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I won't put a cap on immigration vows Alan Johnson watch

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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I don't hate black people or want them out of the country. The point is that you're so convinced that the spine of traditional British culture (which I've defined above without you really tackling) will remain and just work alongside other cultures, when I doubt this'll remain the case. I fear a bland, global monoculture tbh. You may want that, but I don't. I support cultural diversity on a global level.
    What? You've just made something up called 'the spine of traditional British culture' and you expect this to represent a defence of the BNP? lol

    If you fear monoculture then you've not studied culture at the academic level - what we're actually seeing is ever more diverse culture being generated than ever before. We only have to look at popular music in Britain over the past 50 years or so. In the 1950s almost all teenagers were listening to the very same music, with maybe one or two subcultures. Today there's more genres of music and associated culture than you can shake a stick at. We could talk about food, fashion, religion and philosophy, even politics, globalisation generates diversity and the constant generation of new and varied cultural life.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    What? You've just made something up called 'the spine of traditional British culture' and you expect this to represent a defence of the BNP? lol
    Er, no.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    If you fear monoculture then you've not studied culture at the academic level - what we're actually seeing is ever more diverse culture being generated than ever before. We only have to look at popular music in Britain over the past 50 years or so. In the 1950s almost all teenagers were listening to the very same music, with maybe one or two subcultures. Today there's more genres of music and associated culture than you can shake a stick at. We could talk about food, fashion, religion and philosophy, even politics, globalisation generates diversity and the constant generation of new and varied cultural life.
    I'm not an individualist and so I don't celebrate the divergence of culture; I think traditions should be sustained. Simple as that. The point that you become 'more educated' about different cultures is quite baseless. You'd achieve more by just reading a foreign translation of a certain text on 'philosophy' etc. And most are also naturally inclined to stick to their own and not emerse in these different cultures you speak of. I'd be in greater support of keeping culture seperate and distinct; allowed to flourish within their own boundaries - and with the ingenuity in human transportation that will undoubtedly come within the next 50-100 years, these will be easily accessible to anyone willing to experience them. Globalisation could feed greater diversity through transport, rather than shoving a melting pot of cultures all in one area and not allowing them to flourish. Furthermore, this is only happening in the West. Why the hell aren't you calling for Pakistan, China and Somalia to be "multiculturalised". Do you support Israeli nationalism out of interest?
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Er, no.

    I'm not an individualist and so I don't celebrate the divergence of culture; I think traditions should be sustained. Simple as that. ...
    lol

    More of the same: "traditions should be sustained because, erm, they're traditions..."

    You'll probably spend the whole of your life failing to recognise these facts but I'll offer them anyway. Traditions will be sustained where there's sufficient interest in sustaining them. Worried about morris-dancing? Become a morris-dancer. Worried about lack of church attendance, start attending church. You can't force other people to maintain the culture you privilege just because, you know, you privilege it. Otherwise traditions will come and go, as they ever have, some will be transformed or integrated into other cultural forms, some will fade slowly away others come to an abrupt halt. One thing is pretty certain, all traditions have beginnings and they all have ends. Wanting something to be around simply because it has become a tradition is pretty unintellectual.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    lol

    More of the same: "traditions should be sustained because, erm, they're traditions..."

    You'll probably spend the whole of your life failing to recognise these facts but I'll offer them anyway. Traditions will be sustained where there's sufficient interest in sustaining them. Worried about morris-dancing? Become a morris-dancer. Worried about lack of church attendance, start attending church. You can't force other people to maintain the culture you privilege just because, you know, you privilege it. Otherwise traditions will come and go, as they ever have, some will be transformed or integrated into other cultural forms, some will fade slowly away others come to an abrupt halt. One thing is pretty certain, all traditions have beginnings and they all have ends. Wanting something to be around simply because it has become a tradition is pretty unintellectual.
    It's not 'unintellectual', it's probably just that I have a greater feeling of empathy or nostalgia. Traditions are tried and tested customs and values that have survived the sands of time. You may see it as a natural process that cultures change, but this does not have to happen. If it's not desired by many (don't know if this is the case) then there's not a problem with being conservative. I don't intend to 'force' anything. I state what I believe and what I think.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    ... Traditions are tried and tested customs and values that have survived the sands of time. You may see it as a natural process that cultures change, but this does not have to happen. If it's not desired by many (don't know if this is the case) then there's not a problem with being conservative. I don't intend to 'force' anything. I state what I believe and what I think.
    'the sands of time'? Which traditions are you talking about exactly?

    It's simply a fact that traditions come and go, they all have beginnings, they routinely transform, fade away or come to an end in some way or other. You may not like that but it's what happens. By all means identify any tradition you like that is part of British culture today and we'll probably be able to identify when it began and in many instances it won't be as old as might be imagined. Christianity, to take the subject you're most obsessed with, didn't really get established among the general population in Britain until after the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons, and even then their 'conversion' was mostly the conversion of a political elite.

    If you could offer up a specific list of cultural traditions in modern Britain which you want to defend you'd at least make your case more obvious - can you do that though? Indeed, what is it you do in your life, specifically, which is consistent with these traditions of yours?
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    'the sands of time'? Which traditions are you talking about exactly?

    It's simply a fact that traditions come and go, they all have beginnings, they routinely transform, fade away or come to an end in some way or other. You may not like that but it's what happens. By all means identify any tradition you like that is part of British culture today and we'll probably be able to identify when it began and in many instances it won't be as old as might be imagined. Christianity, to take the subject you're most obsessed with, didn't really get established among the general population in Britain until after the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons, and even then their 'conversion' was mostly the conversion of a political elite.

    If you could offer up a specific list of cultural traditions in modern Britain which you want to defend you'd at least make your case more obvious - can you do that though? Indeed, what is it you do in your life, specifically, which is consistent with these traditions of yours?
    In my life at the moment I'm doing nothing. But I guess with regards to the school curriculum of yesteryear, a curriculum based around respect for the nation wouldn't have gone amiss. Especially concerning British History; ridding of the indoctrination crap about how evil the Nazis (understandably) and the Empire were, but the brilliance Marx and Lenin. :rolleyes: Nah, that's just one thing.

    Specifics...things like the monarchy, national holidays, flags and emblems, songs, anthems, pubs, English literature, British arts, British cars etc. Regardless of how far they go back, they can be considered exclusively British in their nature. But they are under threat of subversion, which is ominous in light of the New World Order.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    In my life at the moment I'm doing nothing. But I guess with regards to the school curriculum of yesteryear, a curriculum based around respect for the nation wouldn't have gone amiss. ...

    Specifics...things like the monarchy, national holidays, flags and emblems, songs, anthems, pubs, English literature, British arts, British cars etc. Regardless of how far they go back, they can be considered exclusively British in their nature. But they are under threat of subversion, which is ominous in light of the New World Order.
    So, surprise, surprise, you're defending nationalism, monarchy, the paraphernalia of nationalism and monarchy, pubs, English literature, arts and, erm, cars. Is this the heart of the culture you worry about? Really?

    To the extent that these things are under threat it has little to do with immigration and everything to do with people choosing to be interested in other things. Surely you realise that modern society is one of freedom to be interested in whatever you choose and that just as you might want to drape yourself in a Union Flag and sing the National Anthem before you go to bed each night, plenty of other people aren't going to bother?
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    So, surprise, surprise, you're defending nationalism, monarchy, the paraphernalia of nationalism and monarchy, pubs, English literature, arts and, erm, cars. Is this the heart of the culture you worry about? Really?

    To the extent that these things are under threat it has little to do with immigration and everything to do with people choosing to be interested in other things. Surely you realise that modern society is one of freedom to be interested in whatever you choose and that just as you might want to drape yourself in a Union Flag and sing the National Anthem before you go to bed each night, plenty of other people aren't going to bother?
    I'm defending my nation-state, yes. Why not? 99.99...% of all people in history showed unquestioned commitment to their tribe, nation or empire. It's hardly freakish unless you think the world's 30-40 years old. You see, people wouldn't choose to do these other things if there was still a sustained patriotism that has governed everything else. Political and social indoctrination is what's led to the sense of apathy towards the nation-state; not free choice.

    Anyway, I'm orf to the pub.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I'm defending my nation-state, yes. Why not? 99.99...% of all people in history showed unquestioned commitment to their tribe, nation or empire. ...Political and social indoctrination is what's led to the sense of apathy towards the nation-state; not free choice.
    The nation-state as we understand it today is a pretty recent phenomenon. Nationalism as a popular ideology is correspondingly recent, and often overstated too. You've pulled a statistic out of your arse only to show how lightweight you are.

    You're in a bit of a logical bind here, of course. If people are so vulnerable to indoctrination today then you can hardly argue against the claim that any evidence of past loyalty to 'tribe, nation or empire' was itself also the result of indoctrination from another quarter. You're also giving a lot of credit to, presumably, 'lefties' and 'liberals', who seem consistently able to manipulate the thinking and behaviour of entire nations so as to render them apathetic to your values. Nationalism (at least certainly of the flag-waving kind) and monarchy are less appealing to people today than they have, occasionally, been in the past because they have little active significance in the lives of increasing numbers. It's pretty much that simple.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Specifics...things like the monarchy, national holidays, flags and emblems, songs, anthems, pubs, English literature, British arts, British cars etc. Regardless of how far they go back, they can be considered exclusively British in their nature. But they are under threat of subversion, which is ominous in light of the New World Order.
    If people simply aren't going to pubs, or buying British cars, or reading British literature, then what do you propose doing to remedy that?
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    If people simply aren't going to pubs, or buying British cars, or reading British literature, then what do you propose doing to remedy that?
    Legislation I'm guessing, gotta stop that "British way of life" that never existed from dying. :rolleyes:

    It's like he got his political ideas from the lyrics of "Jerusalem"
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    The nation-state as we understand it today is a pretty recent phenomenon. Nationalism as a popular ideology is correspondingly recent, and often overstated too. You've pulled a statistic out of your arse only to show how lightweight you are.
    If you look again you'll see I didn't refer to "the nation-state". And I'm accused of spin. LOL.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    You're in a bit of a logical bind here, of course. If people are so vulnerable to indoctrination today then you can hardly argue against the claim that any evidence of past loyalty to 'tribe, nation or empire' was itself also the result of indoctrination from another quarter.
    True. But this does nothing to discredit my claim in light of yours.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    Nationalism (at least certainly of the flag-waving kind) and monarchy are less appealing to people today than they have, occasionally, been in the past because they have little active significance in the lives of increasing numbers. It's pretty much that simple.
    The populations of Middle-Eastern nations, and NICs are developing at unprecedented rates, yet still maintain an allegience to the state. The state also has little influence in certain European countries which are growing and developing (e.g. France) yet the people are generally very patriotic. This obsessively "positivist" attitude is a load of nonsense. The media-enforced MTV-culture, the placing of kids in front of televisions instead of being encouraged to play cricket, the attitude that America rules the world etc. are all great influences that evade people who adhere to traditional cultural values in small French and Italian villages.

    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    It's like he got his political ideas from the lyrics of "Jerusalem"
    So what? At least I don't hate myself and everything my existence is built on.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    So what? At least I don't hate myself and everything my existence is built on.
    Dear me NB, I don't hate myself, I am proud of my achievements and the achievements of my friends and family. I don't however, believe I have some mystical heritage that I share with everyone from the Queen to people living in the highlands. Nor do I try to take credit for things which were done centuries ago by people I didn't know, that doesn't define me and nor should it.

    Since you've been borderline impenetrable on these threads, I shall leave with a Doug Stanhope quote.

    "Nationalism does nothing but teach you how to hate people you've never met, and to take pride in accomplishments you had no part in"

    :hand:
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    Dear me NB, I don't hate myself, I am proud of my achievements and the achievements of my friends and family. I don't however, believe I have some mystical heritage that I share with everyone from the Queen to people living in the highlands. Nor do I try to take credit for things which were done centuries ago by people I didn't know, that doesn't define me and nor should it.

    Since you've been borderline impenetrable on these threads, I shall leave with a Doug Stanhope quote.

    "Nationalism does nothing but teach you how to hate people you've never met, and to take pride in accomplishments you had no part in"

    :hand:
    Well then you hardly deserve anything back. Reducing identity to the individual is nothing but selfish, undutiful, irresponsible and, funnily enough, elitist. :teeth:
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    If you look again you'll see I didn't refer to "the nation-state". And I'm accused of spin. LOL.
    ...
    Originally Posted by necessarily benevolent
    I'm defending my nation-state, yes.
    You don't even know what you posted? You fail.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    You don't even know what you posted? You fail.
    I do know quite well what I posted:

    ...showed unquestioned commitment to their tribe, nation or empire...
    Although I referred to the nation-state regarding myself (considering that my allegiance is to what is a nation-state) this form of allegiance has been a case concerning other forms of governance. You want society to be reduced to a collective of individuals with no hierarchy. Get real please. Hierarchy is ALL there is. And if you try and change it, simple human greed and competitiveness will cause a relapse. There is (a) no manner by which to achieve a universal egalitarian society for this reason, and (b) if this does come about it will never be sustained in spite of violence or brainwashing which would make such a state completely undesirable anyway. Regardless, I don't see this obsession with trying to establish a "stateless, classless society" these days, or, indeed, trying to give the so-called "poor" of today an illusion. Communism doesn't want to improve societal conditions for everybody. It is a revenge doctrine that wants to make the rich poorer and the poor to remain poor. The only 'poverty' that exists in Britain today is relative. Peter Hitchens said "the British ‘poor’ of today do not starve, do not freeze, do not go without medical treatment – as truly poor people across the world undoubtedly still do." and that a claim of poverty is "a lie the Left uses to destroy the middle class". I totally concur.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    ... Get real please. Hierarchy is ALL there is. ...
    Then you have nothing to worry about, presumably? lol
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Then you have nothing to worry about, presumably? lol
    Well I do if your lot are intending to try and put into practice your odious social experiment at the expense of millions of lives; yes.
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    I do not lie awake at night worrying about a population of 70 million.
    Well then he is simply a fool isn't he - one whose beliefs have blinded him to the facts - the facts fall on deaf ears. Unless he wants labour to head for electoral annihilation he might do well to consider that UKIP came second place in the European elections - this is not without significance. Only yesterday there was a BBC London news feature on how schools are struggling to cope with 'the population surge' - what this mysterious surge was or what the cause if it was they did not seem to care to elaborate on of course.

    The fact simply was there is a 'population surge' which meant that one school was having to turn a cleaning store room into a makeshift classroom.

    I'm happy to live in a society where we not only welcome those coming to live and work in this country, but also where we can go and live and work in other countries."
    This is an interesting line - the suggestion that 'we' welcome immigrants... Implicit in it is the idea that there is a collective 'we' who belong together and who are able to provide hospitality and welcome newcomers to this country while they find their feet. But is that really so?

    It seems to me that most English people feel disillusioned, and feel a collective sense of loss that this country is no longer 'ours' anymore. A loss of control over our country means hospitality is no longer possible in the way that it has been in the past - for hospitality implies ownership. it is not 'we' the English people who invite newcomers but 'they' - the liberal elite. Resentment follows as a matter of course...
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    It's not 'unintellectual', it's probably just that I have a greater feeling of empathy or nostalgia.
    Empathy and nostalgia are not good enough reasons to base any kind of decision on and that kind of sentimentality should never be allowed into politics. Tradition for tradition's sake is utterly meaningless. If you want people to take pride in being English you should work to make England a country to be proud of, not desperately clutch at relics of a bygone era.
 
 
 
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