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Should Oxford lower their offers for state school pupils?
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this- just a quick thought experiment. Sorry if it's been done before.
I was just having a quick mosey through an old OxStu (student newspaper for those not in the know) and notice back on page 9 another story about "Oxford missing state school target" by 20%. In 2007, 53.4% of starting students at Oxford came from State Schools (target of 77.5%).
The article goes on to say the target is unrealistic from Oxford, particularly as state schools produce fewer candidates with the right qualifications at the right level.
So, do you think it would be acceptable for Oxford to bias in favour of state schools? Maybe let state-school candidates in with offers of AAB or ABB? Or perhaps by only asking candidates from independent schools to get the new A* grade?
After all, people who went to an overcrowded mixed ability state school are surely at a disadvantage when compared to those who were taught privately with lots of support in small classrooms of reasonably bright kids?
There would probably have to be some control- as I'm sure inner city comprehensives might create more serious hurdles to achieving 3As than grammar schools and things.
As far as I can see this might be the only way to get enough state school kids into OXford to comply with what the government wants.
I was just having a quick mosey through an old OxStu (student newspaper for those not in the know) and notice back on page 9 another story about "Oxford missing state school target" by 20%. In 2007, 53.4% of starting students at Oxford came from State Schools (target of 77.5%).
The article goes on to say the target is unrealistic from Oxford, particularly as state schools produce fewer candidates with the right qualifications at the right level.
So, do you think it would be acceptable for Oxford to bias in favour of state schools? Maybe let state-school candidates in with offers of AAB or ABB? Or perhaps by only asking candidates from independent schools to get the new A* grade?
After all, people who went to an overcrowded mixed ability state school are surely at a disadvantage when compared to those who were taught privately with lots of support in small classrooms of reasonably bright kids?
There would probably have to be some control- as I'm sure inner city comprehensives might create more serious hurdles to achieving 3As than grammar schools and things.
As far as I can see this might be the only way to get enough state school kids into OXford to comply with what the government wants.
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I think most people would agree that if one is 'good enough' to achieve an offer from Oxford, they should also be 'good enough' to achieve AAA at A-Level. To introduce such a system would be to the detriment of the quality of the university, and I think even the most ardent supporters of higher educational equality would be unable to deny that it seems almost to be pandering to state school pupils, and is certainly not fair.
Deipnosophist123
I think most people would agree that if one is 'good enough' to achieve an offer from Oxford, they should also be 'good enough' to achieve AAA at A-Level. To introduce such a system would be to the detriment of the quality of the university, and I think even the most ardent supporters of higher educational equality would be unable to deny that it seems almost to be pandering to state school pupils, and is certainly not fair.
Well how about if they asked for A*A*A for private school candidates and AAA for state?
No, the offers should be the same for everyone. They should really push every candidate to do their best, regardless of the school they went to.
If your good enough to get in Oxford then your good enough. Its not just about getting three A's, its the passing the interview which is the tricky thing. At the end of the day, if you can't get three A's then Oxford isn't the place for you.
People will cry outrage when a rich person buys his way in but how is this any different? Using your social status as a tool to gain easier entry.
People will cry outrage when a rich person buys his way in but how is this any different? Using your social status as a tool to gain easier entry.
I disagree. The school an applicant went to should not affect his/her's offer. If they did do this, they wouldn't get all of the best students and their reputation would go down. Therefore, Oxbridge wouldn't be as we know it since it would not longer be one of the best universities in the world.
I also think that A-levels should be made harder as it would it reduce the competition for places because it would be harder to get the higher grades and so less and less people would be applying as they wouldn't have the grades to do so. Therefore, it would be less of a "lottery", particularly for those applying for medicine or other competitive courses.
I also think that A-levels should be made harder as it would it reduce the competition for places because it would be harder to get the higher grades and so less and less people would be applying as they wouldn't have the grades to do so. Therefore, it would be less of a "lottery", particularly for those applying for medicine or other competitive courses.
All university offers should be scaled in accordance to school quality.
I don't think either of them show anything useful really. Just because you did well at A-Levels doesn't mean you'll do well at university. You can get through most A-Levels simply by memorising stuff.
The point is that A-Levels are considered to be so easy, that regardless of whether you went to Eton or to a rubbish school, if you can't get AAA, you're not good enough.
But I do think that someone from an Eton is more likely to make Oxford look good than someone from the local comp. Not necessarily academically, but in other ways (such as becoming the next prime minister or something).
The point is that A-Levels are considered to be so easy, that regardless of whether you went to Eton or to a rubbish school, if you can't get AAA, you're not good enough.
But I do think that someone from an Eton is more likely to make Oxford look good than someone from the local comp. Not necessarily academically, but in other ways (such as becoming the next prime minister or something).
(edited 4 years ago)
necessarily benevolent
All university offers should be scaled in accordance to school quality.
I agree, but I think candidates would have to display a high level of aptitude and committment to the subject, which can't always be displayed through A levels.
Though really, the reason Oxford and Cambridge don't offer more places to state school applicants is because private schooled pupils are more likely to apply there. I think the A* grade will put even more off applying to Cambridge.
necessarily benevolent
All university offers should be scaled in accordance to school quality.
That would just be silly. People could just abuse this and go to a s*** school and guarantee that they get an easy offer. Also it wouldn't really benefit those that got low grade offers in the first place because they probably wouldn't be able to cope with the work when they got there.
I don't think they should. The grades you get should reflect your aptitude and determination. I have to admit, people from private schools do have an advantage- they tend to be pushed more, but I still think it should be the same for everyone.
I'm from a state school, and I would feel like I was cheating if I got a lower offer just because of this. And rather offended.
I'm from a state school, and I would feel like I was cheating if I got a lower offer just because of this. And rather offended.
There's a helluva lot more to it than the AAA with Oxbridge, regardless of where they're from. If they can't handled the AAA at A-level, they can't handle an Oxbridge degree.
I go to a state comp (admittedly a good one) and we always send one or two to Oxbridge every year. If you're good enough for Oxbridge you're good enough.
I go to a state comp (admittedly a good one) and we always send one or two to Oxbridge every year. If you're good enough for Oxbridge you're good enough.
It's a tough one. If your parents can afford to send you to an excellent school, ply you with private tuition, and make sure nothing gets in the way of your learning, you're going to have a good chance of top marks. If you go to the local comprehensive, study in poor facilities, have the local chavs setting fire to things, get no extra tuition out of hours, and have to take a part time job on which means you can't study on certain evenings, then I don't think anyone can unequivocally say an AAB student in the latter scenario isn't Oxbridge material while the former is.
If it were up to me, I'd look at things on a case by case basis, perhaps in a similar (but better way) to Durham, where points are scored for those who do so much better than the school's average. At at least two of the Scottish ancients, Glasgow and Edinburgh, preference is given to the locals, and its not unheard of for people from the local school with four Bs at Scottish higher being accepted but an ABB student at A-Level being rejected. It's more of a recognition that some people don't have the luxury of picking a university and going there, and if the A-Level students can afford to come up from England and live away from home, then they sometimes have to take second fiddle to the arguably inferior student who can look no further than their own city. This system hasn't been complained about, so I don't see why a case by case examination at Oxbridge should be either.
If it were up to me, I'd look at things on a case by case basis, perhaps in a similar (but better way) to Durham, where points are scored for those who do so much better than the school's average. At at least two of the Scottish ancients, Glasgow and Edinburgh, preference is given to the locals, and its not unheard of for people from the local school with four Bs at Scottish higher being accepted but an ABB student at A-Level being rejected. It's more of a recognition that some people don't have the luxury of picking a university and going there, and if the A-Level students can afford to come up from England and live away from home, then they sometimes have to take second fiddle to the arguably inferior student who can look no further than their own city. This system hasn't been complained about, so I don't see why a case by case examination at Oxbridge should be either.
My opinion on this has changed recently. For a long time I would have said that everyone should receive the samehowever but now I'm not so sure. It is true to say that acheiving good grades at a top private/ public school is easier than acheiving them at a crappy comprehensive. So I think increased emphasis should be placed on the interview and even introduce entrance exams, maybe someone acheiving AAB is actually just as capable as someone acheiving A*A*A. I think introducing A* requirement will make thinks tough(er) for state school pupils. In a private school everyone's getting A grades, so pupils their are likely to strive to do even better than that, that's not true in a comp.
There is a case for giving lower offers to state school pupils but only after admissions tutors have met these students and deemed them to be just as capable/ intelligent/ deserving.
There is a case for giving lower offers to state school pupils but only after admissions tutors have met these students and deemed them to be just as capable/ intelligent/ deserving.
mf2004
You need a lot more ha just AAA to get in and that's the point. Anyone capable of getting trough the application process with an offer is good enough to get AAA even if they didn't have teachers.
Yet, it is possible - indeed likely - that one could show promise in spite of the stringent spoonfeeding of the A level syllabus, which some just aren't suited to. The point is that in terms of meeting an offer, if the teachers are rubbish then it's undoubtedly more difficult than it would be at a place where the teachers all have PhDs.
I think there may already be a difference between UMS marks-you have to remember there is 20% between the bottom of an A grade and the top so I think these differentials are already taken into account. Cambridge ask for UMS marks and class sizes so they can make an informed decision about someone's performance at A level. This system seems fair to me.
Nope. But it's not like Oxford say 'whoever gets the best grades can get in'. By interview, they assess who they want. It's then up to you to achieve the minimum necessary. You might go as far to say 'if you cannot achieve A at A-level then you don't know enough to do the course' but of course that doesn't take into account unrelated A-levels.
I don't think anyone believes that on average independent school offer-holders have had to struggle as much as some state school offer holders. But we all know the education system is not as clear cut as that.
So an ABB offer for state schools? What about Hills Road? What about grammars? What about places where students routinely do get top grades? Is every school to be independently assessed and have the offer changed accordingly? Why just Oxford? Why not Medicine and Law too? Regardless of whether it's right (which I don't think it is) it's just not practical to implement.
Currently Oxford offer a proportional number of offers to the state schoolers that apply. I don't really think we can set them a higher target than that. The University spends thousands trying to encourage applications, and those that come are fairly treated. But if people don't apply is that really the university's fault?
At the end of the day (as Anne Widdecombe, in slightly different terms said) I, as a state schooler, deserved the right to look every other student from the President of the Union or OUSU down in the eye and say 'I got here on my own merit, and not because someone held the door open for me'. Oxford is a meritocracy, and that's just the way it is.
I don't think anyone believes that on average independent school offer-holders have had to struggle as much as some state school offer holders. But we all know the education system is not as clear cut as that.
So an ABB offer for state schools? What about Hills Road? What about grammars? What about places where students routinely do get top grades? Is every school to be independently assessed and have the offer changed accordingly? Why just Oxford? Why not Medicine and Law too? Regardless of whether it's right (which I don't think it is) it's just not practical to implement.
Currently Oxford offer a proportional number of offers to the state schoolers that apply. I don't really think we can set them a higher target than that. The University spends thousands trying to encourage applications, and those that come are fairly treated. But if people don't apply is that really the university's fault?
At the end of the day (as Anne Widdecombe, in slightly different terms said) I, as a state schooler, deserved the right to look every other student from the President of the Union or OUSU down in the eye and say 'I got here on my own merit, and not because someone held the door open for me'. Oxford is a meritocracy, and that's just the way it is.
(edited 4 years ago)
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