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llama boy
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#1
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OK, I'm not against the idea of an EU constitution, per se, but am not for the one currently being discussed for two main reasons.

(1) Democracy. If you accept the premises of representative democracy, there is no justification for an elected government to sign up for something like this, clearly against the wishes of the majority of the population.

(2) Further centralisation. The more things are centralised, the less power people have over their own lives, the less their wishes are taken into account, the more power corporations have to influence decision making (the whole EU is a classic example of this), etc etc. I'm not against an EU that exists to promote human rights, workers rights, environmental issues, anti-GATS etc, but the current EU is little more than a tool of the elite, and is slipping ever further from performing any useful task.
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Vienna
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(Original post by llama boy)
(2) Further centralisation. The more things are centralised, the less power people have over their own lives, the less their wishes are taken into account, the more power corporations have to influence decision making (the whole EU is a classic example of this), etc etc. I'm not against an EU that exists to promote human rights, workers rights, environmental issues, anti-GATS etc, but the current EU is little more than a tool of the elite, and is slipping ever further from performing any useful task.

and there was me thinking you were left wing.
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hildabeast
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(Original post by vienna95)
and there was me thinking you were left wing.
His assessment is a classic left wing view. The old left is very anti Europe.

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Vienna
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the constitution is nothing more than a farce. what on earth has been going on i dont know, but now we have a situation where by the spanish and polish want more say because, true to form, the french and germans, who have been let off fines for breaking the growth and stability pact for the 3rd straight time yesterday, are hogging the power. this is because they know that when the EU becomes 25, it will be predominanty pro-US and the weakened franco-german alliance will be the smaller fish in the pond. this wont bode well, as they also build pressure against france to end the ridiculously one-sided CAP that is raping the EU taxpayer purely to feed french farmers. meanwhile, the Labour government has suddenly decided that this is all rather important, as the conservatives and myself, had pointed out months ago and have actually decided to make a publicity stunt of it. unfortunately, they will make little concession other than to make a few threatening ultimatums to the council who want the entire continent to have harmonised tax and our foreign secretary answerable to European defence policy. whats even funnier is that there is nothing to agree on because the draft reads like an A to Z of ambiguity. those who point out that it needs time to manifest itself into a fully workable constitution are being bad mouthed by the irrate italians who ,true to form, are trying by any means necessary to get it through before the end of the year so that they can steal some much needed pride from it, irrespective of the fact that it will be near to useless.

the farcical situation we have now is the precedent for a bickering federal europe where defence spending is dwindling, economies are stalling and social democratic nonsense is bringing once great continents to their knees. i blame history.
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Vienna
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(Original post by hildabeast)
His assessment is a classic left wing view. The old left is very anti Europe.

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eh?
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Bigcnee
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(Original post by vienna95)
as the conservatives and myself, had pointed out months ago
I just had to laugh at this. I hope you are not suggesting the two are mutually exclusive.
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Vienna
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
I just had to laugh at this. I hope you are not suggesting the two are mutually exclusive.
why not?
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llama boy
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(Original post by hildabeast)
His assessment is a classic left wing view. The old left is very anti Europe.
Hmm, you're only partially right there, I think.

If you mean 'old left' as oppose to the 'new' labour support for free markets etc, then I'd argue that that position isn't so much 'new left' as 'not left'.

However, the 'old left' as you put it, did have a silly nationalistic outlook and the unions etc would often support protectionism and would be anti-Europe for that reason. I don't concur with that.
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not1
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EU constitution = bad
safeguard the nation state i say, bring back the EU as a free trade area and nothing more!
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llama boy
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(Original post by edders)
EU constitution = bad
safeguard the nation state i say
can't really see how the current setup of nation states is any more preferable, or any less arbitrary than an EU super-state would be.
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Vienna
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(Original post by llama boy)
Hmm, you're only partially right there, I think.

If you mean 'old left' as oppose to the 'new' labour support for free markets etc, then I'd argue that that position isn't so much 'new left' as 'not left'.

However, the 'old left' as you put it, did have a silly nationalistic outlook and the unions etc would often support protectionism and would be anti-Europe for that reason. I don't concur with that.
its not right full stop. and what has this got to do with what you wrote?
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not1
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(Original post by llama boy)
can't really see how the current setup of nation states is any more preferable, or any less arbitrary than an EU super-state would be.
a little thing called democracy needs to be preserved, mr llama
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Vienna
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(Original post by llama boy)
can't really see how the current setup of nation states is any more preferable, or any less arbitrary than an EU super-state would be.
im sure youve heard it all before

tax?
defence?
the euro?
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yawn1
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Can anybody remember (or know) which political party in this country got us into EU in the first place?
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llama boy
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(Original post by edders)
a little thing called democracy needs to be preserved, mr llama
well, obviously. my post was on the proviso that a USE would be set up in a democratic way, not as the undemocratic bureaucratic nightmare that the EU currently is.
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llama boy
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(Original post by vienna95)
im sure youve heard it all before

tax?
defence?
the euro?
eh? whatcha on about?
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not1
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(Original post by llama boy)
well, obviously. my post was on the proviso that a USE would be set up in a democratic way, not as the undemocratic bureaucratic nightmare that the EU currently is.
but its not going to be, thats the point; lets deal with the reality here! even if we could get a democratic 'USE', why would that be preferable to having decisions taken in westminster? surely the closer the centre of power is to the people the better?
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llama boy
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#18
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(Original post by edders)
but its not going to be, thats the point; lets deal with the reality here! even if we could get a democratic 'USE', why would that be preferable to having decisions taken in westminster? surely the closer the centre of power is to the people the better?
Yes, I'd say so, and in as much as decisions taken at Westminster would be more democratic than those taken by a USE, then it is preferable.

Just I don't think there would be a whole lot of difference.
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Bigcnee
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(Original post by vienna95)
why not?
So you are saying you don't have conservative views?
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not1
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(Original post by llama boy)
Just I don't think there would be a whole lot of difference.
hmm not immediately but give it 10, 20, 30 years then you'd start seeing the erosion of democracy.
tony blair is a traitor to his country if he signs the constitution knowing it will give up the powers of parliament.
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