Is being middle class overrated?

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rob6709

And your choice newspaper would be? I dont know its the same as calling people with shaven heads neo-nazis. Some people go bald and in my opinion it looks much better shaved off than having a bit on the sides lol.

Not quite lol. I was pointing out that, alot of people take pride in their newspaper, and lambast those of others. Gaurdian readers will attack Telegraph and vice versa.

All im saying is how can these people not be defined by the newspapers they read. (They pretty much choose to be defined by them tbh)

For instance, im not sure if the Sun does it anymore, but a year or so ago, it had the slogan "Chav and proud" next to its Title. Pretty much defining it's readers without giving them a choice.

Reply 181

romeosbitch

mipegg

Honestly, I think in todays society theres not a hell of a-lot of a class boundry any more. Anyone can get good grades and go to university if their prepaired to work hard for it, the 'cost' is not a factor (0% interest loan which you dont pay off till you can afford, woop).

As for being middle class, alot of the time I feel more discriminated against than the 'working' class. I work my ass off at school, get good grades which is enough for me but feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth when muppets who end up with Ds get 100 quid+ for passing?

Middle class isnt all its cracked up to be, atleast not as a teenager. You dont get any support as people expect you to be nice, but your not rich enough to be at the same level as those getting support

It's not 0% interest. I thought it was. After talking to a lot of people I'm starting to get the feeling students are being deliberately mis-led about this. Not that I wouldn't have had to take the loan anyway.

The rest of your points I agree with. Although having gone to a "rah" uni I'm not as middle class as I thought I was and its the lower middle classes who qualify for nothing and have to struggle to pay for everything that I feel sorry for. (i.e. myself).

Reply 182

xBubblesx

The middle class is a pretty broad spectrum these days though. Even now you could divide it into two sub groups

Upper Middle Class - those on very large income 75k+ a year, very comfortable, big house all the trimmings foreign holiday once a year (or more)
Although make no mistake I'm sure they work damn hard to get such a high income, I'm sure you'll agree this is a pretty comfortable lifestyle.

Lower Middle Class - Around 30K+ income. In a middle class job, and earning too much for any real gov. support especially where the teenage students are concerned. Pay a fortune in taxes to support those less well off, but see little return, and no doubt in some cases are poorer than those on lower income due to high taxation and few benefit returns, and financial it can be a struggle. Can't afford to support teenage children through uni, despite the governemnt expecting them to pay out a couple grand each year.

The lower middle class is definitely overrated, many work very very hard only to see most of their income taken away in taxes with few benefits

Reply 183

jacketpotato

mipegg

the 'cost' is not a factor (0% interest loan which you dont pay off till you can afford, woop).

As for being middle class, alot of the time I feel more discriminated against than the 'working' class. I work my ass off at school, get good grades which is enough for me but feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth when muppets who end up with Ds get 100 quid+ for passing?

Middle class isnt all its cracked up to be, atleast not as a teenager. You dont get any support as people expect you to be nice, but your not rich enough to be at the same level as those getting support

Naive. It still costs quite a lot to go to uni, and student loans are not free - the interest rate is currently 2.5%, way above anything you would get at the moment in a current account.

Your "Ds" comment very much illustrates the point. Because you are middle-class, you will almost certainly go to a decent school - most importantly because you will live in a reasonably nice area, but likely also becaue your parents will take the time to look into school admissions procedures. It is not so easy to get good grades if you go to a bad school with friends who encourage you to go out on the piss rather than study.

You say you are getting discriminated against because you don't get EMA. Ask yourself whether you would rather be getting EMA and Ds (a rather trivial sum), or whether you would rather be in the position you are in. After all, you are associating getting EMA with getting poor grades - this in of itself demonstrates that a class divide exists.

Reply 184

ChosenOne

lekky

Then I am in the middle, with a household income too high to get anything, but not enough that my family can give me any money at all when I go to university.

.

This is so true. Worst thing is, I'm not even middle class I just have two working parents.

Reply 185

mipegg

jacketpotato

Ok, first things first I go to a college in Hull which is all in all, a run down scum bucket. Next thing, my secondary was really not good at all, I just was mature enough to ignore the pricks who were trying to distract me and do the work myself. People not doing the work have no right to then look back and go 'but it wasnt my fault, my friends made me do it'. How childish does that sound?

I never said a student loan was free, but its about as good as an investment as your ever going to get. Invest 20,000 pound here for a greatly boosted income for the rest of your life? Doesn't seem like so much of a choice to me. Especially when (you cant refute this) you only pay it back when you can afford to.

As for the EMA part, perhaps alot of the pople getting Ds is because they get EMA. Nearly everyone I know on it goes out every weekend because they can affford to do so. Mean-while Im stuck trying to scrape enough money together to get to college and back every day. Fair?

I doubt however, either of us are going to sway one or other either way so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :p:

Reply 186

KimKallstrom

Well being given more opportunities than other people can't be that overrated.

Reply 187

Aeolus

ChosenOne

This is so true. Worst thing is, I'm not even middle class I just have two working parents.

My brother and sister are in exactly the same situation. I think it is a disgrace.

Reply 188

jacketpotato

mipegg

Invest 20,000 pound here for a greatly boosted income for the rest of your life? Doesn't seem like so much of a choice to me. Especially when (you cant refute this) you only pay it back when you can afford to.
I can absolutely refute this. You start paying your loan back once you are earning above 15k. This is hardly a princely amount of money! If you earn between 20k and 30k, its a very significant chunk of your income that is going down the pan: kind of like paying a higher rate of tax.

As for the EMA part, perhaps alot of the pople getting Ds is because they get EMA. Nearly everyone I know on it goes out every weekend because they can affford to do so. Mean-while Im stuck trying to scrape enough money together to get to college and back every day. Fair?

I very much doubt that the people who don't do any work would suddenly start studying on Friday and Saturday nights if they had a bit less cash.

I absolutely sympathise with you if you genuinely struggle to get enough money together to go to college. On a policy level, the EMA line is a difficult one to draw. Your reasoning hints at the politics of envy: "I don't get it, so they shouldn't get it either". Ultimately its about where you draw the exact line between parents being expected to give their kids money and the state stepping in. For some people like yourself, the line is too low. For others who spend it on booze, the line is too high.The expectation is that if your parents earn above 30k, they should be giving you money.

Interestingly, you allege that people who are poorer than you spends their EMA on going out. You imply that you need EMA to spend it on transport. Do they go to school for free or something? The logic of that is fairly fuzzy, and hints to me that you are being economical with the truth.

Reply 189

mipegg

jacketpotato

I can absolutely refute this. You start paying your loan back once you are earning above 15k. This is hardly a princely amount of money! If you earn between 20k and 30k, its a very significant chunk of your income that is going down the pan: kind of like paying a higher rate of tax.

I very much doubt that the people who don't do any work would suddenly start studying on Friday and Saturday nights if they had a bit less cash.

I absolutely sympathise with you if you genuinely struggle to get enough money together to go to college. On a policy level, the EMA line is a difficult one to draw. Your reasoning hints at the politics of envy: "I don't get it, so they shouldn't get it either". Ultimately its about where you draw the exact line between parents being expected to give their kids money and the state stepping in. For some people like yourself, the line is too low. For others who spend it on booze, the line is too high.The expectation is that if your parents earn above 30k, they should be giving you money.

Interestingly, you allege that people who are poorer than you spends their EMA on going out. You imply that you need EMA to spend it on transport. Do they go to school for free or something? The logic of that is fairly fuzzy, and hints to me that you are being economical with the truth.

For all people on any level of EMA our local council pays 70-90% of all transport costs involved in getting to or from college. So, if not for this I could accept them getting the money. It just seems silly to have such a blanket thing! Perhaps it would be fairer if everyone got something with it being increased the lower down your parents income was. Or atleast everyone getting the bonuses for achieving.

As for it sounding of jealousy, thats because its precisely what it is and I arent ashamed to admit it at all. Just does seem to match the description of discrimination if 2 people are doing the same work but 1 is being payed (or rewarded or treated) differently purely because of something which they have no control over? Though the whole EMA debate is one for another forum and one which, i suspect, will go on for a long time.

Is it really that much of a chunk of earnings? 15k/year for 1 person to live off is quite alot, if whole families manage to pay mortgage/bills/food off that (which they clearly do) then I think that most would be able to pay a bit out of it for their university loan. Though I wont find out first hand for a few years yet so that's purely speculation.

As with going out on friday and saturday nights, some of my friends do this (admittedly their doing BTECs so working in the same way isnt so much of an issue) and they effectively waste the whole weekend away. Drunk friday and saturday night, recovering sunday. So they end up getting no work done at all. I think it would just be interesting to see how things changed if people didnt go out so much! As it seems that the people I know who dont go out as often end up with As and Bs.

Reply 190

Joseph90

I don't understand how middle class can be over-rated. It doesn't seem to make sense and is a poor choice of words. I'm still going to go on what the OP asked though.

It isn't over-rated in my opinion. The middle class have everything set up for them. Even the lower middle class admittedly have a roof over their heads and would only need to worry about it if there were some very unfortunate circumstances. I'm middle middle class, it is funny how much the term is being divided isn't it? I am not qualified for EMA and maintenance grants but my parents can afford to assist me with thousands while I'm at Uni. Though I did not go to a private school, I went to my local comprehensive. If you really want to know I speak with a local accent and don't wear a tracksuit (wtf?).

The Labour government have their heart in the right place by trying to encourage people of all classes to go to University but when there are so many Universities and there is an opportunity to party for three years without paying a penny people will like this. More importantly, people are spending three years learning academia when less people are learning manual skills. There will be a shortage of people to do this work.

So my summary is (twisting the words of the OP), working class is under-rated and needs better incentives like support for going straight into work and higher wages. Basically the incentives that come with University and studying academia irrelevant to reality need to be put into avenues such as apprenticeships and going into work at the age of 16.

Reply 191

Aeolus

Joseph90

So my summary is (twisting the words of the OP), working class is under-rated and needs better incentives like support for going straight into work and higher wages. Basically the incentives that come with University and studying academia irrelevant to reality need to be put into avenues such as apprenticeships and going into work at the age of 16.

But why should working class kids go straight into work at 16 or do an apprenticeship. Why shouldn't we push middle class kids to get an apprenticeship or start working immediately?

Surely what you are proposing will just enlarge the class gap?

Reply 192

Joseph90

Aeolus

That's what I was thinking while I was writing. I should have added it doesn't have to be working classes going into one thing and middle classes into another.

I know some people who are middle class and have gone into such things as apprenticeships and are earning quite a bit of money already.

The most important thing is the freedom of choice no matter what class you are. The Labour government give a choice, yes but have over-incentivised University to draw in more students. It needs to be more balanced out. If lots of people have a degree and only a few know how to build a fence the world will struggle.

Reply 193

katierattray

My mum and Dad got divorced and I live in a council house so I take im working class. I think the class system is a waste of time and it causes rifts in communitys.

Reply 194

Aeolus

Joseph90

I agree wholeheartedly with this, i hate how an apprenticeship nowadays is looked down upon by those who go to university. Even though in all probability the individual who enrolled in said apprenticeship will become alot more usefull to society than his higher education counter-part. ( although i understand this is not always the case).