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    (Original post by EbonyG)
    Pro choice.
    Pro good sex ed. in school.
    Pro proper use of contraception.

    (As a note, I've found more than a few times some pro life people who deem abortion 'murder' also make snide remarks about girls under twenty with infants...just food for thought.)
    That doesn't surprise me. When I was seventeen I was with a female friend looking after a kid of another (was a friend of hers) and the amount of evil looks she and I (mostly her) got from oncoming motorists assuming it was ours. At least young parents have the dignity to carry out the pregnancy, that's the way I have always thought of it.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    Doesn't look like a baby to me.
    The Elephant Man, whether the historic one or the Chinese one, look less human than that foetus you showed.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    1) A fetus does not have relationships with other people like humans do, it does not have any memories or thoughts, and legally speaking, is not the same as a human being.

    2) Drinking doesn't only harm the one who's doing it either. I wasn't arguing that abortion prevents harm. I was arguing that there are other things in society which cause harm and are perfectly legal. Are you against drinking too?

    3) No, it means that for 9 months the fetus has a right over the mother. The mother cannot get rid of something which is growing in her body, and for 9 months will have to accommodate the needs of the fetus. By not allowing the woman to abort the fetus, you are taking away a woman's right to her own body. My right to existence is equal to the mother's right to existence, however, i am not using the mothers body to fulfill my right, if i did, and she lost some of her rights for me to be able to do that, i would consider it to be that i had rights over her.
    1. A disabled person cannot do this either, shall we exterminate them?

    2. Drinking causes less harm whilst it is legal. During prohibition more people died and more people were hurt whilst it was illegal.

    3. Many people throughout society are dependant on us; for instance unemployed people who depend on our taxes to live. They are putting a hinderance on our equal right to existence, can we kill them too? The point is we spend our whole lives accomodating things which aren't our fault, why should something that is 99/100 our fault be an different?
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    1) A fetus does not have relationships with other people like humans do, it does not have any memories or thoughts, and legally speaking, is not the same as a human being.
    Why is the status of the law given specific airtime in this debate? If this was 1990 and this debate was over marital rape I'd have a field day with comments after declaring the state of the law.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    1. A disabled person cannot do this either, shall we exterminate them?

    2. Drinking causes less harm whilst it is legal. During prohibition more people died and more people were hurt whilst it was illegal.

    3. Many people throughout society are dependant on us; for instance unemployed people who depend on our taxes to live. They are putting a hinderance on our equal right to existence, can we kill them too? The point is we spend our whole lives accomodating things which aren't our fault, why should something that is 99/100 our fault be an different?
    1. A disabled person might have a family who love and care for them, they would be known in their society.
    2. I'm sure if abortion was illegal and backstreet abortions were being performed it would endanger the life of the mother too, therefore it causes less harm whilst legal like drinking, although it still 'kills' things, like drinking.
    3. Unemployed people are considered human beings, therefore we cannot kill them. To my mind, even though they are a hindrance on society, they are more human than a fetus and have more rights.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Why is the status of the law given specific airtime in this debate? If this was 1990 and this debate was over marital rape I'd have a field day with comments after declaring the state of the law.
    Is the status of law not important?
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    1. A disabled person might have a family who love and care for them, they would be known in their society.
    2. I'm sure if abortion was illegal and backstreet abortions were being performed it would endanger the life of the mother too, therefore it causes less harm whilst legal like drinking, although it still 'kills' things, like drinking.
    3. Unemployed people are considered human beings, therefore we cannot kill them. To my mind, even though they are a hindrance on society, they are more human than a fetus and have more rights.
    1. A fetus could have a family that loves and cares for them, and wants them to mature into a baby.

    2. Regulated abortion is by no means safe. In fact it is only slightly safer than the dreaded back street abotions we hear so much about. However, many more legal abortions are carried out each year than there would be back street abotions. Therefore more people die. As well as this the future births of the mother are quite often premature. It puts the mother at a higher risk of breast cancer. And finally there is the toll that abortion does on the mental health of the woman; women who have had an abortion are 6 times more likely to commit suicide.

    3. I consider fetus' human beings, in my mind there is no difference and they should be given equal rights. I don't really understand what constitutes being more human. Anyway, the original argument was that the fetus would be equal if it wasn't a hinderance on the mother, so if we're equal to people on benefits and they are a hinderance to us, by your logic we should be able to kill them.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Is the status of law not important?
    The law and morality are not linked in this country at all.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Is the status of law not important?
    Not overly. If we only cited the law in debates such as this we will never have reform. Acknowledging the law is fine but there tends to be a habit of doing it for this topic and not others.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    1. A fetus could have a family that loves and cares for them, and wants them to mature into a baby.

    2. Regulated abortion is by no means safe. In fact it is only slightly safer than the dreaded back street abotions we hear so much about. However, many more legal abortions are carried out each year than there would be back street abotions. Therefore more people die. As well as this the future births of the mother are quite often premature. It puts the mother at a higher risk of breast cancer. And finally there is the toll that abortion does on the mental health of the woman; women who have had an abortion are 6 times more likely to commit suicide.

    3. I consider fetus' human beings, in my mind there is no difference and they should be given equal rights. I don't really understand what constitutes being more human. Anyway, the original argument was that the fetus would be equal if it wasn't a hinderance on the mother, so if we're equal to people on benefits and they are a hinderance to us, by your logic we should be able to kill them.
    1) Or the fetus could have parents who do not love it and do not want it to mature into a baby, with no relationship ties it cannot be seen to be fully human.

    2) Legal drinking is by no mean safe either, it can destroy homes and the fabric of society. Smoking increases the smokers risk of getting lung cancer, being overweight increases one's risk of getting heart disease, should these be illegal too? Every medical procedure carries risks. Even if abortion is only slightly safer when it is performed by a doctor legally, it is still safer.

    3) Not once did i argue that a fetus would be equal to the mother were it not to cause a hinderance to her. I believe that a fetus is not equal to the mother whatever the circumstances. However, i did argue that the fetus would cause a hindrance to the mother if she did not want to be pregnant with it for the full 9 months, i did not argue that if it was not a hinderance the fetus would be equal.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Not overly. If we only cited the law in debates such as this we will never have reform. Acknowledging the law is fine but there tends to be a habit of doing it for this topic and not others.
    The law was not the only argument i put forward in this debate about abortion.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The law and morality are not linked in this country at all.
    Then what is law based on, and why are we so accepting of it?
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    1) Or the fetus could have parents who do not love it and do not want it to mature into a baby, with no relationship ties it cannot be seen to be fully human.

    2) Legal drinking is by no mean safe either, it can destroy homes and the fabric of society. Smoking increases the smokers risk of getting lung cancer, being overweight increases one's risk of getting heart disease, should these be illegal too? Every medical procedure carries risks. Even if abortion is only slightly safer when it is performed by a doctor legally, it is still safer.

    3) Not once did i argue that a fetus would be equal to the mother were it not to cause a hinderance to her. I believe that a fetus is not equal to the mother whatever the circumstances. However, i did argue that the fetus would cause a hindrance to the mother if she did not want to be pregnant with it for the full 9 months, i did not argue that if it was not a hinderance the fetus would be equal.
    1. OK, so what if the parents of a disabled child don't care about it?

    2. Abortions legality affects the amount of people that use it. If 2% of illegal abortions ended in death and there are 1,000 carried out that is 20 people dead. If 1% of legal abortions end in death and 200,000 are carried out that is 2,000 people dead. So that's more deaths. If the mental and physical scars of the procedure are identical then a far higher amount of people will carry problems with them when the procedure was carried out legally. Alcohol on the other hand was more widely used and more lethal when it was illegal.

    3. You argued that it was the hinderance that made it unequal. Nothing else makes it unequal to a human's we don't kill. 3 things differentiate a fetus from a human; size, level of development, and degree of dependancy. Size: Is a person of 6ft in stature worth more than someone who is 5 ft?
    Level of development: Teenagers are remarkably less developed than adults, and todlers are remarkably less developed than adults, and premature babies are remarkably less developed than on time babies. Does that make them any less human?
    Degree of dependancy: Do you suddenly become less of a human if you break your spine?
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Then what is law based on, and why are we so accepting of it?
    I meant that the law is not based on morality in my view. Abortions only became legal after an over inflated estimation of the amount of women having illegal abortions. If this had not happened people would have been less questioning about their view of abortion, and it never would have become legal. Suffice it to say if abortion had not become legal the world over it would not be sought 1% as much as it is now. I on the other hand will not allow the law to dictate my morals, especially when the amount of time you have to get an abortion is just a random figure plucked out of the air and not based on any kind of scientific reasoning as to what changed in the fetus to some how make it regarded a human.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    1. OK, so what if the parents of a disabled child don't care about it?

    2. Abortions legality affects the amount of people that use it. If 2% of illegal abortions ended in death and there are 1,000 carried out that is 20 people dead. If 1% of legal abortions end in death and 200,000 are carried out that is 2,000 people dead. So that's more deaths. If the mental and physical scars of the procedure are identical then a far higher amount of people will carry problems with them when the procedure was carried out legally. Alcohol on the other hand was more widely used and more lethal when it was illegal.

    3. You argued that it was the hinderance that made it unequal. Nothing else makes it unequal to a human's we don't kill. 3 things differentiate a fetus from a human; size, level of development, and degree of dependancy. Size: Is a person of 6ft in stature worth more than someone who is 5 ft?
    Level of development: Teenagers are remarkably less developed than adults, and todlers are remarkably less developed than adults, and premature babies are remarkably less developed than on time babies. Does that make them any less human?
    Degree of dependancy: Do you suddenly become less of a human if you break your spine?

    1) The disabled child is still part of society.

    2) If abortions were illegal more people would choose to have a backstreet abortion, which is far riskier.Therefore if 1,000 people who would have had a legal abortion but are now forced to have an illegal backstreet abortion go through with the procedure, and there is 2% death rate, then 20 women would die, compared with the 1% death rate for legal abortion where only 10 women would have died. What i would suggest, for the metal scars, is more counselling services offered, not to make abortion completely illegal.

    3) I argued that a human with relationship ties, abilities to form relationships and have memories and thoughts was the differences between a fetus and a human too. Therefore even though babies,children and teenagers are obviously less developed than a fully grown adult, they still have these abilities, and are therefore more equal than a fetus.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I meant that the law is not based on morality in my view. Abortions only became legal after an over inflated estimation of the amount of women having illegal abortions. If this had not happened people would have been less questioning about their view of abortion, and it never would have become legal. Suffice it to say if abortion had not become legal the world over it would not be sought 1% as much as it is now. I on the other hand will not allow the law to dictate my morals, especially when the amount of time you have to get an abortion is just a random figure plucked out of the air and not based on any kind of scientific reasoning as to what changed in the fetus to some how make it regarded a human.
    I would argue that the law is in accordance with my morals. However, i have to be off to work now, i will reply to any answer you give when i get home. Although we do not share the same opinion about abortion i would like to thank you so far for the stimulating debate, it has been very enjoyable debating with you, and i will look forward to any replies you send.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    1) The disabled child is still part of society.

    2) If abortions were illegal more people would choose to have a backstreet abortion, which is far riskier.Therefore if 1,000 people who would have had a legal abortion but are now forced to have an illegal backstreet abortion go through with the procedure, and there is 2% death rate, then 20 women would die, compared with the 1% death rate for legal abortion where only 10 women would have died. What i would suggest, for the metal scars, is more counselling services offered, not to make abortion completely illegal.

    3) I argued that a human with relationship ties, abilities to form relationships and have memories and thoughts was the differences between a fetus and a human too. Therefore even though babies,children and teenagers are obviously less developed than a fully grown adult, they still have these abilities, and are therefore more equal than a fetus.
    1. So is a fetus under my definition, as essentially it can't be differentiated from humans.

    2. This is getting ridiculous now. Thousands upon thousands more people have abortions when they are legal than when they are illegal. That is an undeniable fact. Therefore even if legal abortions were 10x safer this would still be cancelled out by the fact that 100x more abortions are carried out.

    3. A premature baby cannot do these things. Neither can some mentally handicapped people, especially Autistics. Are they on par with a fetus and therefore killable? Please don't change your differentiation beween humans and fetus's again, especially if I have already covered it.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    I would argue that the law is in accordance with my morals. However, i have to be off to work now, i will reply to any answer you give when i get home. Although we do not share the same opinion about abortion i would like to thank you so far for the stimulating debate, it has been very enjoyable debating with you, and i will look forward to any replies you send.
    The point was that you cannot quote the law when engaged in a moral debate, all that evidences is that some MPs 40 years ago were tricked into legalising it, which is hardly reversible.
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    I believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not she could bear a baby.
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    (Original post by Botticello)
    I believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not she could bear a baby.
    More often than not they make the wrong choice for them and the child... perhaps such dyer wrong choices shouldn't be made so easy to make in our society?
 
 
 
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