is a living example and you learn from that. Although God wants us to have a pure heart and if the common man didnt need a Satguru then at the end of the day what is the point of even reading scriptures, it should be common sense. at the end of the day whoever wrote the scriptures were Satgurus in their time, so that means we dont need scriptures right?
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    Exactly!!! Its your own faith and belief. it does take time to realise yourself. it is hard and i also believe some enlightened souls also have spiritual powers and they can do things that common man cannot do. i think it is necessary for us to have a Satguru because he is a living example and you learn from that. Although God wants us to have a pure heart and if the common man didnt need a Satguru then at the end of the day what is the point of even reading scriptures, it should be common sense. at the end of the day whoever wrote the scriptures were Satgurus in their time, so that means we dont need scriptures right?
    Scriptures and Satgurus are two different things. For those who have no knowledge of such scriptures, i.e; cannot read or understand them, they may need a Satguru to teach and guide them, though I don't think its a necessity.

    You don't need to know anything about scriptures or the likes. Common sense is enough... a lot of it also lies in other factors, such as upbringing etc, as a lot of knowledge is passed down generations.

    A pure heart really is all God expects from his devotees. Chanting God's name with a pure heart is more valuable than a mind which is full of unimplemented knowledge.

    What spiritual powers do Satgurus have that a common man doesn't?
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    That's true.
    In my view, Scriptures help you to gain theoritical knowledge about the religion and practices.
    They help to certain extent for the devotees to practise and implement but to gain perfection there is a need for someone and that is the "Satguru"

    Satguru is the one who practised and implemented them in his life and that doesn't end there. He also need to share the enlightenment that he had to the people to overcome the materialistic darkness and find the way to enligtenment.

    No one is a born Satguru. That depends on the star they are born and their quest to do something in life which will bring them to that position to become a Satguru.

    It's not that you are under a Satguru brings you purity. Only 1 out of 5 or 10 who is having the real quest for knowledge and enlightenment who is going to really practise and implement what his guru says gains purity in his mind and heart.

    If you have heard the history of Eklavya in Mahabharata. He was rejected by Drona(guru) as he is not from a Royal family but a tribe. That's just his desire to learn archery he didn't give up as soon as his guru rejected him. I would strongly recommend to read his wonderful story below :http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/mahabharata6.html

    All this discussion above is not concerned to one particular religion but the same for all religions.
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    Yeah a pure heart is maybe what God needs but He also needs you to surrender yourself unto Him. Without surrendering yourself, there is no point of chanting His name. In my opinion the whole world needs a Satguru, the reason is without the Satguru the Divine Knowledge cannot be given to man.
    Common sense is not enough Nisha and upbringing doesn't mean alot when it comes to realising God. The Satguru is the only one that holds the key to the Knowledge of God. in the scriptures it is said that Guru is essential. in essence the Guru Granth Sahib is the Satguru of the Sikhs. So they rely on the Satguru, so they can realise the God. In the Adi Granth-Page 79
    The lineage of True Master
    Continues in succession
    Through ages always,
    Age to age succession of the True Master continues,
    Who envisioned the True knowledge
    From the teacher.

    In the Gita-Chapter 4-2
    Thus transmitted in regular succession
    The royal sages knew it.

    In the Rig Veda-8.58.2
    See Unity in Diversity
    Behold one divine form
    appearing in multi forms.

    All these above link to one thing and that is the Satguru. I can talk on the Nirankari Mission we have people from all types of races, religious backgrounds and caste and that is unity in diversity!

    Spiritual powers is one thing i have personally seen to an extent. common man cannot attain these powers unless they have a pure heart and realised God. In the past we seen the miracles of Jesusand other Satgurus. I have only seen exorcisms, which again common man would not be able to do but many Nirankari followers have seen other miracles that Babaji has performed.

    Just like Abhinaya said before this is a discussion about all religions and beliefs and i have implemented my beliefs in where i can.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    Yeah a pure heart is maybe what God needs but He also needs you to surrender yourself unto Him. Without surrendering yourself, there is no point of chanting His name. In my opinion the whole world needs a Satguru, the reason is without the Satguru the Divine Knowledge cannot be given to man.
    Common sense is not enough Nisha and upbringing doesn't mean alot when it comes to realising God. The Satguru is the only one that holds the key to the Knowledge of God. in the scriptures it is said that Guru is essential. in essence the Guru Granth Sahib is the Satguru of the Sikhs. So they rely on the Satguru, so they can realise the God. In the Adi Granth-Page 79
    The lineage of True Master
    Continues in succession
    Through ages always,
    Age to age succession of the True Master continues,
    Who envisioned the True knowledge
    From the teacher.

    In the Gita-Chapter 4-2
    Thus transmitted in regular succession
    The royal sages knew it.

    In the Rig Veda-8.58.2
    See Unity in Diversity
    Behold one divine form
    appearing in multi forms.

    All these above link to one thing and that is the Satguru. I can talk on the Nirankari Mission we have people from all types of races, religious backgrounds and caste and that is unity in diversity!

    Spiritual powers is one thing i have personally seen to an extent. common man cannot attain these powers unless they have a pure heart and realised God. In the past we seen the miracles of Jesusand other Satgurus. I have only seen exorcisms, which again common man would not be able to do but many Nirankari followers have seen other miracles that Babaji has performed.

    Just like Abhinaya said before this is a discussion about all religions and beliefs and i have implemented my beliefs in where i can.
    Hahaha... I am completely OK with what you say Rahul

    The Western theory is completely different from our way of thinking. Many of them say tht we are just fools to say all this about religion.
    For ex: I had all the discussions with
    The Brazilians : they have the similar way of thinking like us. They were very curious to know and what I was speaking was very interesting for them.
    The French : they said that tht's all scrap and that I'm in a sect. That's a pity that they can't make out the difference between the religion and a sect. For them guru means "a sect". They just neglected saying Indians are under the influence of sects.

    I had also many friends in France arguing these days that marraige is just bull ****, a contract and what's wrong if we stay together without marrying and what difference does it make. I'm totally shocked with their arguments. lol ! I don't want to comment on those coz things good for you can be surely rejected by others. Everyone has their own style of living.

    Anyways, I bought this topic coz you were saying whole world needs a satguru which can be a miracle if it can happen coz now a days lots of people are gettin attracted towards atheism and stuff interesting rather than religion. They also have a reason after seeing the religious contries in the middle east and Asia which are being ruined by religious wars. Isreal and Palestine or India and Pakistan. Maybe they are showing the land as a reason for war but the religious domination is definetely acting there.
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    Religion is definately big in India. i never tried to stay attached to materialistic things and only the Satguru in my opinion can break that bond of materialism. The thing is the Satguru wont come to you, your quest to know the truth will bring you to the Satguru in my opinion.

    Yeah Abhi you are definately right man is too attached to materialism hence makes Atheism more attractive. As religion always says materialistic things are all a gift from God and can be taken away from us at any time, i think the materialistic man cannot come to terms with this. By the way the french are surprising, i have a few french friends here and they are deeply religious and they dislike the idea of atheism, while some are definately atheists and have that view that having a Guru is wrong or is a sect.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    Yeah a pure heart is maybe what God needs but He also needs you to surrender yourself unto Him. Without surrendering yourself, there is no point of chanting His name. In my opinion the whole world needs a Satguru, the reason is without the Satguru the Divine Knowledge cannot be given to man.
    Common sense is not enough Nisha and upbringing doesn't mean alot when it comes to realising God. The Satguru is the only one that holds the key to the Knowledge of God. in the scriptures it is said that Guru is essential. in essence the Guru Granth Sahib is the Satguru of the Sikhs. So they rely on the Satguru, so they can realise the God. In the Adi Granth-Page 79
    The lineage of True Master
    Continues in succession
    Through ages always,
    Age to age succession of the True Master continues,
    Who envisioned the True knowledge
    From the teacher.

    In the Gita-Chapter 4-2
    Thus transmitted in regular succession
    The royal sages knew it.

    In the Rig Veda-8.58.2
    See Unity in Diversity
    Behold one divine form
    appearing in multi forms.

    All these above link to one thing and that is the Satguru. I can talk on the Nirankari Mission we have people from all types of races, religious backgrounds and caste and that is unity in diversity!

    Spiritual powers is one thing i have personally seen to an extent. common man cannot attain these powers unless they have a pure heart and realised God. In the past we seen the miracles of Jesusand other Satgurus. I have only seen exorcisms, which again common man would not be able to do but many Nirankari followers have seen other miracles that Babaji has performed.

    Just like Abhinaya said before this is a discussion about all religions and beliefs and i have implemented my beliefs in where i can.
    Surrender is not a word which is commonly used for positive actions... besides, my beliefs tell me that we don't need to "surrender" to God in any form... God resides within us, we just need to realise it.

    No, we don't need a Satguru... its personal preference I guess. My family is very religious, and my dad in particular has brought me up and taught me about religion and culture just as much, if not more, than a Satguru would have. That's why I say knowledge is passed down from generations and upbringing has a lot to do with it. If you haven't been brought up that way, you wouldn't understand, its as simple as that. My realisation has come from what I have been taught from my childhood up until now.

    I come from a Brahmin Pundit family...a family of Hindu priests, and I can say from experience that Satgurus do not have access to any kind of "special" knowledge that the "common man" doesn't. We are all the same. Equal. The Satguru is nothing but the common man who has implemented the majority of God's teachings into his life and devoted time to teach others. Nothing more, nothing less.

    By the way, your quote from the Bhagavad Gita does not refer to Satgurus... it refers to the reincarnation of Lord Krishna. And your quote from the Rig Veda does not refer to Satgurus at all.
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    (Original post by Nisherz187)
    Surrender is not a word which is commonly used for positive actions... besides, my beliefs tell me that we don't need to "surrender" to God in any form... God resides within us, we just need to realise it.

    No, we don't need a Satguru... its personal preference I guess. My family is very religious, and my dad in particular has brought me up and taught me about religion and culture just as much, if not more, than a Satguru would have. That's why I say knowledge is passed down from generations and upbringing has a lot to do with it. If you haven't been brought up that way, you wouldn't understand, its as simple as that. My realisation has come from what I have been taught from my childhood up until now.

    I come from a Brahmin Pundit family...a family of Hindu priests, and I can say from experience that Satgurus do not have access to any kind of "special" knowledge that the "common man" doesn't. We are all the same. Equal. The Satguru is nothing but the common man who has implemented the majority of God's teachings into his life and devoted time to teach others. Nothing more, nothing less.

    By the way, your quote from the Bhagavad Gita does not refer to Satgurus... it refers to the reincarnation of Lord Krishna. And your quote from the Rig Veda does not refer to Satgurus at all.
    I dont know whether i personally agree with you, maybe others will. Firstly, surrender to you is not used positively, thats because you havent seen how it is used positively. Well surrendering to God is when you accept that whatever you have is his, like your mind, body and material possession are all his. Yeah self-realisation is God-realisation but when you still think that whatever you have on the earth is yours then obviously you have not realised God.

    If i am honest with you then no one except for the Satguru can show you God. Yeah your parents may talk to you about God but showing you God is something else. That is only what the Satguru can do.

    Yeah satguru was once a common man but the thing is he is the Satguru for a reason. He has realised God and implemented his teachings in his daily life. That is something we all dont do. Do you forgive everyone all the time? Do you love everyone equally? Do you consider those lower than you as your equal? That is something a Satguru does. He is a realised man.

    So the reincarnation of lord Krishna is what then? Wasnt Lord Krishna the Satguru of his time? So therefore the Satguru has been reincarnated through Lord Christ to the present Satguru.

    The Rig Veda quote does refer to Satgurus. One divine form is God. the multi forms are the reincarnation of the Satguru through the ages.

    Maybe you need to see a Satguru to realise how there is a difference. Maybe because i have experienced a Satguru in my life maybe thats why i can say it is different. So in a way i do agree with you Nisha but in my experience i do not agree.
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    (Original post by singh1987)
    I dont know whether i personally agree with you, maybe others will. Firstly, surrender to you is not used positively, thats because you havent seen how it is used positively. Well surrendering to God is when you accept that whatever you have is his, like your mind, body and material possession are all his. Yeah self-realisation is God-realisation but when you still think that whatever you have on the earth is yours then obviously you have not realised God.

    If i am honest with you then no one except for the Satguru can show you God. Yeah your parents may talk to you about God but showing you God is something else. That is only what the Satguru can do.

    Yeah satguru was once a common man but the thing is he is the Satguru for a reason. He has realised God and implemented his teachings in his daily life. That is something we all dont do. Do you forgive everyone all the time? Do you love everyone equally? Do you consider those lower than you as your equal? That is something a Satguru does. He is a realised man.

    So the reincarnation of lord Krishna is what then? Wasnt Lord Krishna the Satguru of his time? So therefore the Satguru has been reincarnated through Lord Christ to the present Satguru.

    The Rig Veda quote does refer to Satgurus. One divine form is God. the multi forms are the reincarnation of the Satguru through the ages.

    Maybe you need to see a Satguru to realise how there is a difference. Maybe because i have experienced a Satguru in my life maybe thats why i can say it is different. So in a way i do agree with you Nisha but in my experience i do not agree.
    I don't think one can "surrender" to God. If you believe everything you are and own belongs to God, then that's the way it is. Surrendering to God refers to sacrificing what you have to lead the life of a true devotee of God... its a term used to indicate a compromise between a common man and God. I can't surrender to God coz I already belong to God, He is my creator. Therefore I don't believe in "surrendering" to Him as such.

    You have got the whole concept of Satgurus, incarnation and reincarnation mixed up, which is why most the things you say don't make sense. They are completely different things. Lord Krishna was not a Satguru. The Rig Veda quote also doesn't refer to the reincarnation of Satgurus either. Satgurus do not reincarnate as Satgurus each birth. The Satguru is nothing but a reformed common man.

    I am talking from experience Rahul. Like I said, I belong to a family of Brahmin priests, and what I say is based on my knowledge and experiences of such things.
 
 
 
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