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    (Original post by eulerwaswrong)
    well surely if you both got firsts - but one person gets it from a college ranked first, the other gets it from a college ranked last - surely the better student is the one from the worse college?
    That sounds like the same kind of thinking that says AAA from a state school kid is better than AAA from a public school kid...
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    (Original post by Zhen Lin)
    That sounds like the same kind of thinking that says AAA from a state school kid is better than AAA from a public school kid...
    Which, IMO, as a broad generalisation, probably has some truth in it. Not sure how well it carries over to colleges though, since most stuff is done centrally.
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    (Original post by Zhen Lin)
    That sounds like the same kind of thinking that says AAA from a state school kid is better than AAA from a public school kid...
    well arguably.

    My opinion is that any kid who is good enough to get AAA will get it whatever school they go to. But public schools are able to push those middle ability pupils from BBB to AAA for example - you cant deny the quality of education must have an impact - and thus improve chances of getting AAA - but at the same time if someone is good enough theyll get it wherever.
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    (Original post by 8 is enough)
    hey, I'm going to be a fresher at Johns starting this October and felt a sense of forboding reading your post

    Just to ask, do people actually take that speech seriously? I mean, will there be enough people there like me who just want a good job at the end, and would rather get 2.1s and have a good time (maybe try for a 1st in the 3rd year) rather than work ridiculously hard to maybe get a 1st in every year?

    also what is an academic room ballot?
    Loads of people (if not MOST people) are perfectly happy with a 2.1. A 1st is an added bonus, but the vast majority of the people I know are thrilled to get 2.1s. Like you say, it's better to have a life and not constantly work and get a 2.1 than to come close to killing yourself for a 1st.

    A number of colleges use academic room balloting. This means that your first (in some cases second) year result determines the quality of room you are given in subsequent years. There are often really large/nice "scholars rooms" reserved for people who get 1sts in their first year. Some (most?) colleges also offer cash rewards and other incentives to those who get 1sts.
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    Woo, Selwyn stayed towards the top!
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    (Original post by Zhen Lin)
    That sounds like the same kind of thinking that says AAA from a state school kid is better than AAA from a public school kid...
    While its hard to argue that the state school kid is 'better', I'd say its arguable that the state school student represents a bigger achievement. At my school, although we're going back nearly 11 years since I began there, we had primitive science and computing facilities, and for the first half or more (3 years sometimes 4) the classes weren't selective in any way shape or form. Ergo, we'd have the knuckledraggers permanently holding back the better students. In a selective fee paying school, this simply doesn't happen to anywhere near the same extent. Secondly, I know people who were forced to go and get part time jobs when they turned 16, so the last couple of years were again hampered by external forces- while this can happen with a privately schooled student, I'd suggest from anecdotal evidence that schoolwork came first if it had to, the job could be packed in- not everyone had that luxury.

    As mentioned above, I think better schools can get more out of average students, the most talented will be towards the top regardless. However, even though my school wasn't subject to the A-Level system, I think there is plenty of students out there who just missed straight As, but may well have got them had they not had other forces working against them.


    I don't like these tables (Norrington included), as I don't really think its fair that colleges or institutions with different demographics/subject mixes are compared as if like for like- its like arguing the LSE is 'better' than Imperial; or St Andrews, with 6,000 students and a limited range of subjects is 'better' than Manchester, seven times the size and teaching everything under the sun. The quality of education is undoutbedly very high in many places, yet we seem obsessed with ranking things against each other when the playing field is far from level.
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    (Original post by Arrogant Git)
    The Tompkins table is weighted so that a first and a 2.II counts for more than two 2.Is. Given the different results profiles for men and women, that would give a random sample of men a higher tompkins score than a random sample of women.

    The Tompkins table favours those colleges that have a larger standard deviation in their results; i.e. a more male results profile. Ergo, it is biased against colleges which admit a larger than average numbers of women.

    Why these results profiles differ I can't begin to argue, but I don't think anyone is going to argue that women are any less intelligent than men or that they are worse at tripos (on average they do pretty much the same).
    I'm sure you're right about results profiles but I wouldn't say it was equivalent to a bias against women. Thats like saying that the Olympics medal table is biased towards Country A who got loads of golds and bronzes even though Country B got twice as many silvers but not many golds. Firsts are a good measure of achievement, so that's what the table uses. That makes it biased towards sciencey colleges, but not on gender. Your table combining 1sts and 2.is is interesting, but not as good a measure in my opinion, seeing as a 2.i is pretty much the average grade in arts subjects.

    And technically it's probably right to have a greater difference (in Tompkins points) between a 1st and a 2.i than between a 2.i and a 2.ii, after all the former is a difference between classes, and the latter is a difference in a subdivision of a class, even if they aren't treated as such.
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    (Original post by Clements-)
    :rofl2: my friend started in natscis at clare this year :moon:
    You quoted the entire table just to tell us this? :eyeball:
    (Original post by Eye)
    Shutting the bar in exam term or closing it early seems particularly stupid. It's not going to stop people drinking who want to and I find the bar particularly useful in exam term. Shutting it earlier is silly because surely that's just encouraging students to stop revising/leave the library earlier.
    College are quite good at being silly...
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    You quoted the entire table just to tell us this? :eyeball:

    College are quite good at being silly...
    Yup :proud:
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    (Original post by 0404343m)
    I don't like these tables (Norrington included), as I don't really think its fair that colleges or institutions with different demographics/subject mixes are compared as if like for like- its like arguing the LSE is 'better' than Imperial; or St Andrews, with 6,000 students and a limited range of subjects is 'better' than Manchester, seven times the size and teaching everything under the sun. The quality of education is undoutbedly very high in many places, yet we seem obsessed with ranking things against each other when the playing field is far from level.
    I'm not too bugged by the table, but more by the fact that people actually take it seriously and care about it. But I guess you're right, its a bit pointless to draw them up in the first instance.
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    (Original post by Arrogant Git)
    You're pretty much right. What the Tompkins table does, however, is provide the senior tutors and deans of colleges with an excuse to ban fun and to bully next years freshers.

    The deans of Sidney, Clare and Christ's are probably foaming at the mouth in puritanical fervour as we speak.
    rubbish
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    (Original post by 8 is enough)
    hey, I'm going to be a fresher at Johns starting this October and felt a sense of forboding reading your post

    Just to ask, do people actually take that speech seriously? I mean, will there be enough people there like me who just want a good job at the end, and would rather get 2.1s and have a good time (maybe try for a 1st in the 3rd year) rather than work ridiculously hard to maybe get a 1st in every year?

    also what is an academic room ballot?
    Hey, I wouldn't worry that much, they've had their year of crazy (and have now 'promised' to consult the JCR before making bold moves in the future) and things around John's are generally quite groovy (still lots of parties, good bar etc.) it's just their reaction was quite funny and kinda knee-jerk. No-one really took the speeh too seriously, just needed to give the freshers reassurance that it isn't all just work, work, work.

    The majority of people are in the 'get the balance of university life' boat, and you'll deffo find that at John's, so don't worry.

    I'll pm you 'bout current room ballot shenanigans at John's
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    Elitism in the elite ... where will it end...
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    (Original post by Eye)
    Shutting the bar in exam term or closing it early seems particularly stupid. It's not going to stop people drinking who want to and I find the bar particularly useful in exam term. Shutting it earlier is silly because surely that's just encouraging students to stop revising/leave the library earlier.
    I would assume it's so they don't have to take responsibility for it. If the college are doing all they can to kill social life in exam term, and people still do badly, they can claim it's not their fault?

    Had Fitz actually locked the bar room I would have been screwed during exam term. There wasn't enough light in my room to work so I pretty much spent all my days in the bar whether it was selling stuff or not.
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    (Original post by Satine)
    Had Fitz actually locked the bar room I would have been screwed during exam term. There wasn't enough light in my room to work so I pretty much spent all my days in the bar whether it was selling stuff or not.
    Couldn't you just go to housekeeping and ask for any old unused lamps they had lying about? :lolwut:

    Or..... order a £2.99 cheapo from Argos. £5 delivery cost and you don't even have to fetch it yourself :p:
    My college room is nearly entirely lit with my own lamps and fairy lights. Can't stand college lighting.
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    (Original post by Time Dot Com)
    Woo, Selwyn stayed towards the top!
    Go Selwyn!:ahee:
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    (Original post by Melz0r)
    Yes, exactly. Anyone who says, "Oh, she got a degree from Cambridge - but it was only from Lucy Cavendish. God. Thicko," is being a bit silly, which was I think the point.
    Depends. If I were interviewing I would reject people from a certain college. Good that it's not down to me yet.
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    (Original post by Comp_Genius)
    Depends. If I were interviewing I would reject people from a certain college. Good that it's not down to me yet.
    :eyeball:
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    :eyeball:
    No, it's not lucy cavendish, and not pete's house either - they're both fine.:cool:
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    (Original post by Comp_Genius)
    No, it's not lucy cavendish, and not pete's house either - they're both fine.:cool:
    That's hardly the point. I'm asking why you would reject somebody purely because of which college they were at.
 
 
 
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