Grammar schools - do you agree?

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Bigcnee
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Blamps)
Y?
Because it means that comps underachieve and thus dont attract as good teachers, which leads to a stagnation in the local education system.
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Blamps
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#62
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
Because it means that comps underachieve and thus dont attract as good teachers, which leads to a stagnation in the local education system.
generalised?..after all, the limited amount of grammar schools means that not all the good teachers can teach at one...what about the private and public schools and their part in attratcting away better teachers
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Bigcnee
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#63
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(Original post by Blamps)
generalised?..after all, the limited amount of grammar schools means that not all the good teachers can teach at one...what about the private and public schools and their part in attratcting away better teachers
Yep, but they're not state controlled and thus, not an immediate issue.

I am talking about an area with multiple grammars in it.
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Blamps
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#64
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
Yep, but they're not state controlled and thus, not an immediate issue.

I am talking about an area with multiple grammars in it.
aaahhh but the flaw there is that there are loads of grammars in my area yet the comprehensive schools are good too
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Blamps
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#65
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(Original post by Blamps)
aaahhh but the flaw there is that there are loads of grammars in my area yet the comprehensive schools are good too
In fact, there are 6-7 grammars I think all within at least 10 maybe 15 miles of my house
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Blamps
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#66
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(Original post by Blamps)
In fact, there are 6-7 grammars I think all within at least 10 maybe 15 miles of my house
and the two at the top of the 2002 league table for GCSEs are 2 of those 6 or so grammars....they must be doing something right round here
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yawn1
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#67
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(Original post by Blamps)
aaahhh but the flaw there is that there are loads of grammars in my area yet the comprehensive schools are good too
Apart from Buckinghamshire, Kent is the only LEA in England that is 'wholly selective' and has 133 schools of which 33 are grammars, the largest ratio in the country.
Results generally are abysmal - out of 33 grammars only 3 managed to get all their pupils through the benchmark of at least 5 A* - C grades despite having top quartile of pupils.
Comps as a comparison (of which none are truly comprehensive due to 'creaming off' by grammars) get all of their top pupils, which may represent say top 37%, through the same benchmark.
Secondary moderns - can't say much about them because they don't achieve as well as country average as they have no pupils in top quartile. In fact 2 of Kent's secondary moderns regularly feature in the lowest 5 in country, having come last within preceding 3 years!
To say grammars are desirable is disingenuous. I see only one advantage in them and that's for those who are 'borderline', the rest statistically achieve more when in top streams at comps.
Grammars are divisive - they prevent siblings attending the same school (as confirmed by Dickie - the original thread creator)
Many attendees have to travel some distance and get free travel (a drain on LEA resources)
They are not 'neighbourhood' schools so you will not have a social mix.
Poorer families do not get their children into them (1.3% entitled to free school meals as opposed to 13.9% at comps)
They discriminate in admissions and won't admit children who don't fit their criteria.
Only plus, as I see it, is for those who go to them and see them as paragons. It's the "I'm allright Jack" mentality.
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claire1985
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#68
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
I bet you havent
I bet I have, i went to an ordinary comp for years 7-11, taught myself basically all of my subjects to get straight A's so I could get the hell out of there and go to a decent school for 6th Form
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kita
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#69
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(Original post by claire1985)
I bet I have, i went to an ordinary comp for years 7-11, taught myself basically all of my subjects to get straight A's so I could get the hell out of there and go to a decent school for 6th Form
I go to a Grammar school, and to be honest, i dont think it really matters where you go, as long as you work, The advantage with a grammar school is MOST of the people there want to work to achieve top grades, but so do alot of people in comps, only problem is there are alot of people who dont care in comps who can bring down those who do want to work.
As much as Grammar schools are an advantage to the people who wanna concentrate and get on with their work, i would also tend to agree that matbe they should be abolished because it causes alot of trouble, disappointment for those who do not get in and make 11year olds feel like failures if they do not pass 11+, i dont think 11 year old children should be put through it.
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claire1985
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#70
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(Original post by kita)
I go to a Grammar school, and to be honest, i dont think it really matters where you go, as long as you work, The advantage with a grammar school is MOST of the people there want to work to achieve top grades, but so do alot of people in comps, only problem is there are alot of people who dont care in comps who can bring down those who do want to work.
As much as Grammar schools are an advantage to the people who wanna concentrate and get on with their work, i would also tend to agree that matbe they should be abolished because it causes alot of trouble, disappointment for those who do not get in and make 11year olds feel like failures if they do not pass 11+, i dont think 11 year old children should be put through it.
They should learn to deal with rejection from that age-it's a fact of life! As far as i'm concerned, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages and if we abolish them we have given in to the common misconception that it is good to give everyone the same chance-it's not! Some people are more intelligent than others, some people don't even want to go to school (a reason to bring back work placements in plumbing etc). Therefore, it is stupid to assume everyone is the same because everyone has different educational aspirations and people shouldn't be denied the chance to excel just because it's 'un-pc'. If you want to abolish anything, abolish the concept of political correctness.
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Bigcnee
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#71
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(Original post by claire1985)
They should learn to deal with rejection from that age-it's a fact of life!
At 11 or 12? That is not only unfair, but the pressure put on by parents (albeit sometimes unconciously) can scar children. Comps can offer an equally competent education, but the existence of grammar schools is stopping them from reaching their potential.
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pkonline
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#72
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
At 11 or 12? That is not only unfair, but the pressure put on by parents (albeit sometimes unconciously) can scar children. Comps can offer an equally competent education, but the existence of grammar schools is stopping them from reaching their potential.
Also it doesn't take into account those who develop later on. Some who are wizzes at at later ages like 15 or 16 would be disadvantged. The 11+ isn't really a proper exam. Those schools which expect their kids to go to posh school basically drill it into their students everything they need to know to pass.
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Blamps
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#73
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(Original post by pkonline)
Also it doesn't take into account those who develop later on. Some who are wizzes at at later ages like 15 or 16 would be disadvantged. The 11+ isn't really a proper exam. Those schools which expect their kids to go to posh school basically drill it into their students everything they need to know to pass.
I got into a grammar when I was 16
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Bigcnee
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(Original post by Blamps)
I got into a grammar when I was 16
You mean after your GCSE's?

So what?
We all know that is possible.
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Blamps
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#75
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
You mean after your GCSE's?

So what?
We all know that is possible.
Refer to PK's thread
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yawn1
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#76
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I agree that putting children through an entrance exam for a state school at age 11 adds just another anxiety to the already-stressed 11 years olds' doing Key stage 2 exams. In this country we are the most exam- oriented in the world and where has it got us? We are no further up the world rankings than those who don't over-examine - it's a political panacea to convince parents that we are doing well.
Regarding entrance to grammars at 16 - this is a totally different case. Lots of high schools do not have 6th forms or if they do they tend to concentrate on vocational courses. So what is happening is that clusters of secondary schools are forming consortiums and sharing available educational 'pathways'. What this means in practice is that students who were at highs' can transfer to grammars to pursue a more academic course. Another scenario is that schools share their resources and some grammar pupils may go to highs to have their lessons in,say languages or IT and highs' pupils go to grammars for lessons that their own schools may be undersubcribed for.
Now that the government are intent on stopping the free provision of school transport for all except those whose families are in receipt of income support we may see a move into integration of neighbourhood schools, whereby pupils go to the school nearest to them. In this event all schools will become all-ability. Those that choose not to may have to become fee-paying.
Lots of changes on the horizon I believe.
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Bigcnee
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#77
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(Original post by Blamps)
Refer to PK's thread
I think you mean post, and she is referring to the years between 7 and 11, in which some will have been disavantaged.
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Blamps
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#78
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
I think you mean post, and she is referring to the years between 7 and 11, in which some will have been disavantaged.
Yeah, post whatever...point taken...they will be disadvataged I do agree there but, I was just saying that it is not necessarily always the case
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Bigcnee
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Blamps)
Yeah, post whatever...point taken...they will be disadvataged I do agree there but, I was just saying that it is not necessarily always the case
Yes... the exception being - when they can go to a Comprehensive. This will also give them a chance to develop and then they can be streamed accordingly.

Note: A recent survey showed that Finland had the best education system. Finland only has Comprehensive schools.
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Blamps
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#80
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#80
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Yes... the exception being - when they can go to a Comprehensive. This will also give them a chance to develop and then they can be streamed accordingly.

Note: A recent survey showed that Finland had the best education system. Finland only has Comprehensive schools.
I remember you saying that....differences in culture perhaps...maybe...however, the fact that in a paradoxical way, Dianne Abbot took her kids out of a comp and put them into a private school cannot help the case for comps..bloody champagne socialists
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