Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    It's not morally abhorrent because the nation is a bed of similitude. Look, you don't question the rights of other nations to uphold homogeneity. You don't want to force multiculturalism on other nations. Maybe you even support the existence of Israel. All of these are incredibly hypocritical in that you don't care (assuming you're British) about the subversion of your own culture right before you're eyes.
    But you have never described what you mean about the subversion of culture! You've made loose references but haven't actually described comprehensively what these immigrants are doing to subvert our culture so much.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 35mm_)
    It is morally abhorrent because there's no reason to do so. A country is made of arbitrary borders, you don't own the country you were born in, and as such you have no right to ask people to leave simply because their ancestors weren't born here.

    It is about skin colour. Will the BNP be asking Americans to leave?
    Our boarders are not arbitrary, they are hundreds of years old and have evolved over time through diplomacy and the bloodshed of your fellow countryman, its not like someone has sat down and randomly drawn lines on the map. In Europe at least our boarder’s actively signify changes in culture, cultures I would like to protect.

    We and our government have every right to say who and who doesn’t come in, our families built this country and there taxes have paid for it so we should decide who gets in. When you start kicking out 2nd generation immigrants you on shaky ground though
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Considering that many Americans are of indigenous European stock then they probably won't as they revert to being native. One of the criteria for the indigenous population in the BNP consitution is those members of the other groups listed who are distributed across the planet.
    The only thing separating Americans from other ethnic groups that the BNP want to "send home" is skin colour. Can you tell me why it is preferable to have an American living in Britain as opposed to an Indian, for example?
    It's not morally abhorrent because the nation is a bed of similitude. Look, you don't question the rights of other nations to uphold homogeneity. You don't want to force multiculturalism on other nations. Maybe you even support the existence of Israel. All of these are incredibly hypocritical in that you don't care (assuming you're British) about the subversion of your own culture right before you're eyes. When it's threatened also by the impending prospect of indigenous Britons being a minority in their own country within the next 50 years, it's a completely rational position to take.
    I don't support the existence of Israel, no. I am British, yes. My own "culture" is not be subverted, what culture are you talking about? The "British" culture? Please, do define my culture for me. Why does it need preserving? Culture changes over times, always. The British, and I, will not be a minority in 50 years as you claim, that is little more than hysteria.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    It's all well and good for you to come out with the 'they want a homogenous nation so they'd enforce genocide' nonsense, but it's nothing but guesswork on your part. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could treat a political party as though they have some sort of solidified mentality. :confused: Their constitution listing the various subethnicities that constitute indigenous Briton is not really evidence of a 'fixation' - it merely clarifies what they mean by indigenous Briton. The point is that the indigenous populace happen to be white, but not every white person is the indigenous populace. The BNP would allow anyone to use the voluntary resettlement scheme; whether they're French, Polish, Congolese, Chinese, Thai, Chilean etc. It's not an issue solely of skin colour, but of protecting nation ethnic homogeneity. The various references to 'white' on their website and things usually concern anti-white racism, and certain discrimitary schemes led against the white populace. This is just as important an issue as anti-black or anti-Asian racism. If people feel the need to group these together as 'black' and 'Asian' on this issue then grouping as 'white' is hardly a sin. :rolleyes:

    Asking an immigrant to leave a nation for a nationalist would be just as legitimate to ask an unruly lodger to leave your home. There's nothing abhorrent about it unless it amounts to force. Which the BNP have no intention of. And, again, it's not all about skin colour. Cultural Christianity carries little or no connection to spiritual Christianity (and much spiritual Christianity has been modified to adapt to the political climate anyway - that's hardly an argument).
    Asking someone to leave their home, their country, their friends, their job, simply because you don't like their skin colour or ethnicity has nothing to do with people being 'unruly'. Do you even believe your terrible rationalisations? Of course targetting people based on their ethnicity in order to ask them to leave is morally abhorrent regardless of whether force is involved. Are you also going to suggest that making Nazi salutes at Jews leaving a synagogue isn't morally abhorrent because it doesn't involve force? :rolleyes: I also see that your defence of Christianity is so emptied of specific content that it is practically meaningless - trying to have it both ways leaves you with nothing.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Renner)
    Our boarders are not arbitrary, they are hundreds of years old and have evolved over time through diplomacy and the bloodshed of your fellow countryman, its not like someone has sat down and randomly drawn lines on the map. In Europe at least our boarder’s actively signify changes in culture, cultures I would like to protect.
    Again, what culture would you like to protect? The "British" culture? Please, define. Also, by your logic, we are all descendants of immigrants so should we all leave?
    We and our government have every right to say who and who doesn’t come in, our families built this country and there taxes have paid for it so we should decide who gets in. When you start kicking out 2nd generation immigrants you on shaky ground though
    The government doesn't, actually, and neither do you. Why do we have to carry on the legacy of our ancestors? I never really understand when people argue in favour of this. Do I have to fight for everything my ancestors fought for? No.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by Renner)
    Our boarders are not arbitrary, they are hundreds of years old and have evolved over time through diplomacy and the bloodshed of your fellow countryman, its not like someone has sat down and randomly drawn lines on the map. In Europe at least our boarder’s actively signify changes in culture, cultures I would like to protect.

    We and our government have every right to say who and who doesn’t come in, our families built this country and there taxes have paid for it so we should decide who gets in. When you start kicking out 2nd generation immigrants you on shaky ground though
    Borders are arbitrary in that they're socially constructed and, as indicated, they change over time. What we call 'England' or 'Britain' isn't going to be around forever, anymore than the previous Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were. Who knows what kind of human civilisation will occupy this piece of the earth in, say, 2000 years from now or 20,000 years from now? The idea that 'there'll always be an England' isn't a very resonable hypothesis, in the long term.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Again, what culture would you like to protect? The "British" culture? Please, define. Also, by your logic, we are all descendants of immigrants so should we all leave?
    Did I say immigrants should leave, no. All I ask is that they do not change our ways. And that is not logical at all but going back far enough yes we are all immigrants, most people's genetics go back to the Basque region in Spain. I simply oppose change and if immigrants cause that change I will oppose them, but I will also oppose change whoever’s suggesting/implementing it.

    The government doesn't, actually, and neither do you. Why do we have to carry on the legacy of our ancestors? I never really understand when people argue in favour of this. Do I have to fight for everything my ancestors fought for? No.
    It is absolutory ridiculous to suggest the government shouldn’t be able to decide who comes into the country, it is there country after all. I happen to agree with the way our ancestors have developed this country and that’s why I want to carry it on not, as you suggest, just because there our relatives.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    But you have never described what you mean about the subversion of culture! You've made loose references but haven't actually described comprehensively what these immigrants are doing to subvert our culture so much.
    I have done so plenty of times; it's inevitable that with a melting pot of cultures the native culture is displaced, sidelined and diluted.

    (Original post by 35mm_)
    The only thing separating Americans from other ethnic groups that the BNP want to "send home" is skin colour. Can you tell me why it is preferable to have an American living in Britain as opposed to an Indian, for example?
    Erm, no it isn't. They share an indigenous British ethnicity that just happens to carry with it a white skin pigmentation. I'd be just as opposed to a Pole living in Britain as I would an Indian. A nation is characterised by ethnicity. Just as China would cease to be Chinese if the Chinese became a minority, just as Congo would cease to be Congolese if the Congolese became a minority, just as South Africa would, for me, cease to be South African if the native South Africans became a minority, Britain would cease to be British if the indigenous British became a minority. It's horribly racist to deny the indigenous British populace a right to identity as you would recognise a Chinese, Congolese or native South African. Voluntary resettlement merely helps to reverse the tide that threatens to destroy this rule.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Renner)
    Did I say immigrants should leave, no. All I ask is that they do not change our ways. And that is not logical at all but going back far enough yes we are all immigrants, most people's genetics go back to the Basque region in Spain. I simply oppose change and if immigrants cause that change I will oppose them, but I will also oppose change whoever’s suggesting/implementing it.
    What are they changing, then? What culture and traditions are you desiring to preserve? You still haven't defined this British culture that you're so desperately clinging to.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Erm, no it isn't. They share an indigenous British ethnicity that just happens to carry with it a white skin pigmentation. I'd be just as opposed to a Pole living in Britain as I would an Indian.
    Why do you oppose a person who isn't British living in Britain? Offer me a rational explanation as to what's so wrong about it.
    A nation is characterised by ethnicity. Just as China would cease to be Chinese if the Chinese became a minority, just as Congo would cease to be Congolese if the Congolese became a minority, just as South Africa would, for me, cease to be South African if the native South Africans became a minority, Britain would cease to be British if the indigenous British became a minority. It's horribly racist to deny the indigenous British populace a right to identity as you would recognise a Chinese, Congolese or native South African. Voluntary resettlement merely helps to reverse the tide that threatens to destroy this rule.
    Mass immigration is not, contrary to popular belief, causing the destruction of a "British" identity, whatever that is. Your identity is unique and individual to you, and nobody else, if a few immigrants can cause the destruction of your identity then I pity you.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Why do you oppose a person who isn't British living in Britain? Offer me a rational explanation as to what's so wrong about it.
    Because, when brainwashing is omitted, people of a particular ethno-cultural connection share a common link that characterises a nation. I don't oppose minor cases of one or two black or Asian people living in close proximity; but when it's effectively become colonisation, and the government-sponsored experiment of cultural subversion, I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not see it in a negative light.

    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Mass immigration is not, contrary to popular belief, causing the destruction of a "British" identity, whatever that is. Your identity is unique and individual to you, and nobody else, if a few immigrants can cause the destruction of your identity then I pity you.
    It's utterly ridiculous for anyone to deny that British identity exists. It is an accumulation of those English, Scot, Irish and Welsh customs and traditions that can be considered either exclusive to those nations or have shown a consistent presence across the past 2000 years. It's not a case of a "few" immigrants. You forget that these produce offspring within their 'inland islands' (or ghettoes) and pass anti-British views down the generations (while they continue to grow and outnumber the indigenous population). Don't hit me with the individualism nonsense. You have a pretty cynical view towards societal co-operation.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I'm fairly sure you have no evidence to suggest otherwise.
    I'm fairly sure you have no evidence that he will stick to his word, unless you trust the word of Nick Griffin.

    It's simply a ploy to win voters; a simple comment on the Andrew Marr show isn't enough to make me believe the BNP are no longer following one of their main policies.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 35mm_)
    What are they changing, then? What culture and traditions are you desiring to preserve? You still haven't defined this British culture that you're so desperately clinging to.
    Not everything is easily definable; you could write a whole encyclopaedia on a country as diverse as ours. However I firmly believe that British values and the British way of doing things to be worth protecting; from our parliamentary democracy to our common law to our architecture right down to our relaxed attitude to drink, the list is endless.

    I guess the best way to see what our culture is to look how we are different from other culture; whatever’s different is what makes our culture and the same can be said for any country.

    Borders are arbitrary in that they're socially constructed and, as indicated, they change over time. What we call 'England' or 'Britain' isn't going to be around forever, anymore than the previous Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were. Who knows what kind of human civilisation will occupy this piece of the earth in, say, 2000 years from now or 20,000 years from now? The idea that 'there'll always be an England' isn't a very reasonable hypothesis, in the long term.
    But there here now, and right now our boarders are the dividing lines between our cultures, I don’t particularly care what there going to be in a 1000 years but for the time being I would like to preserve them as they are.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by dorian gray)
    I'm fairly sure you have no evidence that he will stick to his word, unless you trust the word of Nick Griffin.
    I don't need any evidence. The party underwent a massive period of reform during which extremist elements were rooted out and replaced by patriots. For one to make spectacular claims such as the party will revert back to the party Tyndall was leader of, requires extraordinary evidence,considering the BNP now may aswell be a completely different party to the one pre-reform.

    (Original post by dorian gray)
    It's simply a ploy to win voters; a simple comment on the Andrew Marr show isn't enough to make me believe the BNP are no longer following one of their main policies.
    The policies Griffin spoke about have been BNP policy ever since their reform, so it is hardly moderating their ideas to gain voters.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I don't need any evidence. The party underwent a massive period of reform during which extremist elements were rooted out...
    Yeah, and how's that working out for them?
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Considering that many Americans are of indigenous European stock then they probably won't as they revert to being native. One of the criteria for the indigenous population in the BNP consitution is those members of the other groups listed who are distributed across the planet.

    So it's gone from native British to Native European?
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Because, when brainwashing is omitted, people of a particular ethno-cultural connection share a common link that characterises a nation. I don't oppose minor cases of one or two black or Asian people living in close proximity; but when it's effectively become colonisation, and the government-sponsored experiment of cultural subversion, I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not see it in a negative light.
    One or two? How amusing. If you find it so abhorrent to live beside a relatively large number of immigrants then I suggest you become more tolerant. Just because two people have two different concepts of culture doesn't mean they can't live side-by-side.
    Britishness. I have a passport, that's all that matters to me about being British. I am English, and inhabitant of the Greater World. I'm not going to believe being English gives me the right to say that anybody who isn't strictly English should **** off back to their own country. Death to "British" culture arrived long ago, way before the arrival of mass immigration; the metamorphosis from arbiters of nations into a consumer culture with no real sense of its own purpose. A house divided against itself which builds idols in the image of football heroes but which has neither visions nor dreams to add. Britishness is just a convenience. It is primarily an invention for the benefit of incomers, so that they feel they belong.
    Don't hit me with the individualism nonsense. You have a pretty cynical view towards societal co-operation.
    See above. As I've said, if you can't make your own identity without relying on those with a similar skin colour to make you feel as though you "belong" then you're a pretty sad human being. Get real.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by dorian gray)
    Yeah, and how's that working out for them?
    Very well. Nothing wrong with wanting to stop illegal immigration, and at it's current rate extreme measures will have to be taken.

    Lives would be saved rather than killed with that policy- think how many die in the terrible conditions they endure on the boats on their way over. By going just off the shores of Africa,sinking the ships and throwing them liferafts you prevent the conditions they endure on the journey and show them there is no way they will reach the shores of Europe.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 35mm_)
    One or two? How amusing. If you find it so abhorrent to live beside a relatively large number of immigrants then I suggest you become more tolerant. Just because two people have two different concepts of culture doesn't mean they can't live side-by-side.
    Britishness. I have a passport, that's all that matters to me about being British. I am English, and inhabitant of the Greater World. I'm not going to believe being English gives me the right to say that anybody who isn't strictly English should **** off back to their own country. Death to "British" culture arrived long ago, way before the arrival of mass immigration; the metamorphosis from arbiters of nations into a consumer culture with no real sense of its own purpose. A house divided against itself which builds idols in the image of football heroes but which has neither visions nor dreams to add. Britishness is just a convenience. It is primarily an invention for the benefit of incomers, so that they feel they belong.

    See above. As I've said, if you can't make your own identity without relying on those with a similar skin colour to make you feel as though you "belong" then you're a pretty sad human being. Get real.
    Beautiful
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    So it's gone from native British to Native European?
    It depends entirely on which type of European. For example, an Italian-American would be permitted to return to Italy by means of a voluntary resettlement scheme, whereas for a German - although they could leave - they'd most probably be part of the same Anglo-Saxon genome. Don't be pedantic - I only cited 'European' so as to stop people saying "it wasn't only the British who comprise Americans of European descent".
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: July 15, 2009
Poll
Which accompaniment is best?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.