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Abortion: yay or nay? watch

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    I have no idea what the hell you are doing changing what you've written every 5 minutes...
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I have no idea what the hell you are doing changing what you've written every 5 minutes...
    Going back to what you said earlier, how do you know that people who support a woman's right to bodily integrity will react with horror at the suggestion that it's OK for a fetus to be aborted? Surely the reason why they are pro-choice is because they realise that the world is complex and a woman's interests can trump that of a fetus which has no interests or aspirations, no?
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    Going back to what you said earlier, how do you know that people who support a woman's right to bodily integrity will react with horror at the suggestion that it's OK for a fetus to be aborted? Surely the reason why they are pro-choice is because they realise that the world is complex and a woman's interests can trump that of a fetus which has no interests or aspirations, no?
    I never said that, I said any child between the age of 3 and 10 will recognise a 3 month old fetus as a baby, and recoil in horror if you suggested you wanted to smash its skull in.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I never said that, I said any child between the age of 3 and 10 will recognise a 3 month old fetus as a baby, and recoil in horror if you suggested you wanted to smash its skull in.
    As I'm sure you know, the vast majority of people in the Lone Star State support the death penalty. However, I can assure you that if you ask those people who support the death penalty where they'd like to personally smash the skull of a person on death row, most, if not all, people would recoil in horror and reject your offer.

    Does this mean that the death penalty is 'objectively' wrong? No, it does not.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    As I'm sure you know, the vast majority of people in the Lone Star State support the death penalty. However, I can assure you that if you asked those people who supported the death penalty where they'd like to personally smash the skull of a person on death row most, if not all, people would recoil in horror and reject your offer.

    Does this mean that the death penalty is 'objectively' wrong?
    I think making them have a hands on approach witht heir corporal punishment would be a good idea, it might make them end it. I don't agree with the death penalty anyway.
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    Pro choice.
    Pro good sex ed. in school.
    Pro proper use of contraception.

    (As a note, I've found more than a few times some pro life people who deem abortion 'murder' also make snide remarks about girls under twenty with infants...just food for thought.)
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I think making them have a hands on approach witht heir corporal punishment would be a good idea, it might make them end it. I don't agree with the death penalty anyway.
    The point is that your emotive arguments aren't going to get us anywhere.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    The point is that your emotive arguments aren't going to get us anywhere.
    The point is you thought I would be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion, so you thought you had an angle on my morality, but you don't. Murder is really all about emotion... I suggest you stop trying to be clever.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The point is you thought I would be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion, so you thought you had an angle on my morality, but you don't.
    No, I didn't think that you would be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion. The point I was making was valid whether you're pro or anti-death penalty.

    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I suggest you stop trying to be clever.
    I suggest you start trying to be clever because your emotive arguments aren't even worthy of consideration.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    I suggest you start trying to be clever because your emotive arguments aren't even worthy of consideration.
    Then why did you reply?

    My main reasons for being pro-life are the following:

    1. A fetus is a full fledged member of the human community from the point of conception, it is therefore wrong to kill them, just like any other member of the community.

    2. Abortion is harming women more than not having abortion ever did.

    3. It gives women an unequal right over the life of a child that is not only theirs.
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    I think women should have a right for choice whether to leave a child or not. As for me, i'm against cuz it is harmful for women's health. So i think over prevention before having sex not after it. :rolleyes:

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    I'm for it being legal, though am against it on a personal level.

    Additionally, I think if we allow abortion, we should shift the emphasis toward chemical abortions (abortions done much earlier on in the pregnancy via chemical means) as opposed to later when the baby actually has to be removed by a doctor.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    You can't just tell someone who regards abortion to be murder to piss off and mind their own business. For this reason, we have to protect the right of women to seek an abortion by alternative arguments.

    Abortion is never murder in a country where abortion is legal. Murder is described as an unlawful killing, if abortion is legal, whether you think it is killing or not, it is not unlawful so therefore it is not murder.

    After clearing that one up, i wasn't going to tell someone against abortion to 'piss off and mind their own business', but rather, ask them why they think their view is so important on the matter that it must be applied to every single woman everywhere, whether they share that view or not.
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    (Original post by jadalewis)
    I think women should have a right for choice whether to leave a child or not. As for me, i'm against cuz it is harmful for women's health. So i think over prevention before having sex not after it.
    So you think the best way to get people to be over preventative before having sex is to offer them a really easy get out clause?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Then why did you reply?

    My main reasons for being pro-life are the following:

    1. A fetus is a full fledged member of the human community from the point of conception, it is therefore wrong to kill them, just like any other member of the community.

    2. Abortion is harming women more than not having abortion ever did.

    3. It gives women an unequal right over the life of a child that is not only theirs.
    I am pro choice because,
    1) I don't believe that a fetus is a full member of human society.

    2) Drinking harms people too, people drink drive and harm not only themselves but others, infact one could argue that drink driving and alcohol abuse in general harms more people than abortion does, are you against alcohol being legal too?

    3) Your third point is trickier to address. It is true that a woman does have an unequal right over the fetus that is growing inside them, however if abortion is illegal, it would give a fetus an unequal right over the mother. The way i see it, it is fairer to have a mother, who is undoubtedly a fully grown human being, to have rights over the fetus, than to have a fetus, where it is arguable whether it is a full member of society and is even equal to it's mother, to have rights over her.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    I am pro choice because,
    1) I don't believe that a fetus is a full member of human society.

    2) Drinking harms people too, people drink drive and harm not only themselves but others, infact one could argue that drink driving and alcohol abuse in general harms more people than abortion does, are you against alcohol being legal too?

    3) Your third point is trickier to address. It is true that a woman does have an unequal right over the fetus that is growing inside them, however if abortion is illegal, it would give a fetus an unequal right over the mother. The way i see it, it is fairer to have a mother, who is undoubtedly a fully grown human being, to have rights over the fetus, than to have a fetus, where it is arguable whether it is a full member of society and is even equal to it's mother, to have rights over her.
    1. What differentiates a fetus from humans?

    2. You're fine to harm yourself, the point is the idea that abortion prevents harm is a fallacy.

    3. The baby doesn't have rights over her, it has a right to existence, which makes it equal to her. After 9 months she can give it away and continue with her life. Men do not have the option of abortion, nor do they have the option of signing a piece of paper to refuse ownership of the child, meaning they are financially liable until the child is 18, which is unfair.
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    I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm pro-choice but I believe the time limit should be lowered. Other countries in Europe have a limit as low as 12-14 weeks but ours is 22 I think? Babies have been born at that age and lived, so yeah
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    1. What differentiates a fetus from humans?

    2. You're fine to harm yourself, the point is the idea that abortion prevents harm is a fallacy.

    3. The baby doesn't have rights over her, it has a right to existence, which makes it equal to her. After 9 months she can give it away and continue with her life. Men do not have the option of abortion, nor do they have the option of signing a piece of paper to refuse ownership of the child, meaning they are financially liable until the child is 18, which is unfair.
    1) A fetus does not have relationships with other people like humans do, it does not have any memories or thoughts, and legally speaking, is not the same as a human being.

    2) Drinking doesn't only harm the one who's doing it either. I wasn't arguing that abortion prevents harm. I was arguing that there are other things in society which cause harm and are perfectly legal. Are you against drinking too?

    3) No, it means that for 9 months the fetus has a right over the mother. The mother cannot get rid of something which is growing in her body, and for 9 months will have to accommodate the needs of the fetus. By not allowing the woman to abort the fetus, you are taking away a woman's right to her own body. My right to existence is equal to the mother's right to existence, however, i am not using the mothers body to fulfill my right, if i did, and she lost some of her rights for me to be able to do that, i would consider it to be that i had rights over her.
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    (Original post by Deano88)
    I agree with the fact that a lot of people are in denial about the situation the woman is in for probably the vast majority of abortion cases. As it stands, the law allows people to have an easy way out. Obviously everyone makes silly mistakes once in a while, but it does get to a point where enough is enough and the girl should have to deal with the consequences of her actions, whether that be raising the child herself, or having it adopted by one of the thousands of couples out there that are unable t have kids of their own.

    However, i have spoken to people in the past with quite extreme pro choice views, who i'm sure are fully aware of the real situation of most abortion cases and still aren't really bothered. As you said they believe that a woman should have full control over her own reproduction.

    P.S I'm not sure what part was meant for me at all. But on the whole I agree with you.
    The first paragraph was mainly for you. But yeah people will downplay responsibility by saying that consent to sex does not mean consent to childbirth despite the possibility that can arise. Guess it's no different from smokers suing cigarette companies for giving them cancer. I just see abortion as a more bigger picture to violence as a whole. Even if you do not consider the fetus as a legally protected being and an entity in its own right, it is, by the very nature, a violent act.
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    I'm from N.Ire where abortion is illegal and the majority are christian and pro-life. So I got pretty angry about that and felt it was a woman's right to choose what she can or cannot do with her body, especially in circumstances of rape.

    When I went to England for uni, I was almost shocked at how relaxed everyone is about abortion. And it made me think a little harder. I've always said that I personally couldn't put myself through abortion, I think it would be too difficult to deal with (maybe that's the Irish guilt coming through) and I probably couldn't live with myself after.

    I also think that I definitely couldn't have an abortion after about 3 months of being pregnant. It looks too much like a baby (from friends' scans and stuff), and I know I definitely couldn't do it at that stage.

    When I heard about a friend of a friend having an abortion at 4 or 5 months, where they had to cut the foetus/baby out because it was so big, I thought "there's something wrong here". I felt a bit disgusted at that. Considering her reasons weren't for health or the health of the baby or anything.

    It's a very sensitive and personal issue I think. I personally think the abortion limit should be slightly reduced by a few weeks in the UK and have something more similar to some European countries. I also think people should take some responsibility. Accidents happen, but some people could probably be a bit more careful. If you're responsible enough to have sex then you should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences.
 
 
 
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