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    (Original post by DC Doberman)
    your quote was huge and my post is huge so I deleted it for ease!

    Hmm, this is very long and pretty hard to quote but I'll give it a go!

    No, I think you've totally mistook my comments. I was simply stating that if a seventeen year old with nothng but GCSEs and A Levels has a child, I'm afraid that exams and grades are nothing to prepare a young girl for motherhood, which I think a lot of young people seem to neglect. I believe a lot of young mothers seem to think it's going to be so easy and that they'll be able to pick up where they left off pre-birth, with NO worries, when that's simply not the case. I've been surrounded by young women who have had kids (and encouraged me to do the same since I was sixteen -.-) who live off benefits and spend that money on themselves, neglecting their baby; all they care about is dressing it pretty and going on holidays. Which is a totally wrong sentiment, if you ask me, and is not a life a chld should be leading at all.

    I'm not really sure what you mean by 'not ready' to have a child, because (as heartless as this will make me sound) if I were to get pregnant I would abort it simply because I cannot and will not raise a child in an environment where I can't look after it myself. I do not want to be one of those women who leeches off tax payers and lives in a ****** council house. I want to get my degree, get into a job where I can be financially secure, own my own home and car, have a long term partner and when we are both prepared to have kids, then I'll have one. So yeah, I guess I would be in favour of a law that states women can abort if they're not ready. I also thnk I should say: I don't agree with abortion as a form of contraception, I don't agree with people who say "Oh, I'll have an abortion if I get pregnant, no bother" because I find them simply abhorrent. Nor do I think a woman should be encouraged to keep a child as the result of rape, because that's disgusting too. Also, I don't agree that people should be given the option of abortion if their child will have something wrong with its health or whatever, if the child can still lead a normal life but will be a bit extra hard work...if you get me? I suppose I'd have to think about it if the child was going to be born with a life threatening disease or condition...

    How do you know when a child can respond to its environment or feel pain? Your perception of pain will have changed the older you got. Maybe, when you're in the womb, you don't understand anything until you're physically taught, no? Your fears etc will have been a result of the fears of your parents or surroundings as you grew up. I'm scared of spiders, so is my mum, I have a slight form of OCD, so does my mum, but that I have been brought up with that and physically learned it through my own experiences growing up, POST birth, so how do you know? I'm not saying a foetus doesn't, but how can you simply assume?

    You're right in saying that all children deserve to be born and to live etc, but I am just wondering why you are seemingly neglecting the woman in this? I've stated many a times that it's not easy for a woman to abort her child, it's heartbreaking even to witness (there is an earlier post to the pink mobile lady with the details) it's not as if someone goes OH! I know, abortion!! And you go down with a group of friends, have a cup of tea feel a slight discomfort and POOSH you're better. It's a horrible horrible thing to go through, I imagine...it was heartbreaking to witness so I'd hate to think what it physically feels like. No matter what your stance is on abortion, it's not really fair to condemn women for their choice though, is it?


    I also don't know if you truly grasp what I mean by the emotional connection. A mother would understand and from what I've been told, that runs so much deeper... I mean a mother is physically and emotionally connected to a child from day one in the womb (umbilical cord for example) where as a father isn't. I'm not saying that a woman should totally ignore the desires of a man whether he wants it or not, but I by no means believe he should say 'look I want it, you're keeping it' or try to persuade her otherwise, because at the end of the day it's her body. And even, as you suggest, with the option of abortion, I'm sure that would be even more painful knowing that your child who you've seen and heard take its firth breath and cry etc, is going to be raised by someone else. I reiterate: It's not an easy decision at all.

    And you're welcome, I'm sorry
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    (Original post by God of War)
    I don't see that poster condoning rape at all. You are putting words into other peoples mouths. It's not the fault of the baby that he/she was created via rape. What about the basic human rights of that baby?
    Surely if your mother had told you that you were born as a result of rape that would be the must emotionally detrimental thing you could hear? I'm not sure how much any of you care about your mothers but I'd detest myself if that was the case. I believe that a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape has more of a right to abort a baby than anyone else. It's one thing consensually having sex with someone and your contraceptive not working, or whatever, but being physically and I imagine mentally abused by someone you don't know or love...why would you want to have a child with that person? It's a sick sick sentiment.
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    I'm pro-choice because if illegal, the problem wont go away anyways, it means people will have awful back-street abortions. Or if they keep the child, it wont be loved and it wont grow up in the right environment.

    Just like people should have the choice of using contraception, they should also be able to choose to abort an unwanted child. If I were a woman, I'd have it done - apparently I'm the only one of my friends who feels that way, which suprised me.
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    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    Surely if your mother had told you that you were born as a result of rape that would be the must emotionally detrimental thing you could hear? I'm not sure how much any of you care about your mothers but I'd detest myself if that was the case. I believe that a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape has more of a right to abort a baby than anyone else. It's one thing consensually having sex with someone and your contraceptive not working, or whatever, but being physically and I imagine mentally abused by someone you don't know or love...why would you want to have a child with that person? It's a sick sick sentiment.
    Yes I would be pretty shocked and upset thats for sure but no way would I want to end my life over it. Thats what you would want isn't it? To deprive someone of life because they were created through rape. I'm sure eventually I would be able to get over it through counselling etc and besides I (if i was made through rape) should not feel any guilt over something I have no control over.

    I know what you mean rape is awful and wrong, no doubt about it. However isn't it also sick to kill a life form just to suit the mother? (that is essentially what abortion is). On the balance of things - on the one hand you have the mother and emotional pain it may cause bringing a baby into the world she does not want (hey she could give it up for adoption) and on the other hand you have an innocent life. I think there is a lot more weight towards the innocent life I'am afraid. Can I ask you which do you truely value more? Surely psychological damage is much less serious than murder?
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    I'm pro-choice because if illegal, the problem wont go away anyways, it means people will have awful back-street abortions. Or if they keep the child, it wont be loved and it wont grow up in the right environment.

    Just like people should have the choice of using contraception, they should also be able to choose to abort an unwanted child. If I were a woman, I'd have it done - apparently I'm the only one of my friends who feels that way, which suprised me.
    If they dont want kids then they shouldn't have had sex. It's time adults took some responsibility.
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    (Original post by God of War)
    Yes I would be pretty shocked and upset thats for sure but no way would I want to end my life over it. Thats what you would want isn't it? I'm sure eventually I would be able to get over it through counselling etc and besides I (if i was made through rape) should not feel any guilt over something I have no control over.

    I know what you mean rape is awful and wrong, no doubt about it. However isn't it also sick to kill a life form just to suit the mother? (that is essentially what abortion is).
    Would I want to kill myself if I was the product of rape? I imagine so seen as I am a victim of rape and wanted to kill myself when it happened. I suppose if you haven't been through it you don't really know. But then again, each to his own I wouldn't dream of telling someone to kill themselves simply because they are a product of rape, but for me I would not want my child to resemble the face of the smug ****** who hurt me at fifteen. :rolleyes:

    Also, abortion definitely isn't a get out of motherhood free card for women. Fair enough, I imagine there's a small section of tiny minded women, too stupid to use contraception and therefore think abortion is an easy route, when in fact it isnt. It's not a question of saying "oh I'm going to have an abortion then after we'll go out on the piss, yeah?" because it's just not as easy as that, it's heartbreaking to the woman going through it, just as it is the people who go through it with her (friends, family etc) it's an extremely difficult decision to make and for you to suggest that those who have abortions consider it for a split second and then say 'ah yeah might as well' is pretty ridiculous.
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    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    Would I want to kill myself if I was the product of rape? I imagine so seen as I am a victim of rape and wanted to kill myself when it happened.I'am very sorry about that. However you are glad to be alive aren't you? Yes part of your genes are that of a complete scum bag - but I bet you are not a scumbag at all! If your mother had aborted then you would never have existed? Think hard because surely parts of life you are extremely grateful for? You did not kill yourself because I suspect deep down somewhere even though you may not admit it - part of you values life and all that is in it - for example friends, hobbies, the things you enjoy!!! I suppose if you haven't been through it you don't really know. But then again, each to his own I wouldn't dream of telling someone to kill themselves simply because they are a product of rape, but for me I would not want my child to resemble the face of the smug ****** who hurt me at fifteen. :rolleyes:

    Also, abortion definitely isn't a get out of motherhood free card for women. It shouldn't be.Fair enough, I imagine there's a small section of tiny minded women, too stupid to use contraception and therefore think abortion is an easy route, when in fact it isnt. It's not a question of saying "oh I'm going to have an abortion then after we'll go out on the piss, yeah?" because it's just not as easy as that, it's heartbreaking to the woman going through it, just as it is the people who go through it with her (friends, family etc) it's an extremely difficult decision to make and for you to suggest that those who have abortions consider it for a split second and then say 'ah yeah might as well' is pretty ridiculous.
    I'm sure it is pretty hard decision to make never did I doubt it. I'am arguing though that the possability of getting pregnant is a consequence of sex and if you can't handle that then perhaps you should not have sex.
    Argh you replied when I was doing some editing to my post - can you read the edit? New answers in bold in your quote.
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    (Original post by God of War)
    Argh you replied when I was doing some editing to my post - can you read the edit? New answers in bold in your quote.

    Oh dear, I think you totally misunderstood my post! My mother didn't get raped and I was the result of it, dear God no! My parents were married and very much in love. Haha. I'm not a scum bag though, you're right

    No it was me who was raped, and it was I who wanted to kill myself as a result of that, not because my mother revealed to me that my daddy raped her, my God! Haha, oh dear. Is it wrong to find your mistake funny even if it does concern my parents? >_<

    You're not actually suggesting people should avoid having sex if they don't want babies? That's a bit extreme.. I don't think we should be told to ignore your basic instincts and desires because we don't want children: isn't that what conctraceptives are for? Even if there is a mistake and you know about it, there's always the option of the morning after pill. Your argument is flawed in that respect, and if even if someone does get pregnant as a result of sex its not right of anyone to tell them they should keep a baby. It may be selfish, you're right it probably is, but aborting a child legally and quickly (if you read some of my other posts I think I've made my opinion on the margains very clear) is far better than making it illegal and having the death of a woman on your hands as well as the "death" if you wish to call it that, of a foetus.
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    (Original post by God of War)
    If they dont want kids then they shouldn't have had sex. It's time adults took some responsibility.
    But with contraception, there are other functions to sex now besides childbirth, though sadly contraception is not 100% effective.

    You may well only want sex for childbirth, and thats fine - but thats a social value that only a minority today hold. I don't believe it should be illegal to have a different set of morals and values to you (especially when you're in the vast minority) - you can disapprove of it all you like, but that doesn't mean its right to actually make it illegal to have abortions.

    You're also failing to address the issue of backstreet abortion.
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    (Original post by God of War)
    If they dont want kids then they shouldn't have had sex. It's time adults took some responsibility.

    thats crap, if sex is simply for reproduction then why do we feel pleasure from it? humans are one of very few animals that do. (For example gerbils only mate to make babies)

    Also I don't know if you've heard of Clitoris? Because every human female has one, and guess what, its purpose is solely for sexual pleasure.

    So of course people can have sex if they don't want kids! as long as they use protection.
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    Meh, sex is sex.... Anyone that gets knocked up because they either weren't responsible enough or just plain unlucky should have the opportunity to do what is right for them as an individual....

    Im pro-choice and I was raised in a catholic school for 14 years of my life for a bit of contrast, although using abortion as a form of contraception in theory is complete ******** and these people are idiots.
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    (Original post by farhan)
    Haha, a South African who's pro-apartheid? Well I never
    Hahaa the irony!
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    (Original post by Alice._-)
    thats crap, if sex is simply for reproduction then why do we feel pleasure from it? humans are one of very few animals that do. (For example gerbils only mate to make babies)

    Also I don't know if you've heard of Clitoris? Because every human female has one, and guess what, its purpose is solely for sexual pleasure.

    So of course people can have sex if they don't want kids! as long as they use protection.
    Dont be a fool. Sex was made to be pleasurable because it ensured that humans would have sex and continue to have sex thus ensuring the survival of the species!
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    But with contraception, there are other functions to sex now besides childbirth, though sadly contraception is not 100% effective.

    You may well only want sex for childbirth, and thats fine - but thats a social value that only a minority today hold. I don't believe it should be illegal to have a different set of morals and values to you (especially when you're in the vast minority) - you can disapprove of it all you like, but that doesn't mean its right to actually make it illegal to have abortions.

    You're also failing to address the issue of backstreet abortion.
    Backstreet abortion can be stopped by treating such people as murderers (which they are). Life in prison I think will be a strong enough deterrent.
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    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    Oh dear, I think you totally misunderstood my post! My mother didn't get raped and I was the result of it, dear God no! My parents were married and very much in love. Haha. I'm not a scum bag though, you're right

    No it was me who was raped, and it was I who wanted to kill myself as a result of that, not because my mother revealed to me that my daddy raped her, my God! Haha, oh dear. Is it wrong to find your mistake funny even if it does concern my parents? >_<

    You're not actually suggesting people should avoid having sex if they don't want babies? That's a bit extreme.. I don't think we should be told to ignore your basic instincts and desires because we don't want children: isn't that what conctraceptives are for? Even if there is a mistake and you know about it, there's always the option of the morning after pill. Your argument is flawed in that respect, and if even if someone does get pregnant as a result of sex its not right of anyone to tell them they should keep a baby. It may be selfish, you're right it probably is, but aborting a child legally and quickly (if you read some of my other posts I think I've made my opinion on the margains very clear) is far better than making it illegal and having the death of a woman on your hands as well as the "death" if you wish to call it that, of a foetus.
    Woooooooops lol still I'am sorry that you have been raped. If we are going to talk about basic instincts and desires then contraceptives are actually contrary to the natural order of things. The reason why we even have a sex drive is because it is a basic instinct derived from evolution as a highly effective way to ensure that we reproduce - thus ensuring the survival of the species! As for your next point I dispute this - on the balance of things - you have the selfish desires and psychological needs of the pregnant woman (even you agreed it is selfish ) (and even the man who made her pregnant) balanced against the life of someone who is completly innocent (it is not the life forms fault that he appeared it is the fault of outside circumstances). Whenever I balance these out - life always comes first. How can it not? That always seems like the moral thing to do.

    As for your next point: the death of a woman and the death of a foetus - it is death because it is a life form although it is very much still reliant on the woman! If the woman's life is in danger because of the baby (think medical complications) that is the only circumstance I would say the mother should be able to legally terminate because it makes no sense for there to be two deaths when one life can be saved!
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    (Original post by God of War)
    Woooooooops lol still I'am sorry that you have been raped. If we are going to talk about basic instincts and desires then contraceptives are actually contrary to the natural order of things. The reason why we even have a sex drive is because it is a basic instinct derived from evolution as a highly effective way to ensure that we reproduce - thus ensuring the survival of the species! As for your next point I dispute this - on the balance of things - you have the selfish desires and psychological needs of the pregnant woman (even you agreed it is selfish ) (and even the man who made her pregnant) balanced against the life of someone who is completly innocent (it is not the life forms fault that he appeared it is the fault of outside circumstances). Whenever I balance these out - life always comes first. How can it not? That always seems like the moral thing to do.

    As for your next point: the death of a woman and the death of a foetus - it is death because it is a life form although it is very much still reliant on the woman! If the woman's life is in danger because of the baby (think medical complications) that is the only circumstance I would say the mother should be able to legally terminate because it makes no sense for there to be two deaths when one life can be saved!

    It's okay! I got over it, eventually.

    The purpose of having sex, traditionally, as the bible suggests, is that two people ought to have sex solely in order to reproduce. Nothing is said about pleasure or making love with one another to express love, as it is a more modern notion, and in my opinion, a correct one. Just as one is supposed to respect religion, I feel that religion ought to respect its followers. I also believe that an increase in athiesm is a result of the Church's simple neglegence to accept anything other than tradition; stating that a woman's role in life is to reproduce and look after her family is wrong, because it simply isn't true. Generations ago, perhaps, but in modern times a woman shouldn't have to be forced into a life of motherhood and domestic servitude when she lives in a society that allows her to live to her full potential. Of course, I'm not suggesting that it is wrong to do so, but she should have the choice. Therefore, it is also wrong of you to say that contraceptives are going against the natural order; your opinion is valid (and seems to me like a painfully traditional biblical remark), but without contraceptives there would be a greater influx in population (resulting ultimately in over population...which would lead to suffering, surely?) and a further increase of sexually transmitted diseases...which again would lead to suffering. I don't think using contraceptives would in any way jeopardise the survival of the species either :p:

    Also you say that our basic instincs are a highly effective way to ensure we reproduce...isn't basic instinct, leading to sex the ONLY way to reproduce? hehe.

    I don't agree that my desires are in an way selfish as I have no actual desire to abort a child at all. Your statement seems to suggest I want to get pregnant, simply so I can abort. I know you didn't mean that (or at least I hope you didn't) but I thought I'd point out that abortion has nothing at all to do with desire! I don't think psycological needs come into it either, but I'm not really sure what you meant by that so I'll refrain from commenting.

    The life of someone who is innocent... true, but that foetus hasn't lived yet so how can it be truly innocent? Surely experience can only dictate whether one is innocent or not? I get your sentiment and of course I sympathise towards it, but your methods of arguing seem to be that by making someone feel guilty, they will begin to think like you, as opposed to my arguments which don't say abortion is right or wrong, simply that it is sometimes necessary in difficult situations and, what I think, is fully within a woman's rights.

    I agree that the life of a woman and her foetus should be saved, but in the scenario where abortioins are illegalised and a woman resorts to back street methods: unsterilised equipment being used by someone who has little to no experience in the delicacies of the matter: only illness and sometimes death can occur. Whether or not you think abortion is wrong, surely doing it in a sterilised environment, by people who are fully trained is a better option? I'm not asking you to condone abortion, simply choosing which sounds more humane for the woman
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    (Original post by Alice._-)
    thats crap, if sex is simply for reproduction then why do we feel pleasure from it? humans are one of very few animals that do. (For example gerbils only mate to make babies)

    Also I don't know if you've heard of Clitoris? Because every human female has one, and guess what, its purpose is solely for sexual pleasure.

    So of course people can have sex if they don't want kids! as long as they use protection.
    Haha! I laughed out loud at that! Touche madame
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    (Original post by God of War)
    Dont be a fool. Sex was made to be pleasurable because it ensured that humans would have sex and continue to have sex thus ensuring the survival of the species!

    wow, clearly you aint getting any ;D
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    (Original post by Alice._-)
    wow, clearly you aint getting any ;D
    Well, that is what sexual pleasure is for...
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    Why should the Government rule that women cannot have a medical procedure performed on them because some people think it's immoral?
 
 
 
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