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    (Original post by faith90)
    One of the 5 pillars in Islam is.
    'Feed the poor, to give money to those who have got little or haven't got any.'

    This pillar is huge, it is so important that Muslims can't enter heaven if they don't accomplish this duty. So you can't say that Muslims don't feed the poor.

    Muslims almost exclusively help their own. To Muslims this constitutes giving 2% of their income to other Muslims around the world. This is however one of the few things I like about Islam, it's just living in Leeds it is a bit annoying when you see them only helping Muslims or collecting for Muslim appeals or picketing for Palestinians. They literally care about no one else.
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    (Original post by 07.11.1990)
    Its a debate lol. Dont forget though there are plenty of great Muslim people, in fact im confident in saying most are. Most people in th world are good, right?
    I don't disagree that the majority are good. The point is, with regards to this country in particular, out of all groups Islam probably has double the amount of extremists in its midsts. I mean the government is tracking around 4000 who they believe pose a violent threat on a large scale, and thousands more who are just classified as holding extreme beliefs that could lead onto violence in the future.
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    No, it's not. Neither is Christianity and I know nothing of Judaism (surprising since I am of Jewish descent) but I'm sure that isn't peaceful either.

    However, a much larger proportion of Muslims follow the Qu'ran wholly and believe there is justification for the discrimination and violence it entails. You don't need sources or statistical evidence to believe that, you just need to have been awake for the past few years.

    All major religions are violent, just Islam is the worst of a bad bunch.
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    I think you mean incomprehensible and not so humourous :p:

    So you're comparing to the actions and beliefs of a large plurality of Muslims to those of a small and highly ostracized minority of Christians?

    And even so, "you did it too" is no response to a violent and intolerant faith.
    Incomprehensible...aren't we all? Some more than others (ie. me)

    I don't think it's really fair to get on anyone to get on their high horse and insult a religion for being "backward" when, in some degree, Christianity as well as other religions are equally backward in some of their teachings. Christianity's view on homosexuals for example - in today's society, do you not find the majority of intolerance to be redundant?

    I agree that their discrimination against women is bad, but we go on as if there isnt discrimination against women in this country.... I can't remember the exact numbers but the amount of women who are beaten by their husbands is incredible. I know that it isn't condoned by Christianity (well, as far as I know) but it's not really fair of us to go mental about another religion when supposed Christians do exactly the same thing?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I don't disagree that the majority are good. The point is, with regards to this country in particular, out of all groups Islam probably has double the amount of extremists in its midsts. I mean the government is tracking around 4000 who they believe pose a violent threat on a large scale, and thousands more who are just classified as holding extreme beliefs that could lead onto violence in the future.
    This is because of misguidance, misconceptions and misinterpretation, the 3 Ms. Unfortuneately, many teenagers use the internet for their islamic education and that is how thye get mixed in with terrorism.
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    (Original post by kashim91)
    This is because of misguidance, misconceptions and misinterpretation, the 3 Ms. Unfortuneately, many teenagers use the internet for their islamic education and that is how thye get mixed in with terrorism.
    Well, I can prove to you within seconds that Christianity does not condone violence. Please could you do the same for me with regards to Islam? Because it seems to be it is fairly easy to come to the conclusion that suicide bombing when you are involved in Jihad is a free pass into heaven.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Muslims almost exclusively help their own. To Muslims this constitutes giving 2% of their income to other Muslims around the world. This is however one of the few things I like about Islam, it's just living in Leeds it is a bit annoying when you see them only helping Muslims or collecting for Muslim appeals or picketing for Palestinians. They literally care about no one else.
    All the Muslims I know give money to people around the world particularly Africa where I think they need the most. Yes, there are some Muslims giving to their fellow Muslims but it's best to give money to those who need the most.
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    (Original post by RedDragon)
    So is the word 'beating' a mistranslation of the original arabic? I mean there is always that risk, when translating religious texts. I mean there may be words that can't be translated into English.
    I wouldn't call it a mistranslation - but I'd say that nowadays, we understand the word 'beat' to be much more extreme than the translator would have understood it.
    The Arabic word واضربوهن used does not suggest actually beating someone up, but something more like what you would do to a one year old child who's been naughty - in the sense of making them heed the fact that they have done something wrong, rather than physically hurting them.
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    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    Incomprehensible...aren't we all? Some more than others (ie. me)

    I don't think it's really fair to get on anyone to get on their high horse and insult a religion for being "backward" when, in some degree, Christianity as well as other religions are equally backward in some of their teachings. Christianity's view on homosexuals for example - in today's society, do you not find the majority of intolerance to be redundant?

    I agree that their discrimination against women is bad, but we go on as if there isnt discrimination against women in this country.... I can't remember the exact numbers but the amount of women who are beaten by their husbands is incredible. I know that it isn't condoned by Christianity (well, as far as I know) but it's not really fair of us to go mental about another religion when supposed Christians do exactly the same thing?
    Just because something happened in the past here does not mean you should condone it happening it somewhere else. Why did such practices disappear? Progress is not achieved by empathizing with something that disgusts you, purely to be tolerant. Be intolerant of intolerence if you want it to disappear, not accept it with open arms :p: . I know, that sounds hypocritical, but meh, i'm a hypocrite and proud

    As an atheist i have no duty to be accepting of religion. I can tolerate sure, but you wrongly equate tolerance with acceptance (in my opinion) and this is the key failing of western liberalism - equating tolerance of intolerance, bigotism and religious supremacy with acceptance (to the extent of allowing schools that teach this).
    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    You're right, there is a minority in every religion and the muslims you see or hear wanting the west to suffer and die are exactly that minorities. It's a pretty broad and incorrect generalisation to make that Muslims are all inherently evil.
    Well, Islam specifically states that every man is duty bound to spread the faith. However, if the majority contributes in some way (the 2% tax thing), then it can be left to a minority to spread the faith.

    And even so, it's been estimated that upto 20% of muslims form this minority. No doubt it was by a fairly right wing think tank, but considering how extreme muslims *i* know are, it seems a bit erm .. underestimated :p:
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Well, the historical accounts outside of the Quaran are very different to what the Quaran claims about these wars. Further to this there are verses commanding Muslims to continue chasing retreating enemies. And how do you explain the verse ordering them to remove fingers and heads? That isn't civilised, let alone peaceful.
    Look at warfare today and talk about what is civilised or not. We have nuclear weapons capable of causing mass deaths among civilians and incredibly painful radiation sickness amongst many. That is just one example amongst many.

    The cutting off of heads was to ensure that enemy combatants were dead - nothing wrong with that in warfare at all.

    The cutting off of fingers was to ensure that they cannot use their weapons - much nicer than killing them.

    In rules of engagement, even up to today, Islam has the upper hand. Torture is strictly prohibited, aggression and pre-emptive strikes are also prohibited. If the enemy has surrendered, you are not allowed to kill them. Chasing retreating armies is not the same thing. I think that you are very ignorant in the field of military warfare - When an army retreats, they are retreating to fight another battle another day. The best thing to do is to stop them and finish them off. They are retreating because they are weak, providing the best opportunity for finishing the enemies off. (ok. Sometimes it can be a trap so it is best to use extreme caution).
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    (Original post by PurpleMonkeyDishwasher)
    No, it's not. Neither is Christianity and I know nothing of Judaism (surprising since I am of Jewish descent) but I'm sure that isn't peaceful either.

    However, a much larger proportion of Muslims follow the Qu'ran wholly and believe there is justification for the discrimination and violence it entails. You don't need sources or statistical evidence to believe that, you just need to have been awake for the past few years.

    All major religions are violent, just Islam is the worst of a bad bunch.
    You know nothing of Judaism, yet you jump to conclusions. Firstly what if Judaism is worse than islam supposedly is, or what if it is peaceful? You need to look at the religion, not the followers, and not muslim government. It's like saying that food is halal. Just because someone says it does that mean it is? Plus you should also look at both sides of the argument before you have your own opinion, otherwise your opinion will be in severe jepoardy of being very biased.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Where did I say that they are all inherently evil. No one is inherently evil. There are however many more extremists within Islam, the combination of outcasting yourself in ghettos or in 100% Muslim societies and the Quaran means this was always bound to happen. From what i've read about the life of Mohammed I am pretty certain which group he would be a part of.

    I have already proven countless times on this forum that Christians give far more to charity than non-believers; and before you start, that is in like for like scenarios. Meaning if I earn 20k and so do you, the odds are I will give a higher percentage.
    The implications of the whole post have seemed to imply, perhaps not evil, but that all muslims have an innate desire to be violent towards others, which simply isn't the case. Just because something is seemingly more documented in the media or on the internet etc, doesn't mean it can be taken for gospel. All religions have extremists, it's not really fair of anyone to target Islam when their own religions are far from perfect.

    As for the sentence I emboldened...haha! Are you for real? Being "of faith" has no direct correlation to how much you give to charity! I myself am not religious, I guess I'm an Athiest (although I don't really think it's fair to call myself Athiest when I simply don't believe in the conventions of Church and how they dictate to us what God wants/thinks/say/does) and I give plenty to charity, and so do a hell of a lot of other Athiests. Being moral and humane, like I said before, has nothing to do with being religious or having faith at all.
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    I just have to say that I find this thread to be quite offensive. I am a Muslim and have lived in Saudi Arabia for most of my life (although I am not Saudi, I am Lebanese). One of the things I have noticed while growing up is how easy it is to stereotype Islam as a religion raising terrorists and violent people. BUT IT IS NOT.

    I admit that many Muslims have committed terrible crimes, but it is also true that many Christians, Jews and people of other religions have acted similarly. So why is Islam the religion stained with this reputation?

    For my argument, I'll post a link to this site:

    http://www.opposingviews.com/argumen...d-christianity

    It shows that it many ways, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are actually very similar.

    Firstly, one of the main things that Islam teaches Muslims are the five pillars. These "pillars" are basically 5 things that a human must do to be a good Muslim. I guess you could say it is similar to the 10 commandments in Christianity. These 5 "Pillars" are:

    1) Shahada: The belief that there is only one God.
    2) Salat: Praying 5 times a day.
    3) Zakat: Which basically requires Muslims to be charitable and to help those with economic difficulties.
    4) Saum: which involves fasting during Ramadan, and
    5) Hajj: which is a pilgrimage that Muslims must make at least once in their lifetime.

    NOWHERE in these basic 5 pillars does Islam teach its followers to be violent. It teaches them to be charitable, emphatic and faithful.

    I'll move on to the concept of Jihad which is commonly misunderstood. Unfortunately, many extremists claim that when they commit terrorist acts, they are doing Jihad (which is in the Qu'ran). But they are MISTAKEN. Jihad means "Striving" NOT "Holy War". Holy War actually originated with the European Crusaders during the 11th century.

    Also, I will say that many extremists have become this way, not because of Islam, but because of the conditions and situations they were brought up in. A man raised in a constant war will grow up to be belligerent. This is unfortunate but is true and has caused the stereotyping of Muslims to be terrorists, which I find very offensive.

    Another fact is that most Muslims are located in Asia and NOT the Middle East. So why are Muslims in the Middle East seen as violent? It is because of the conditioning (wars, political battles) that we live in and NOT what our religion teaches us. I would like to stress this point.

    Islam teaches the opposite, it condemns murder, tells Muslims to accept and RESPECT other religions. Also, regarding the treatment of women. In Islam, there is no difference between men and women's relationship to God; they receive identical rewards and punishments for their conduct. The Qu'ran STATES THIS.

    Therefore I find arguments against Islam groundless, when I have been raised as a Muslim. I have NOT been taught to hate Jews or people of any other religion EVEN if they disrespect mine. I HAVE been taught to treat women without ANY discrimination and I have been taught to resolve my problems without the use of violence.

    Anyways, have a nice day guys:p:
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Well, I can prove to you within seconds that Christianity does not condone violence. Please could you do the same for me with regards to Islam? Because it seems to be it is fairly easy to come to the conclusion that suicide bombing when you are involved in Jihad is a free pass into heaven.
    Jihad is the inner fighting against the temptations to do wrong, unfortunately people misinterpreted and do suicide bombing which I think is ridiculous!- they blatantly deserve hell by taking away a life that God has given.
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    Sick of threads like this.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I wouldn't call it a mistranslation - but I'd say that nowadays, we understand the word 'beat' to be much more extreme than the translator would have understood it.
    The Arabic word واضربوهن used does not suggest actually beating someone up, but something more like what you would do to a one year old child who's been naughty - in the sense of making them heed the fact that they have done something wrong, rather than physically hurting them.
    Thanks. There is a major danger when translating a text. That really does clear things up. Other people have suggested tapping your wife with a toothbrush which just sounds bloody bizarre.

    Anyway, that makes a lot of sense.

    However, what about the issue of homosexuals? There is no way in hell that anybody can tell me that homosexuals are what they are by choice. They simply feel more sexually attracted to the same sex than the opposite. I don't understand how one can be punished for this.

    Anyway, are you Arabic?
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    (Original post by nouvelle_vague)
    The implications of the whole post have seemed to imply, perhaps not evil, but that all muslims have an innate desire to be violent towards others, which simply isn't the case. Just because something is seemingly more documented in the media or on the internet etc, doesn't mean it can be taken for gospel. All religions have extremists, it's not really fair of anyone to target Islam when their own religions are far from perfect.

    As for the sentence I emboldened...haha! Are you for real? Being "of faith" has no direct correlation to how much you give to charity! I myself am not religious, I guess I'm an Athiest (although I don't really think it's fair to call myself Athiest when I simply don't believe in the conventions of Church and how they dictate to us what God wants/thinks/say/does) and I give plenty to charity, and so do a hell of a lot of other Athiests. Being moral and humane, like I said before, has nothing to do with being religious or having faith at all.
    Unfortunately Muslims DO have a desire to be violent towards non Muslims (however masked or denied; not suggesting that all believe in it, but its a central tenet of Islam). Please read an unabridged version of the Koran . Every single page, without exception, has bits about killing the infidel, converting those to the path of allah, etc. Seriously. Try it!

    I do agree that you don't need to be religious to be moral. Religion often makes you accepting og many forms of cruelty and horrible behaviour.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    The question you actually need to ask is whether Islam is being practiced as a religion of peace by it's adherents?
    Truth.
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    While I do believe that some aspects of Islam do teach peace, this is just to mask the darker more sinister side of it. I am an atheist, but not a strong atheist, so if there is a God and a Devil then I believe that the Qu'ran was the work of the devil as we have free will and therefore God will not stop Muslims in following an evil religion.

    I'm almost certainly going to get neg repped for this but before you do just remember that this is a valid argument which deserves thought.
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    (Original post by RosePetal)
    Sick of threads like this.
    Well, good for you. The only reason why I created this thread was to promote discussion and debate on a very important topic. If you don't like it, why don't you f*** off to another thread.

    Thank you for visiting.
 
 
 
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