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Aeolus
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#121
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#121
(Original post by Renal)
And how are they going to stop them? Reform the Muj?

The Mujj?????

:facepalm2: A vast majority of the Taliban were the muj!

Just like we are fighting alongside the Northern Alliance at the moment who are the present day 'muj'. If we were to leave that Alliance would split into sub factions and fight over territory just like the Taliban...
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Aeolus
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#122
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#122
(Original post by Renal)
No of course not.


Brent Spar is a little bit closer. And, IIRC, the oil is better quality.


But how does this benefit us? We've paid billions of pounds and lost over a hundred men so that the Americans can buy oil off the Iraqi government? Do you honestly suppose they didn't consider just buying it off Hussein?
I think they would prefer to have their oil controlled by someone who is a little more cooperative and a little less unpredictable.

The oil that is being pumped out of Iraq is alot more valuable to the American Government than the men, women and billions that have been lost in the fighting.
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Renal
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#123
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#123
(Original post by Aeolus)
A vast majority of the Taliban were the muj!
I know (but you seem confused as to whether the vast majority are now foreigners or not).


Just like we are fighting alongside the Northern Alliance at the moment who are the present day 'muj'. If we were to leave that Alliance would split into sub factions and fight over territory just like the Taliban...
Exactly. So if we left them to it, the Afghans would not rise up to fight off the taliban.
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Aeolus
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#124
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#124
[QUOTE=Renal]I know (but you seem confused as to whether the vast majority are now foreigners or not).

I think you misread my post. I said the vast majority of the Taliban were the Muj. Most of them have been killed to be replaced with fighters from Pakistan, Saudi etc... If you use the internet i can assure you there is lots of information on the subject.


Exactly. So if we left them to it, the Afghans would not rise up to fight off the taliban.
The main reason the Taliban won the battle for control of Afghanistan after the Soviets left was that they posessed the most support and the best weapons (kindly given to them by us).

Now ask yourself if the Taliban in its current state could take on the tribes of the northern alliance whomm we have gifted with the best support and the best weapons.
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Renal
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#125
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#125
(Original post by Aeolus)
The oil that is being pumped out of Iraq is alot more valuable to the American Government than the men, women and billions that have been lost in the fighting.
Why is that? What happened to the 21,000,000,000 barrels underneath US soil? And if the oil is so valuable why are we paying twice for it (once to secure it and once to buy it off the people we give it to)? But seriously what is the oil worth to the US that will cost them $6,720 Billion to buy plus the $670 Billion monetary cost of war?
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Renal
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#126
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#126
(Original post by Aeolus)
Now ask yourself if the Taliban in its current state could take on the tribes of the northern alliance whomm we have gifted with the best support and the best weapons.
It is doing quite well at taking on 61,000 of the best trained, best supported and best equipped soldiers in the world.
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Aeolus
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#127
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#127
(Original post by Renal)
Why is that? What happened to the 21,000,000,000 barrels underneath US soil? And if the oil is so valuable why are we paying twice for it (once to secure it and once to buy it off the people we give it to)? But seriously what is the oil worth to the US that will cost them $6,720 Billion to buy plus the $670 Billion monetary cost of war?

Stop thinking about he present and look to the future, the global consumption rates, the threat from Russia and China. In the years ahead whoever has acess to the most oil will be the greatest power. Imagine if Saddam had stayed in power and had made an oil deal with China, much like the deals Iran is making with them? That is the reason why America invaded Iraq.
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Aeolus
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#128
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#128
(Original post by Renal)
It is doing quite well at taking on 61,000 of the best trained, best supported and best equipped soldiers in the world.


Lol, is it?
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Renal
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#129
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#129
(Original post by Aeolus)
Lol, is it?
Depends where you look. Look at the highly secured areas around Kabul and you'd say no.
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Aeolus
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#130
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#130
(Original post by Renal)
Depends where you look. Look at the highly secured areas around Kabul and you'd say no.


Are you aware of what has been happening in this conflict? The majority of casualties inflicted upon coalition troops are down to roadside bombs. In gunfights the Taliban are pretty much always defeated.
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Renal
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#131
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#131
(Original post by Aeolus)
Are you aware of what has been happening in this conflict? The majority of casualties inflicted upon coalition troops are down to roadside bombs. In gunfights the Taliban are pretty much always defeated.
We're the one's talking about pulling out - who do you think's being defeated?

Do you think a withdrawal of the coalition would improve the situation? Would the taliban stop killing people with bombs and start standing up to be shot?
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Lefty Leo
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#132
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#132
(Original post by Aeolus)
Kuwait: Kuwait was a border dispute. We had no right to get involved. The only reason we did was because we were panicking over our oil. If the west had stayed out, Isreal would have done something, and so would Saudi Arabia. These two nations might have even worked together to bring down Saddam Hussein in 1990 and the middle east might have been a much safer place today.

Iran We have had a problem with Iran ever since the 50's. It started when the Iranian Prime Minister nationalised their oil reserves, removing the monopoly that BP had held for years. This in turn led to America arresting the Prime Minister and installing their own pro-west Government, who turned out to be a gang of autocratic tyrants. Alot of the Iranian people hated this Government and {i]alot[/i] of people hated America for forcing this Government upon them. Most outspoken of these freedom fighters was the young Ayatollah Komeini.
Next came the Islamic revolution in 1978, followed by an Islamic Republic. Having defied America relation deteriorated rapidly leading to the embassy seige, and the American support for Iraq during the iran/iraq war.
This propoganda being peddled by the USA that Iran hates the west just because they are evil is ********. The USA has earned the hate of the Iranian people through arrogant intervensionism over the last half century.
The idea at the moment that Iran poses a threat to the west is preposterous! They can't even attck their neighbours. If they did develop nuclear weapons then how would they be any different from Pakistan which is a country far more corrupt than Iran. Yes they say that they wan't to wipe out Isreal, but Pakistan have said that they want to wipe out India!
Aha, but Pakistan is an ally of the US

(Original post by Aeolus)
Stop thinking about he present and look to the future, the global consumption rates, the threat from Russia and China. In the years ahead whoever has acess to the most oil will be the greatest power. Imagine if Saddam had stayed in power and had made an oil deal with China, much like the deals Iran is making with them? That is the reason why America invaded Iraq.
Not really Oil is quickly becoming increasingly unaffordable and within the half century will be obsolete.

Hell, Brazil even had 90% bioethanol petrol going on in the 80s before Raegan got the Saudis to drop oil prices to make things difficult for the Soviets.
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4G_dollars
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#133
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#133
delete.
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Lefty Leo
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#134
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#134
(Original post by 4G_dollars)
I thought Pakistan and India are making mends. Pakistan has never expicitely stated they had problems with Israel, in fact both nations do have relations, it is just kept secret.
If you mean continuing to sponsor, equip and train anti indian terrorists, refusing to hand them over, releasing them after a few weeks of house arrest, then yes, pakistan is making amends as it has been doing for decades now.
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4G_dollars
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#135
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Lefty Leo
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#136
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#136
(Original post by 4G_dollars)
The Pakistanis as saying that India is continuing to sponser, equop, train anti pakistani terrorists, refusing to hand them over
Indeed, ironic how blatant lies carries diplomatic weight even though history pretty much proves that Pakistan as a country cannot be trusted.

From proliferating nuclear weapons to having a military autocracy run the country to sponsoring terrorists, Pakistan fits all the bill Iraq didn't. Oh, the ironies of realpolitik.
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4G_dollars
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#137
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Lefty Leo
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#138
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#138
(Original post by 4G_dollars)
I am not Pakistani, It is not my country. Where did you get that idea from? India has nuclear weapons, it is has military, and sponsers terrorists and BJP, and other racist parties, it also has the caste system. But lets forget about that, cos India is whiter than white.
:lolwut: What are you on?

Where did i suggest youre Pakistani?

INDIA sponsors TERRORISTS :rofl: You've been watching toooooo much PTV mate.

The BJP aren't a racist party :facepalm2:. Condemning a religion that wants (and under the vote pandering Congress has enjoyed) separate rights in a country from which it has already seceded from once is not the same as discriminating someone on the colour of their skin by a long shot :rolleyes: . If anything, the BJP are against this ridiculous divided legal code that forbids a muslim woman from having an abortion or a divorce while letting her hindu or christian neighbour have it with no problems. It encourages divisions and is a disgusting betrayal of the liberal principles India was founded on.

The caste system has been worked against for fifty years. It has been the stated goal of every party for the past 50 years to increase reservation for the lower castes (who were discriminated against) to the extent that if you don't promise increased reservation, you don't win the election. It'll soon be outdated as the middle class rise and demand greater levels of meritocracy.

India has it's flaws mate. I never denied that.

You're just talking tripe suggesting India is sponsoring terrorists. The only thing that comes even slightly close is when India harboured the anti West Pakistan guerillas who were campaigning against a brutal, segregationist and "western superiority" East Pakistani government which was dominated by Karachi and Islamabad types with almost no Bangladeshi representiation.
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Aeolus
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#139
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#139
(Original post by Renal)
We're the one's talking about pulling out - who do you think's being defeated?

Do you think a withdrawal of the coalition would improve the situation? Would the taliban stop killing people with bombs and start standing up to be shot?
Defeated?? We had no right to invade in the first place.

How can it be a defeat when we havent even declared war.
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Varsity
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#140
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#140
No, I don't think the US got involved for the Afghan people, why would they?

The US got involved at great expense to defend its own people, the current line of trying to get the general population on side only exists because it helps with the long term goals of destroying the Taliban and securing Afghanistan from extremists.

How you are turning that into so kind of conspiracy involving an oil pipeline is beyond me.
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