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    (Original post by Oven)
    Different individuals criterion all differ slightly.
    Well of course, but is it not the case that the Gospel teaches that Jesis is God, and Paul warns us that any deviation from this Gospel is no gospel at all?
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    (Original post by Oven)
    No, we believe that other churches are also Christian - they just do not have the fullness of the gospel.

    What makes us Christian?

    Our belief in God
    Our belief in Jesus Christ
    Our belief that salvation can only come through Jesus Christ
    Our belief in Christ's second coming etc.

    The only major difference between ourselves and most other Christians is the doctrine of the Trinity - we believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three very distinct and separate beings (rather than all being essentially essentially the same thing).
    How can salvation be facilitated through Jesus if he is not God?
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    (Original post by Magnum Opus)
    How can salvation be facilitated through Jesus if he is not God?
    Because Jesus is the son of God.
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    (Original post by Oven)
    Because Jesus is the son of God.
    But Jesus is not God? Only God, who is supreme, has the capacity to grant salvation. Jesus as a Son of God but not God himself is only an offshoot of God, and thus incapable of granting salvation. Jesus is necessary to be God if you seek salvation from Jesus. You cannot obtain salvation through Jesus as a mediator from God either, as that contradicts many of the reasons Jesus came to Earth from heaven. Jesus established it so that a person can have direct personal contact with the living God, he did not establish it so that we can encounter God through another person, Jesus.

    Would you call yourself monotheistic?
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    (Original post by jhs08)
    Well of course, but is it not the case that the Gospel teaches that Jesis is God, and Paul warns us that any deviation from this Gospel is no gospel at all?
    Matthew 3:16-17
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased


    Matthew 20:23
    And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. - differentiating himself from the father here

    John 12:27-29
    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    - Jesus praying to his father.

    John 14:28
    Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - Jesus seconding himself to the Father.

    Just a few references for you there.
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    (Original post by Magnum Opus)
    But Jesus is not God? Only God, who is supreme, has the capacity to grant salvation. Jesus as a Son of God but not God himself is only an offshoot of God, and thus incapable of granting salvation. Jesus is necessary to be God if you seek salvation from Jesus. You cannot obtain salvation through Jesus as a mediator from God either, as that contradicts many of the reasons Jesus came to Earth from heaven. Jesus established it so that a person can have direct personal contact with the living God, he did not establish it so that we can encounter God through another person, Jesus.

    Would you call yourself monotheistic?
    Yes, we are monotheistic.

    To us, Jesus is the medium through which we have contact with heavenly father. In prayer, all of our prayers are addressed to Heavenly Father but are in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not God - God is God.
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    (Original post by Oven)
    Yes, we are monotheistic.

    To us, Jesus is the medium through which we have contact with heavenly father. In prayer, all of our prayers are addressed to Heavenly Father but are in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not God - God is God.
    If Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus has a part of God? Like a DemiGod. So you cannot be monotheistic...

    Jesus came to get rid of that medium, why would he simply replace it?
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    (Original post by Oven)
    Matthew 3:16-17
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased


    Matthew 20:23
    And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. - differentiating himself from the father here

    John 12:27-29
    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    - Jesus praying to his father.

    John 14:28
    Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - Jesus seconding himself to the Father.

    Just a few references for you there.
    Those verses show thar Jesus and the Father are not the same thing. I don't dispute that. But you haven't answered my question:

    Is it not the case that the Gospel (ie the New Testament) teaches that Jesus is God, and Paul warns us that any deviation from this Gospel is no gospel at all?
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    (Original post by SOAD_MONGOOSE)
    Do Mormons think: 1.there are "magic" underwear which prevent physical harm
    2.You can't get into heaven without knowing a secret ritual
    3. Joseph Smith claimed a man is 10 times more likely to get into heaven if he has 10 wives rather than 1
    4.God lives on a planet/near a star named Colup (sp?)
    5.The garden of Eden was in Missouri.
    6.Black people were the descendants of "kane" and God threw a fire ball at them which subsequently darkened their skin.
    7.Native Americans were originally "white", but they rejected Jesus Christ and so God changed their skin colour to "red".
    8.God engaged in physical sex with Mary.
    9.Dinosaur fossils were created by the devil to deceive us.
    10.The new Zion will be in Missouri.
    11. Joseph Smith was threatned by an angel with a sword to start Polygomy.
    12. Jesus was married (several times) with kids.
    13.Men are only able to produce miracles.
    Oh...can of worms alert! :yes:


    Well where to start on this thread? In all fairness many Mormons have a really poor knowledge of their own beliefs & tend to be spoon fed the PR friendly version of mormonism, that their church has cultured over the last 30 years or so.

    I may come back to this thread later, as mormon propaganda (and blatant untruths being spread by mormons is one of my pet hates, (I was a practicing mormon for 30+ years & served a two year mission before seeing through it as the cult that it is but for now......

    1. Yes many mormons believe that their 'temple garments' will keep them safe from sin AND physical danger. The church may not officially publish this but many local leaders Bishops etc certainly tell the members that garments will provide protection to them.

    2. True. Mormons are all encouraged to attend a mormon temple (not to be mistaken with mormon church buildings) in order to learn the secret signs & handshakes that they need to give the angels, guarding the entrance to heaven. Without knowing these handshakes & signs, mormons are taught that they can not enter the highest degree of heaven. Only mormons that pay tithing (10% of their income) to the church, are worthy to enter the temple but please don't confuse this with an entrance fee!

    3. Early mormon prophets taught & lived Polygamous lifestyles & indeed taught that only those living this law could enter the highest degree of glory. I never heard specific numbers mentioned, so although 10 is probably a rumour, having more than 1 wife was a requirement.

    4. Yes, the mormon scriptures (The Pearl of Great Price) teaches that God lives on the Planet Kolob, although you won't ever hear this taught in a modern day mormon Sunday meeting.

    5. Yes, Joseph Smith (the founder of mormonism) identified a spot in Missouri, as the Garden of Eden & amazingly, even claimed to have found an alter used by Adam in this location.

    6. Early mormon teachings were that blacks were a cursed race & black men were not allowed to receive the mormon Priesthood until a revelation in summer 1978 lifted the ban. Rumours that U.S President Jimmy Carter threatened a few months earlier, to remove the mormon churches 'charitable status' (& therefore generous tax breaks) if they didn't lift the ban, remain unconfirmed.

    7. Yep. The original versions of the book of mormon claimed that the ancient inhabitants of America were cursed with a mark of dark skin, after they became wicked & fell away from the ways of god. However, the Book of Mormon promised that they could become 'White & Delightsome' once again, if they embraced the Book of Mormon. When Native Americans joined the church in numbers but didn't turn white, the church quietly changed the scripture reference in 1981 to 'Pure & Delightsome'

    8. In the EARLY days of the church this doctrine was taught by leaders of the church. Most mormons still believe this to be true but once again, it's a controversial doctrine that the mormons generally avoid discussing these days.

    9. Not an official doctrine but certainly believed by many mormons (and in all fairness by many other Christians) because it doesn't tie in with the story of creation in the bible.

    10. Yes, The mormons have 13 'Articles of Faith' which cover their key beliefs. AOF 10 states that...We believe that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent

    11. Yep, Joseph Smith told his first wife Emma that an angel with a flaming sword threatened to destroy him if he did not agree to take plural wives....."Oh go on then Mr Scary Angel but only if I really have to!"

    12. Again not one that you will hear taught these days but again (yep, you've guessed it) early mormon prophets taught this doctrine & in all fairness most mormons these days, certainly beleive that Jesus was married at least once, as mormons believe that without marriage, it's impossible to reach the highest degree of heaven.

    13. Never heard this one personally but only men are allowed to hold the priesthood & therefore to perform blessings of the sick.

    Apologies for the long post but I'm a believer in people hearing both sides of the story. There is lots more mormon untruths in this thread but I'm too busy to address them right now.
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    I really hope to read that post quoted by a current mormon, so I really hope you get a reply.
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    (Original post by Subcutaneous)
    hope that helps
    What do you think of the above post which states otherwise?
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    (Original post by SOAD_MONGOOSE)
    What do you think of the above post which states otherwise?
    Like the poster before you, I'd also love some of the earlier posters to comment on my previous post & tell me what I've got wrong. As I said before, this thread contains so many mistruths & half truths from mormons. I'll try to address some more of them later & wll be interested to see the response from mormons.

    Sadly my experience is that many (and I'm tempted to say most) mormons have a very limited knowledge of their own religion. The modern day mormon church is very PR savvy & has dry cleaned a lot of their own controversial doctrines over the last 20/30 years.

    The reality is that someone could be raised in the mormon church or converted into it these days, without ever hearing about polygamy, the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, changes to the book of mormon, changes to the temple ceremony & so many other things that have been written out of mormon history. It's pretty sinister how they have re-invented themselves to be honest.
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    (Original post by AlphaOmega)
    Like the poster before you, I'd also love some of the earlier posters to comment on my previous post & tell me what I've got wrong. As I said before, this thread contains so many mistruths & half truths from mormons. I'll try to address some more of them later & wll be interested to see the response from mormons.

    Sadly my experience is that many (and I'm tempted to say most) mormons have a very limited knowledge of their own religion. The modern day mormon church is very PR savvy & has dry cleaned a lot of their own controversial doctrines over the last 20/30 years.

    The reality is that someone could be raised in the mormon church or converted into it these days, without ever hearing about polygamy, the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, changes to the book of mormon, changes to the temple ceremony & so many other things that have been written out of mormon history. It's pretty sinister how they have re-invented themselves to be honest.
    Thanks for the reply. Are you an ex Mormon?
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    I really hope to read that post quoted by a current mormon, so I really hope you get a reply.
    I wouldn't hold your breath! While mormons are happy to do 'hit & run' postings on forums, they rarely hang around to answer the difficult questions.

    Well I've trawled through the first half of this entire thread, I'll cover the 2nd part another time, including the South Park episode on Mormons which while irreverent (as you'd expect with South Park) is actually VERY acurate.

    (Original post by Oven)
    Where exactly on the American continent that Jesus was is unknown and comes down mainly to opinion. - I believe that the most commonly cited opinion is that Jesus visited somewhere in central America or southern Mexico. - The only evidence that we have is unfortunately the book of mormon and other revelations revealed unto our Prophets - and of course If I was standing from the outside looking in it would only be natural to be skeptical about that.
    Why do mormons only have a 'commonly cited opinion' of where events in the Book of Mormon happened, Oven? Joseph Smith claimed to have recieved many visits from the Angel Moroni, who led him to the gold plates which mormons believe were translated into the Book of Mormon. Didn't Moroni tell Smith where the events happened? Can't the current mormon prophet ask god to clarify where the events took place.

    (Original post by Oven)
    It's one of the things we believe happened. It however isn't the cornerstone of our religion.
    Ohhh, that's a bit naughty Oven. The title page of the Book of Mormon, describes it as “a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible?, the fulness of the everlasting gospel” Joseph Smith testified that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion.

    So I think that mormons DO believe that the fact Jesus visited America is a cornerstone (or at least a keystone) of mormonism.

    (Original post by Oven)

    Joseph Smith is the man who I guess you could say started Mormonism. He was a man who lived and grew up in a very rural setting, no firm education and as even testified by Emma Smith (his wife) he was not capable of producing a piece of writing such as the book of Mormon - it was only through revelation and the spirit that he could.

    As for the other questions, I will answer them tomorrow hopefully - time for me to go!
    Another mormon myth. Mormons love to trot out the line that Smith was some uneducated baffoon. The reality is that his father (Joseph Smith snr) & his older brother (Hyrum) both taugh at local schools, outside of the farming season, so why would Smith be uneducated? Also, in her biography, Smiths mother Lucy gives accounts of how the young Smith would entertain the family with stories about the ancient inhabitants of North America, describing their customs, way of dress etc. This was years before he claimed to have the gold plates in his possession. Even as a youngster Smith was clearly a confident child with good oration skills & a vivid memory....unless his mother was a liar?

    (Original post by Subcutaneous)
    yeah shes a nutjob.

    the girls dress modestly out of choice, and tbh i still do..i VERY rarely wear vests out of home/short skirts..but i think thats just my style not necessarily my upbringing.
    Rubbish!

    My wife is still active & has recently filled out a form for our daughter to attend the mormon Young Womens camp this summer. The form clearly stated the dress and grooming standards that are expected. Only one set of piercings per ear (I wonder if Jesus would be allowed into a mormon church with his double hand/feet piercings) no skirts above the knee, no splits in skirts above the knee, no bare shoulders or vest tops etc. In their Sunday lessons the Young Women are regularly told what the dress standards are.

    The peer pressure to conform in mormonism is enormous, especially with the youth. The 'Strength of Youth' pamphlet leaves mormon kids in no doubt what the dress standards are & their parents & leaders regularly hammer these standards home.
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    I've tried talking to my mormon friend about morminism but that is an impossible task. Always trying to dodge around the questions and when I made a whole list of unanswerable ones she never got around to answering the questions, and just kept believing.
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    How did I not notice this thread?! I thought I was the only mormon on tsr, apart from Heather1979, who didn't really do us any favours!!
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    (Original post by Oven)
    Because Jesus is the son of God.
    Duh....
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    (Original post by PoliceStory)
    Is the South Park representation, and the story to go with it accurate?
    When I was doing my precelyting mission I met a guy who watched that episode and then ordered a Book of Mormon on the internet. I baptised him a few months later, and now, 3 years on he is still a strong member.

    It was probably one of the more ironic things I came across on my mission.
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    (Original post by wannabe mexican)
    When I was doing my precelyting mission I met a guy who watched that episode and then ordered a Book of Mormon on the internet. I baptised him a few months later, and now, 3 years on he is still a strong member.

    It was probably one of the more ironic things I came across on my mission.
    I hope that wasn't an attempt at answering the question.
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    Well I've just read this entire thread and am more confused than ever. Do you lot even know yourselves what you think happened? I had a Mormon friend when I was growing up and her beliefs actually astounded me that anyone could be so utterly blind and ridiculous in their faith. Nobody in this thread has managed to clear up any of it, so I'm off.
 
 
 
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