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D&D Theology's "Ask About Mormonism" Thread watch

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    (Original post by wannabe mexican)
    Can I ask if you believe an angel can appear as an angel of light?
    Hey,

    Well the only other example of when bright light is connected with an angel is in Acts 12:7 when the Angel of the Lord rescues Peter from his cell. However, the use of 'the' separates this angel from other angels, which are referred to as 'an angel of the Lord' or 'angels of the Lord'. 'The angel of the Lord' seems to refer to a unique angel. The people who see this angel often claim they have seen the Lord, so perhaps this angel also represents something of what God looks like. The angel of the Lord stops appearing after Jesus' incarnation in the New Testament, so it's possible that the angel of the Lord is manifestations of Christ before He became human form- although the Bible does not clearly state this, it is a speculation.

    However, the book of Mormon does not state that it was an angel of the Lord- and indeed, this event described in the book of Mormon takes place long after Jesus' life, death, Resurrection and ascension. Apart from that, the only instance where an angel is associated with bright light is the warning of Satan masquerading as an angel of light, which makes me immediately suspicious of the angel that visited Joseph Smith.
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    Wiki Support Team
    I have added this to the "Ask A..." thread as a link, and changed the title
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    (Original post by jmj)
    Hey,

    Well the only other example of when bright light is connected with an angel is in Acts 12:7 when the Angel of the Lord rescues Peter from his cell. However, the use of 'the' separates this angel from other angels, which are referred to as 'an angel of the Lord' or 'angels of the Lord'. 'The angel of the Lord' seems to refer to a unique angel. The people who see this angel often claim they have seen the Lord, so perhaps this angel also represents something of what God looks like. The angel of the Lord stops appearing after Jesus' incarnation in the New Testament, so it's possible that the angel of the Lord is manifestations of Christ before He became human form- although the Bible does not clearly state this, it is a speculation.

    However, the book of Mormon does not state that it was an angel of the Lord- and indeed, this event described in the book of Mormon takes place long after Jesus' life, death, Resurrection and ascension. Apart from that, the only instance where an angel is associated with bright light is the warning of Satan masquerading as an angel of light, which makes me immediately suspicious of the angel that visited Joseph Smith.
    That is some interesting stuff. I will have to have a little look into that myself.
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    Mormons get your butts out here and reply.
    :furher:
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Mormons get your butts out here and reply.
    Unfortunately, I don't know of any Mormon regulars in D&D. Those that come usually disappear quickly.
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    (Original post by AlphaOmega)
    Well it certainly ain't the fastest, this is yet another often repeated mormon myth. The mormon church enjoyed great growth through out the post war years of the 1950's through to the 1980's. During this time an independant (non-mormon) researcher carried out a study, that showed if the mormon church continued to enjoy similar growth fover the next century, it would reach 250 million plus members. Mormons immediately
    jumped onto this research as proof that they were the true church & that gods hand would turn it into the world '4th religion'.

    Unfortunately for mormons, the research didn't turn into fact & convert growth in the LDS church flatlined as the 1980's came to a close. In 1999 the mormon Prophet Gordon B Hinkley, challenged the 50,000 mormon missionaries, to double the number of convert baptisms. In the five years that followed this was the result of his challenge....

    1999 - 306,171
    2000 - 273,973
    2001 - 292,612
    2002 - 283,138
    2003 - 242,923

    Yep, the Prophet hath spoke.
    To add on to this point, Mormons do twist the numbers of membership. Offically, the Church claims that it has 12 million members, although the number could actually be a lot lower. For example, according to the US 2000 Census, 2.5 million considered themselves as Mormons in the census. However, the Church states that there were actually 5 million members in the same year. Here in the UK, the Church claims 230'000 members but the 2001 Census recorded 160'000 Mormons living in the country.

    This twisting with numbers is to do with the fact that the church bases it's membership on baptismal records and fails to take into account the tens of thousands that resign from the church every year and the tens of thousands that are no longer active members. To resign from the church, you have to ask the bishop of your local church to have your name struck from the church records. This is a lengthy process because it's often the case that the bishop simply can't be arsed to process the resignation, and that there is the slim hope that one would change their mind about resigning (trust me, I've been trying to get my name removed from the records for the past 3 months!).

    Because it takes so much time to get your name removed, and the risks that it carries (being shunned from friends and family that happen to be Mormon, for example), many former members don't bother. Which is good for the church, as it means they can inflate the numbers. Those pesky Mormons
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    Unfortunately, I don't know of any Mormon regulars in D&D. Those that come usually disappear quickly.
    yeah I've noticed that in the past. About a week ago I sent one of the mormons from this thread a pm asking if they could get back to us, no reply of yet...
    ...perhaps they erm, don't have the internet anymore:confused: :confused: :confused:
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    (Original post by jmj)
    However, the book of Mormon does not state that it was an angel of the Lord- and indeed, this event described in the book of Mormon takes place long after Jesus' life, death, Resurrection and ascension. Apart from that, the only instance where an angel is associated with bright light is the warning of Satan masquerading as an angel of light, which makes me immediately suspicious of the angel that visited Joseph Smith.
    Your argument does make some sense to me, but it would make more sense if the LDS church was actually preaching an opposing gospel to that taught by other Christian denominations. If Satan was masquerading as an angel of light, then surely we would be being taught un-Godly and un-christian doctrine (ignoring the doctrine of the trinity argument for a moment). - However, IMHO, we are taught a much purer gospel than any other church. We don't drink, smoke or take drugs, we stay chaste. Most members truly live the gospel and are willing to hold themselves accountable to Christ's standards.

    Now, I'm not saying that the LDS church is the only way to glory after death as we believe that we do not hold the only path to Heavenly Father. We believe that other denominations of Christianity are doing the best they can to preach what they believe to be the fullness of the gospel, but unfortunately, they may as well still be living in an apostasy as they have no prophet and therefore no way of receiving true revelation.
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    (Original post by Oven)
    Your argument does make some sense to me, but it would make more sense if the LDS church was actually preaching an opposing gospel to that taught by other Christian denominations. If Satan was masquerading as an angel of light, then surely we would be being taught un-Godly and un-christian doctrine (ignoring the doctrine of the trinity argument for a moment). - However, IMHO, we are taught a much purer gospel than any other church. We don't drink, smoke or take drugs, we stay chaste. Most members truly live the gospel and are willing to hold themselves accountable to Christ's standards.

    Now, I'm not saying that the LDS church is the only way to glory after death as we believe that we do not hold the only path to Heavenly Father. We believe that other denominations of Christianity are doing the best they can to preach what they believe to be the fullness of the gospel, but unfortunately, they may as well still be living in an apostasy as they have no prophet and therefore no way of receiving true revelation.

    Hey,

    Thanks for your response. I don't mean any offence here, but to be honest the view of many Christians (including myself) is that Mormonism does present doctrine and beliefs contrary to the Gospel. It's not really about various things you do or don't do (although of course it is important to live life in response to the grace of the Gospel), but about doctrines and beliefs. There are many areas of Mormonism which I feel are counter to the truths taught in the Bible.

    One example of this is the dating of the revelation of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Paul, in Ephesians 3:3-7, states that the inclusion of the Gentiles came after the death and Resurrection of Jesus. However, in 2 Nephi 25:19, 26:12, 30:2 and 31:17 the Book of Mormon holds that Gentiles were included in the Gospel at 547 BC.

    Another contradiction is the promise of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ prophesies in Luke 24:49 that He will send His Spirit after His Resurrection; wheras 2 Nephi 31:12-13 claims the Spirit came in 545 BC.

    Mormonism also holds different teachings about Jesus than the Bible. For example, Mormon prophet Orson Pratt claimed God and Mary came together as husband and wife, whereas the Bible claims that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, 20)

    One of the main differences between Mormonism and Christianity has been highlighted in your own post. You claim Christians have not had the 'true revelation' and does not have the fullness of the Gospel, whereas the Bible states the opposite:

    2 Peter 1:3 “3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

    The Bible says about itself that it is all we need for salvation in Christ.

    Also- even if there were no doctrinal issues/contradictions between Mormonism and Christianity, the point still stands that the founder of Mormonism was visited by an angel that matches the description of the angel of light ie Satan in the Bible. How do we know that the angel that visited Joseph Smith wasn't Satan?

    Thanks for replying, and I'd be really interested in your response
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    (Original post by MazalTov89)
    To add on to this point, Mormons do twist the numbers of membership. Offically, the Church claims that it has 12 million members, although the number could actually be a lot lower. For example, according to the US 2000 Census, 2.5 million considered themselves as Mormons in the census. However, the Church states that there were actually 5 million members in the same year. Here in the UK, the Church claims 230'000 members but the 2001 Census recorded 160'000 Mormons living in the country.

    This twisting with numbers is to do with the fact that the church bases it's membership on baptismal records and fails to take into account the tens of thousands that resign from the church every year and the tens of thousands that are no longer active members. To resign from the church, you have to ask the bishop of your local church to have your name struck from the church records. This is a lengthy process because it's often the case that the bishop simply can't be arsed to process the resignation, and that there is the slim hope that one would change their mind about resigning (trust me, I've been trying to get my name removed from the records for the past 3 months!).

    Because it takes so much time to get your name removed, and the risks that it carries (being shunned from friends and family that happen to be Mormon, for example), many former members don't bother. Which is good for the church, as it means they can inflate the numbers. Those pesky Mormons
    The numbers are what we have according to church records. However only a third of the members we have on record are actually actively involved in the church. Thus the 230,000 members in the UK is prob accurate, but many don't participate, some have even forgotten they are members.

    To have your name removed from church records one has to contact the church and ask to be removed. If you don't do this then your name remains on the list. But this situation is not exclusive to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is easier to be removed from the church than many other churches though. We just wanna make sure you know what you are asking for is all. And anyone who will shun you for having your name removed is also gonna shun you for simply not going to church anymore, that is not a problem with the church, that is just having a crap circle of friends and a rubbish family!
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    yeah I've noticed that in the past. About a week ago I sent one of the mormons from this thread a pm asking if they could get back to us, no reply of yet...
    ...perhaps they erm, don't have the internet anymore:confused: :confused: :confused:
    PM me if you want. I'll see what I can come up with.
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    (Original post by wannabe mexican)
    PM me if you want. I'll see what I can come up with.
    As in I pm'd oven to come and answer things on this thread, after bumping this thread, and he never came (until yesterday anyway), I'm quite glad I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
    I find it an odd co-incidence that after I bumped this thread, you didn't come, but as soon as oven replied you were there.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    As in I pm'd oven to come and answer things on this thread, after bumping this thread, and he never came (until yesterday anyway), I'm quite glad I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
    I find it an odd co-incidence that after I bumped this thread, you didn't come, but as soon as oven replied you were there.
    Oven made the mistake of starting the thread at teh beginning of summer so I would maybe cut some slack until uni starts up again and everyone returns. Also I am rubbish at religious debate so I come on to see what Oven says more than anything. And it is interesting to see what anti-mormon stuff Alpha Omega comes out with, but I'm not really following the thread and can't be bothered to go back and read everything. But I see how bad this all looks so am gonna make myself more available is all.
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    (Original post by wannabe mexican)
    Oven made the mistake of starting the thread at teh beginning of summer so I would maybe cut some slack until uni starts up again and everyone returns
    I assumed that the mormons would use the holiday break as an excuse to avoid the thread.
    Doesn't the fact that people have been on holiday, mean that they would have more not less time to answer this thread?

    (Original post by wannabe mexican)
    And it is interesting to see what anti-mormon stuff Alpha Omega comes out with
    Oh that is such an annoying term! What exactly does 'Anti Mormon' mean anyway? You don't pre-qualify all your posts as Pro-Mormon & indeed someone (Oven I think) used the laughable line earlier in this thread "If you want to know about mormonisn, ask a mormon". Oven and other mormons have peddled their faith promoting accounts of mormonism on here & I have simply questioned those accounts using official mormon sources, quotes from Mormon Leaders & other identified materials.

    To describe these things as 'Anti Mormon' just encourages other mormons not to read them. It's the oldest trick in the book & something that the mormon hierarchy perpetuate beautifully....."Ooh you mustn't read that, it's ANTI MORMON."
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    (Original post by AlphaOmega)
    I assumed that the mormons would use the holiday break as an excuse to avoid the thread.
    Doesn't the fact that people have been on holiday, mean that they would have more not less time to answer this thread?



    Oh that is such an annoying term! What exactly does 'Anti Mormon' mean anyway? You don't pre-qualify all your posts as Pro-Mormon & indeed someone (Oven I think) used the laughable line earlier in this thread "If you want to know about mormonisn, ask a mormon". Oven and other mormons have peddled their faith promoting accounts of mormonism on here & I have simply questioned those accounts using official mormon sources, quotes from Mormon Leaders & other identified materials.

    To describe these things as 'Anti Mormon' just encourages other mormons not to read them. It's the oldest trick in the book & something that the mormon hierarchy perpetuate beautifully....."Ooh you mustn't read that, it's ANTI MORMON."
    Well I didn't really want to spend my summer sat in front of my laptop in my room. I was off out as much as I could be and doing other summery things! I post here more in term time as a way of avoiding studying...

    Yeah I say anti for lack of a better word really. But you have a point there.
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    So basically...
    anti-denotes an almost closed mindedness against Mormonism.
    critical-open minded but asks lots of questions and more in the way of criticisms using logic instead of closed mindedness.
    AKA if Mormonism does have all the answers then the questioner may convert to Mormonism.
 
 
 
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