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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Abortion isn't murder, that's where the difference is.
    And since when is the killing of innocent humans not murder?

    Or is it not murder because it's convenient to say that it isn't murder, because it makes people feel better when they get abortions?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    This is the case for you but I bet you if it was found that aborted foetuses were being used for human consumption, by however means, and was reported in the media there will be an outcry; many of whom will be very relaxed with the idea of abortion. I just find that point a tad hypocritical. It's not something I'd try and people would seek criminal action if this happened on the grounds of 'not being nice' but I don't think slaughtering animals is very nice either. It's like this group on Facebook. A petition against the use of dogs as live bait for sharks whilst simultaneously enjoying big, fat juicy burgers and sausages. Because pigs and cows aren't cute and fluffy they're not deemed in the same light. All the same to me, but legalising farming of dogs for meat would be political suicide.
    Is your statement that there would be an outcry from those supporting abortion hypothetical and without supporting evidence or has it actually happened?
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    And since when is the killing of innocent humans not murder?

    Or is it not murder because it's convenient to say that it isn't murder, because it makes people feel better when they get abortions?
    I did find and post a definition earlier on, i will post it again incase you overlooked it. Murder, is defined as the unlawful killing of a human. Abortion is legal in the UK, therefore it is not unlawful, and i don't regard a fetus as a human.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    That is because they have gotten to the point of needing to be siezed from their birth parents. These children have been left with detrimental parents for so long that they have severe problems, and people who want to adopt do not generally feel they can handle these children. There are no printed statistics on the exact number of people who would like to adopt, however there are statistics should give us some guidance:
    http://www.hfea.gov.uk/679.html

    1 in 7 couples has fertility problems. Seeing as the overwhelming majority of people want children, it is fair to assume that many of these couples would adopt if there was a large amount of 'unharmed' babies available.

    Ok then, what about a baby in a coma for a short period of time? Or a premature baby that the parents don't want?

    Detrimental parents? According to http://www.afteradoption.org.uk/page...01000100020011 around 40% of the children in care will return home. The parents cannot be that detrimental if the authorities think it viable to return them home.
    What if the babies which would have been aborted are born and given up for adoption, and the number or babies outweighs the amount of infertile couples? What if infertile couples don't want to adopt but want to go down a different route ie surrogacy? Also, not all infertile couples will get a baby. Surely adoption is about matching parents with children, and finding the children the most suitable parents and homes, which may not always be with infertile couples.

    An unwanted premature baby in a coma where the parents don't want it and it has no ability to think or have any memories? I don't really see the problem in letting it die, especially if it can only exist at someone else's expense.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    I did find and post a definition earlier on, i will post it again incase you overlooked it. Murder, is defined as the unlawful killing of a human. Abortion is legal in the UK, therefore it is not unlawful, and i don't regard a fetus as a human.
    So when Joseph Stalin killed tens of millions of Russian citizens during the 1930s, was that not murder? The government did it, so it was lawful.
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    So when Joseph Stalin killed tens of millions of Russian citizens during the 1930s, was that not murder? The government did it, so it was lawful.
    If it was lawful, under my definition it wouldn't be murder. However, it would still be killing, and not once did i argue that killing humans was justifiable or morally right.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    If it was lawful, under my definition it wouldn't be murder. However, it would still be killing, and not once did i argue that killing humans was justifiable or morally right.
    And do you think that abortion is morally right?
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    And do you think that abortion is morally right?
    I wouldn't say it was either morally wrong nor right. I wouldn't want to impose a law stopping women from having an abortion though.
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    Personally im a big fan of postnatal abortions and think society should adopt this instead of crappy prenatal abortions.
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    I don't have a solid view on it as I feel I couldn't say I think no women should ever have an abortion - because it completely depends on the situation.

    Personally though, I don't think I could have one esp. when It was caused by a mistake by me or my parter with condom/pill or whatever we were using.
    I think I would have to (wo)man-up and do the best to provide for a child, I realise just now I couldn't provide the best life for a child and I know many people use that as an excuse, but in my eyes as long as I provide a happy environment towards the child then I would be a good parent.
    However - If I was raped I would sure as hell think about it. And for that reason abortion would acceptable in my mind for any woman..I've never been raped but if I was and as a result got pregnant I seriously doubt I'd want his child inside me - nevermind raising it - but at the same time, it an innocent child (half of which is my genes..)

    But when I think you shouldn't abort a child (fetus?..) is when you have folk running about willy nilly having sex (unprotected, no use of condoms/the pill or a morning after pill ect..) then when they do end up pregnant just abort it as if it's not a life inside of them (I know plenty don't feel a fetus is a baby yet bla de blah fair enough but it should be something a bit more sacred (I don't know that's the right word to use )

    This might sound a bit weird but I know I couldn't kill the fetus myself - therefore I feel it wrong of me to get someone else to kill it - like I don't eat meat because I feel it wrong to kill and animal, I couldn't kill the animal therefore I wouldn't eat the animal - I'm not saying I eat babies but for me it's kind of the same idea
    But as soon as you're in a situation I'm sure you're head woulf go in a tizz and logical thought would disappear
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Is your statement that there would be an outcry from those supporting abortion hypothetical and without supporting evidence or has it actually happened?
    Well there was a prosecution of an artist who used two aborted foetuses in his work. It was concluded by the courts of law that it was outraging public morals, whatever that was supposed to mean. The artist did this for the same reason with the starving dog, people only gave a **** when exposed to it in their work but loved sticking their heads in the sand for the rest of their lives. Shock tactics like this from artists are not new, though this occured before other artists work such as splitting a cow in two or starving a dog. I'll try and find the case and see if it's reported in the media. If so, then I will look for forums and comments on newspaper sites if you like. I've known people to react against 'lesser' things. For example, there's a stigma of veal being 'cruel' in this country, or so the wife of the PM think so. Judging by that, I'd imagine there would be a reaction if some nutter decided to sell or consume aborted foetuses. The problem if I posted pictures of the situation, people will easily dismiss it as fake because that's what they want to believe. If I showed American military abusing Iraqis there would be more belief, even if a picture was fake.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Well there was a prosecution of an artist who used two aborted foetuses in his work. It was concluded by the courts of law that it was outraging public morals, whatever that was supposed to mean. The artist did this for the same reason with the starving dog, people only gave a **** when exposed to it in their work but loved sticking their heads in the sand for the rest of their lives. Shock tactics like this from artists are not new, though this occured before other artists work such as splitting a cow in two or starving a dog. I'll try and find the case and see if it's reported in the media. If so, then I will look for forums and comments on newspaper sites if you like. I've known people to react against 'lesser' things. For example, there's a stigma of veal being 'cruel' in this country, or so the wife of the PM think so. Judging by that, I'd imagine there would be a reaction if some nutter decided to sell or consume aborted foetuses. The problem if I posted pictures of the situation, people will easily dismiss it as fake because that's what they want to believe. If I showed American military abusing Iraqis there would be more belief, even if a picture was fake.
    In the case whereby the artist used aborted fetuses in his work, there was a clear public outcry from those especially pro choice? Sometimes, some of the chicken eggs we buy have been fertilised, they only haven't grown into chicks because they haven't been kept warm, i haven't seen any public outcry there.
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    I'm pro choice.

    It my body, its my decision. I take my pill everyday, i am responsible. So if i did get pregnant by accident i feel i should have the option of an abortion if i felt that was the right thing to do.

    Right now would be a really bad time to get pregnant as have no job and am mentally unwell, so wouldn't be able to cope with a pregnancy and it wouldn't be fair to bring a child into this world in these circumstances.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    In the case whereby the artist used aborted fetuses in his work, there was a clear public outcry from those especially pro choice?
    Going by the numbers game yes I'd say there were some.

    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Sometimes, some of the chicken eggs we buy have been fertilised, they only haven't grown into chicks because they haven't been kept warm, i haven't seen any public outcry there.
    People don't give a monkeys about chickens though. That's why KFC is so popular. If this country legalised dog and horse meat there would be trouble.
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    (Original post by Sky_Dream)
    Detrimental parents? According to http://www.afteradoption.org.uk/page...01000100020011 around 40% of the children in care will return home. The parents cannot be that detrimental if the authorities think it viable to return them home.
    What if the babies which would have been aborted are born and given up for adoption, and the number or babies outweighs the amount of infertile couples? What if infertile couples don't want to adopt but want to go down a different route ie surrogacy? Also, not all infertile couples will get a baby. Surely adoption is about matching parents with children, and finding the children the most suitable parents and homes, which may not always be with infertile couples.

    An unwanted premature baby in a coma where the parents don't want it and it has no ability to think or have any memories? I don't really see the problem in letting it die, especially if it can only exist at someone else's expense.
    I realise that many children go back, why do you think they are 6x more likley to have children who will also be in care? I have yet to meet anyone in my life who has told me they regret having their children. Pregnancies have not increased in this country but the birth rate has gone down, so all I see is a lot of perfectly healthy babies being flushed down the toilet by parents who would be perfectly happy to have a child. You don't even need to assume that 100% of infertile couples will adopt because most people wouldn't put their children up for adoption, and on top of that people would be more careful about getting pregnant if they had their exit strategy taken away.

    So can I presume you're ok with abortions all the way upto full term? Pretty sickening to be honest.
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    (Original post by xXMessedUpXx)
    I'm pro choice.

    It my body, its my decision. I take my pill everyday, i am responsible. So if i did get pregnant by accident i feel i should have the option of an abortion if i felt that was the right thing to do.

    Right now would be a really bad time to get pregnant as have no job and am mentally unwell, so wouldn't be able to cope with a pregnancy and it wouldn't be fair to bring a child into this world in these circumstances.
    It isn't just your body if you put a baby inside it, is it? If you get pregnant by accident it's your fault so why should the baby take the flak? All of the reasons you list as to why you shouldn't have a baby are reasons you really shouldn't be having sex. Yes sex is pleasurable but its primary function is to have children, so don't be so surprised when you end up having one because of it. If you play with fire you're gonna get burnt, and do you think your mental health will be more or less stable after killing a baby?
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    I'm completely for it. However, I do not agree with having an abortion for an unwanted baby due to a drunken one night stand. I think people should be more aware of themselves and should stop being so selfish. Like the first post said, people that see abortion as a form of 'contraception' - completely wrong. If people don't want children, they should take more care. On the other hand, I believe in abortion in cases (worst case senario here) such as rape. Overall, If a woman wants to abort a baby, she should have the right to.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I realise that many children go back, why do you think they are 6x more likley to have children who will also be in care? I have yet to meet anyone in my life who has told me they regret having their children. Pregnancies have not increased in this country but the birth rate has gone down, so all I see is a lot of perfectly healthy babies being flushed down the toilet by parents who would be perfectly happy to have a child. You don't even need to assume that 100% of infertile couples will adopt because most people wouldn't put their children up for adoption, and on top of that people would be more careful about getting pregnant if they had their exit strategy taken away.

    So can I presume you're ok with abortions all the way upto full term? Pretty sickening to be honest.
    So you're going on the assumption that those who would abort their baby would suddenly want it once they give birth to it? That's an assumption, not fact. It's not a baby, and it's not being flushed down the toilet, it's a fetus. What's wrong with the birth rate going down? The world is overpopulated enough as it is.

    When did i say i was ok with abortions all the way up to full term? You do realise that most abortions are performed in the first trimester, right?
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    I'm against it if it's used as a method of 'contraception'. :|

    Otherwise, I'm Pro-Choice and I don't have any real reason for it, other
    than I hate to have to see children who are either not wanted or are
    unable to have proper financial or emotional care brought into the world.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Going by the numbers game yes I'd say there were some.



    People don't give a monkeys about chickens though. That's why KFC is so popular. If this country legalised dog and horse meat there would be trouble.
    I'm wanting pure facts here, not flimsy assumptions.
    What's the difference between chickens and dogs or horses? Why are horses more important? Why do you view a fertilised chicken egg as unequal to a fertilised egg in a female dog, yet a fertilised human egg is equal to the mother?
 
 
 
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