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    (Original post by Son of Adam)
    Personally, yes.
    Without islam, I'd not care to mistreat who is harming me wheather he is Muslim or not.
    But Islam encourge me to forgive the unbeliever if they harm me.
    me, therefore I follow-step my shining example I mean my prophets like Ibrahiam who set an example of dutful person to his parents I mean His non-Muslim (Believer)father.

    Or My last prophet Mohammad who forgive to kuffar people who totrued him when the upper hand was with the Prophet.

    Allaah says concerning this (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And by the Mercy of Allaah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh‑hearted, they would have broken away from about you; so pass over (their faults), and ask (Allaah’s) forgiveness for them; and consult them in the affairs. Then when you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allaah, certainly, Allaah loves those who put their trust (in Him)”

    [Aal ‘Imraan 3:159]
    etc.. etc..

    Without Islam, I'd not care to protect other people rather i'd not care to be rude and bully.
    But because islam make insulting people, laughing at them or looking them down a henious sin, i fear god to indulge in such a sin for sake of god in order to please on me.
    I'll give you an example, When a man insulted his brother (in Islam) for having a black mother, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to him, “You are a man who still has jaahiliyyah (ignorance) in him.” Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “There was an argument between me and one of my brothers whose mother was non-Arab. I insulted him about his mother, and he complained about me to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). I met the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “O Abu Dharr, you are a man who still has jaahiliyyah (ignorance) in him.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari and Muslim; this version narrated by Muslim, 3139).

    Without Islam, I might steal (If i found a chance to do)because no body cares nor suited me.
    But, because Islam taugh us that Blood-money and expiation must be paid if one unintentionally kills a "disbeliever" (Accident by car for instance )who is protected by sharee’ah, i scared to just attempt to commit such a crime.

    Btw, If a Muslim deliberately murdered non-muslim The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the smell of Paradise though its smell is perceived from a distance of forty years."


    Also,Since the upper hand was with the Muslims, the Prophet strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:

    “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)

    That's why I need islam to abstian me from commiting any corruptian.
    I more intoxcated for helping you to understand the reason.
    Tc.
    What on earth are you babbling about? :confused:

    No, scratch that, I don't want to know about religions. Gave up on them a long time ago.
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    (Original post by Son of Adam)
    That's why I need islam to abstian me from commiting any corruptian.
    I more intoxcated for helping you to understand the reason.
    Tc.
    Would you really do all of those things? Is it only Islam which is stopping you? Why are there plenty of atheists who can think up their own morals? I think it's good to forgive people and wrong to bully people, steal and kill, but I don't get this from scripture.
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    Would you really do all of those things? .
    Yes, I ask my god to ongoing fearing him from commiting anything immoral and harmful including looking people down.
    Is it only Islam which is stopping you?
    Honestly, yes.
    Why are there plenty of atheists who can think up their own morals? I think it's good to forgive people and wrong to bully people, steal and kill, but I don't get this from scripture
    Ok, let me ask you- Would you find an atheist be faithful, sincere, careful about his wife or his "girl-friend" I.e not cheating on his wife or something?
    By engaging in online cheating – using chat rooms, webcams and online services to arrange sexual encounters?
    Attracting more women? Having sex with someone new?

    Without Islam i wouldn't care to cheat on my "future" wife daily, gazing at women, chatting with naked women online, but because i fear my creator who banned me to commit such a corruption, and his messengers taught me how to maintain goodness in the face of these sins, I don't follow any satanic caller.
    Alhamdoillah.
    My shining example of this my beloved peity prophet Yousf or -what you called him jospeh- and how he ignored the invition of the woman who sought to seduce him.
    Furhmore, he was asking god to save him from her.
    In Quran,which means: “And if You do not avert from me their plan, I might incline toward them
    and [thus] be of the ignorant.’” [Yoosuf: 33]
    Allaah responds to the supplications of the righteous. Allaah says in the thirtyfourth verse:
    which means: “So his Lord responded to him and averted from him their plan. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” [Yoosuf: 34] He is All-hearing of the supplication,and All-knowing of the situation of the supplicant.
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    (Original post by Son of Adam)
    Yes, I ask my god to ongoing fearing him from commiting anything immoral and harmful including looking people down.

    Honestly, yes.

    Ok, let me ask you- Would you find an atheist be faithful, sincere, careful about his wife or his "girl-friend" I.e not cheating on his wife or something?
    By engaging in online cheating – using chat rooms, webcams and online services to arrange sexual encounters?
    Attracting more women? Having sex with someone new?

    Without Islam i wouldn't care to cheat on my "future" wife daily, gazing at women, chatting with naked women online, but because i fear my creator who banned me to commit such a corruption, and his messengers taught me how to maintain goodness in the face of these sins, I don't follow any satanic caller.
    Alhamdoillah.
    My shining example of this my beloved peity prophet Yousf or -what you called him jospeh- and how he ignored the invition of the woman who sought to seduce him.
    Furhmore, he was asking god to save him from her.
    In Quran,which means: “And if You do not avert from me their plan, I might incline toward them
    and [thus] be of the ignorant.’” [Yoosuf: 33]
    Allaah responds to the supplications of the righteous. Allaah says in the thirtyfourth verse:
    which means: “So his Lord responded to him and averted from him their plan. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” [Yoosuf: 34] He is All-hearing of the supplication,and All-knowing of the situation of the supplicant.
    Well, this doesn't make you sound like a very good person. What does it say about you that the only reason you don't do bad things is because God tells you not to? I don't do bad things because I care about other people and I don't want to hurt them. I don't believe in reward or punishment after death. The reason I don't want to steal, cheat, kill, bully is that they cause harm to other people, and that makes them wrong. That seems like true morality to me. Morality for the sake of personal reward is not true morality.
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    (Original post by roots)
    I've been thinking this too lately. A connection to religion doesn't mean religion was the core reason, look at these two, you have George W Bush who mentions God from time to time and Tony Blair who is supposedly religious.The whole idea that religion has caused all the wars and all the conflict and everyone has died for religion, stuff needs reevaluating.
    It's very essential to dip into the unique crimes of Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and others.
    a Tajik brother and a friend of mine, once mentioned to me some of incredible mistreatment against tajiks Muslim when it was under the occupation of soviet as well as they burn some people alive in Uzbekistan.
    Have a look on Mao Zedong produced and the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match.
    When i heard what he was doing against Muslim Chinese knowledgable scholars there, perhaps it could start you vomiting! :mad:
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    The reason I don't want to steal, cheat, kill, bully is that they cause harm to other people, and that makes them wrong. That seems like true morality to me. Morality for the sake of personal reward is not true morality.
    It's educational methoid, then it become a habitual normal morality in your behavior.
    And btw, your rason is mentioned as well in the religion of the creator as a main reason why such things is a sin and immoral.
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    (Original post by Son of Adam)
    It's educational methoid, then it become a habitual normal morality in your behavior.
    And btw, your rason is mentioned as well in the religion of the creator as a main reason why such things is a sin and immoral.
    I don't understand your second sentence
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    I don't understand your second sentence
    sounds like he's saying because bad things hurt people their sins and that's what Allah says....pretty obvious thing to say though.

    Setting yourself on fire hurts...Allah says so to.

    But anyway in all seriousness it does scare me when people say without fear of punishment from God they'd hurt other people. This is why religion is useful, it keeps some immoral people in check.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    sounds like he's saying because bad things hurt people their sins and that's what Allah says....pretty obvious thing to say though.

    Setting yourself on fire hurts...Allah says so to.

    But anyway in all seriousness it does scare me when people say without fear of punishment from God they'd hurt other people. This is why religion is useful, it keeps some immoral people in check.
    They've been taught that without God humans would do bad things. I think it's pretty sad not to have faith in your own mind to work out right from wrong.
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    Well, this doesn't make you sound like a very good person. What does it say about you that the only reason you don't do bad things is because God tells you not to? I don't do bad things because I care about other people and I don't want to hurt them. I don't believe in reward or punishment after death. The reason I don't want to steal, cheat, kill, bully is that they cause harm to other people, and that makes them wrong. That seems like true morality to me. Morality for the sake of personal reward is not true morality.
    Every person, regardless of the religion of his parents, is initially born with what we call Fitrah (see link for detailed explanation), and from a person's fitrah he can also have some sense of right and wrong. It's good to know Atheists, like yourself, who still haven't corrupted their fitrah completely. (I would safely assume you don't find pre-marital sex or alcohol consumption as something wrong, which is already a tampering of your fitrah)

    However, the world we live in today is far from being pure from external forces that tempt you and tamper with your fitrah here and there, and for this reason we will be misguided without the constant reminders and the connection we have with our Creator. You may find it all nice and dandy some times, but what are the guidelines that you can follow when confronted with ethical dilemmas?

    If you don't have a strong foundation of moral code, stress and external temptations can drive you to break them, especially when no-one is watching. You see, religion, as far as Islam is concerned, is not just faith and prayer. Every aspect of daily life is governed and outlined.

    Think of it as a machine you build. Initially it works perfectly, but you have to have the instructions manual and sometimes even detailed schematics and troubleshooting guides to know what to do when something goes wrong. Similarly, we humans are bound to do mistakes, and our desires can take us to where we never imagined. Step by step. One day he's trying out a drug, seemingly harmless to anyone around him, the next he's stealing from his mother's purse because he's gone broke and he cannot resist the addiction.

    We need to have reminders that put us back on the straight path before it's too late. In Islam, al-wiqaya khayron min al'ilaj, meaning "prevention is better than treatment". Yet how many people do not have that embedded in their intuition? How many end up writing their profiles in Alcohol Anonymous when it's already too late? Or spend the rest of their life trying to pay off their debts because they put their life on the line not thinking twice as they flick the cards on the poker table? Or find themselves addicted to a drug not thinking twice as the puff their first smoke? Or find themselves at the hospital, shamelessly, asking for an abortion because they can't remember who was the father in that drunken environment?

    Interestingly, the word "fisq" in Arabic, which means to transgress the boundaries of Allah, comes from the Bedouin phrase, "fasaqat al-rotabah" meaning, the ripe date has opened (literal translation). It refers to the stage in ripening of the date when the seed starts to exit the protective layers surrounding it. Similarly, Allah has put all these boundaries for us as a protection from harm. Don't do this, and do that. And you commit fisq by exiting these boundaries that Allah has put (e.g. eating excessively, taking what is not yours, killing the innocent soul etc...). When your boss at work gives you orders or when you are surrounded by all these rules at your workplace, some of which you may not fully understand, is this insulting your intelligence? No, but our nature as humans is to sometimes forget or to overlook things and hence we need these constant reminders.

    That's why, one of the names that refer to the revelations of Allah, besides the Scripture, the Book, is "Al-thikr" meaning "The (ultimate) Reminder".

    We are an intelligent creation, yes, but we have our limits and our imperfections. We can use our intelligence to understand the wisdom behind the rules Allah has put for us, but our forgetfulness needs the reminders, and also people can use their intelligence for evil actions.

    I am not saying that all Muslims nowadays are the most perfect of people. That cannot be further from the truth. But the only reason why the Muslim world today as at the state it's in is because we are the furthest we can be from practicing our religion.

    (edited)
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    (Original post by nolongerhearthemusic)
    They've been taught that without God humans would do bad things. I think it's pretty sad not to have faith in your own mind to work out right from wrong.
    Exactly. Some humans are good, some are bad, a mixture of nurture and possibly nature playing a part too. Religion doesn't fix violence, there have been genocides in the name of religion, in fact all it does is help justify and acts of evil people. Some humans are always going to be immoral, I mean take a Catholic priest who molests children. I'm sure he is a strong Catholic, I'm sure he dislikes homosexuality, abortion etc, and yet it hasn't stopped him being immoral.

    Humanism makes the most sense. We only have one life, we should be kind to one another to make our existence positive and work to further the advancement of our species, both technologically and socially.
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    (Original post by ~ABR~)
    The difference between the Islamic history and the Western history is that the Islamic history was at it's peak and golden age more than 5 centuries ago where we were at our utmost of applying Islam, whereas the West just started to advance 2 centuries ago. We look at our history and the teachings of our Prophet as guidance, but you look at the dark ages as mistakes to not be repeated.
    I assume your not saying the West's way is somehow wrong? Also you could say Europe has had golden ages before, for example the Roman Empire.

    And learning from mistakes shows wisdom, we now understand women are not objects, gays should not be killed etc. It is technically worse for a nation to have had a glorious past which has somehow collapsed and not recovered all that well, then a nation which has steadily(even if more slowly then other nations) advanced.

    It's just I was confused as to why you included the last paragraph, it seems irrelevant.
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    (Original post by joey11223)

    It's just I was confused as to why you included the last paragraph, it seems irrelevant.
    You're right. I removed it. It diverts from the topic.
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    (Original post by ~ABR~)
    You're right. I removed it. It diverts from the topic.
    Ok then.

    I'll still stick with the fact some(by a mix of nature, nurture, possibly even hormone levels.) humans are more inclined to be "evil" then others. We can see that religious people are just as immoral as Atheists. In fact there was a study in America and even taking into account the fact there are more Christians then Atheists(so I guess working out if say 80% are religious and 20% aren't.), the prison population has a higher ratio of religious people to Atheists.

    Whether you think we all have a pre-programmed morality from God or whether being moral is simply an advantage for a communal species, is up to you.:yep:
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    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    Those damn atheists and their scriptures telling them to be viole-

    Waiiiit
    QFT. China is a bad example of Atheism. Just like Northern Ireland is a bad example of Christianity. In general, religion does not lead to long term peace.
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    How exactly is consuming alcohol and pre-martial sex 'wrong' if you don't believe in a religion which dictates so?

    Alcohol in moderation (like anything) is not bad for you, it's even been suggested that wine is beneficial to the body.

    As for pre-martial sex, who gives a ****? It's a personal, case by case situation. If you want to wait till you find 'the one', or at least someone special - great, if not - it's up to them.
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    (Original post by ~ABR~)
    Every person, regardless of the religion of his parents, is initially born with what we call Fitrah (see link for detailed explanation), and from a person's fitrah he can also have some sense of right and wrong. It's good to know Atheists, like yourself, who still haven't corrupted their fitrah completely. (I would safely assume you don't find pre-marital sex or alcohol consumption as something wrong, which is already a tampering of your fitrah)
    Please explain how these are wrong. If you intend to use an argument along the lines of "my holy book says so/my god decrees it", don't you then have to accept the same argument from someone else with a different book? Suppose a Satanist has a book of their beliefs that insists they should kill people, take huge amounts of drugs, have a lot of sex (I have no idea whether this is remotely true or not). Then surely I have to give equal weight to both your arguments? There is no way I can (as an atheist) make a decision when you have mutually exclusive claims of equal strength.
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    (Original post by Alive)
    Suppose a Satanist has a book of their beliefs that insists they should kill people, take huge amounts of drugs, have a lot of sex (I have no idea whether this is remotely true or not). Then surely I have to give equal weight to both your arguments?
    Satanism is about satisfying your desires as long as it doesn't harm anyone. So sex and drugs yes, killing people no.
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    (Original post by ~ABR~)
    The problem with Atheism is that it has no rules to govern it. There is no scripture that can be abused for violence, yes, but at the same time there are NO rules that prohibit killing the innocent either, for example. It's a complete anarchy.
    The problem with theism is that is has rules to govern it. Camus notes that ideology in general does this: it offers people "a perfect alibi: philosophy, which can be used for anything, even for transforming murders into judges." What is worse? No rules, or rules that allow criminals to righteously pursue their crimes?
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    It really depreses me that people feel they are only good because of fear of punishment. Thats not you being moral at all, you can't have morality without free will, and if you are being coerced into acting nicely because of fear of punishment, its not free will. The atheist who does the same actions as the religious person, is more moral because he is only doing them because he feels it is right, not because he feels he has to.
 
 
 
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