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Socialists are lazy and jealous. Do you agree? Watch

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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    I think it has more to do with feelings of inferiority and powerlessness rather than lazyness or jealousy. This is why they identify with 'downtrodden' groups and other people they feel are in the same position they feel themselves to be. Often it is subconcious, barely admitted to themselves or a half remembered feeling, this is why they don't identify it and deal with it directly instead of finding other outlets for it.
    I don't see people like Tony Benn as people furnished with feelings of inferiority and powerlessness when they were in their prime. In fact, I think your comment is a mere (and ironic) political dig motivated by your support for the BNP. Your assertions are without decent foundation.
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    I love Che Guevara too.
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    (Original post by Melancholy)
    I don't see people like Tony Benn as people furnished with feelings of inferiority and powerlessness when they were in their prime. In fact, I think your comment is a mere (and ironic) political dig motivated by your support for the BNP.
    I don't think it is only inferiority and powerlessness, it is a host of depressive tendencies, shame and guilt are common ones.

    Alot of the time lack of real goals leads people to left wing views I think. Lack of goals leads to boredom and then to feelings of frustration and powerlessness. This is why middle class people get involved with them, and people with alot of time (students), beacuse their needs are met and so other goals are superfluous, not real goals.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    I don't think it is only inferiority and powerlessness, it is a host of depressive tendencies, shame and guilt are common ones.

    Alot of the time lack of real goals leads people to left wing views I think. Lack of goals leads to boredom and then to feelings of frustration and powerlessness. This is why middle class people get involved with them, and people with alot of time (students), beacuse their needs are met and so other goals are superfluous, not real goals.
    Again, I ask for concrete reasons to support what I can only interpret to be your half-hearted attempt at pyscho-analysis.

    I could equally paint a glorified picture of socialists using uplifting adjectives and highly romanticised language, and then assert an opinion that being right-wing means that you're irrational and/or heartless. Yet that's an useless interpretation without some form of decent evidence.

    Even beginning to pass a universal comment upon socialists is doomed to failure. They're not all anti-Zionists, for ease. Some of them are empowered by their political systems (to say that they feel inferior and powerless strikes me as ill-informed). What have they to feel guilty or shameful about? Did they personally exploit or murder somebody?

    Again, do you honestly believe that politicians such as Tony Benn lacked real goals and weren't busy enough? I could understand the interpretation that, in general, since students don't pay taxes then they don't mind calling for more taxes to fund a welfare state. That's a specific line of argument that can be expanded. However, you've offered no intelligent justification for your dribble.
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    (Original post by Melancholy)
    Again, I ask for concrete reasons to support what I can only interpret to be your half-hearted attempt at pyscho-analysis.

    I could equally paint a glorified picture of socialists using uplifting adjectives and highly romanticised language, and then assert an opinion that being right-wing means that you're irrational and/or heartless. Yet that's an useless interpretation without some form of decent evidence.

    Even beginning to pass a universal comment upon socialists is doomed to failure. They're not all anti-Zionists. Some of them are empowered by their political systems (to say that they feel inferior and powerless strikes me as ill-informed). What have they to feel guilty or shameful about? Did they personally exploit or murder somebody?

    Again, do you honestly believe that politicians such as Tony Benn lacked real goals and wasn't busy enough? I could understand the interpretation that, in general, since students don't pay taxes then they don't mind calling for more taxes to fund a welfare state. That's a specific line of argument that can be expanded. However, you've offered no intelligent justification for your dribble.
    Well I'm commenting on what I feel is the mass psychology of left wing movements, I don't think I'd be able to find any concrete evidence unless there was a sociological study into these things. Also it isn't about socialists in particular, but about all the left as a broad movement. Socialists are included but today it would more apply to civil rights campaigners, feminists, egalitarians ect.
    You don't think they are not motivated by the depressive tendencies I said? You think it is a genuine sympathy for humanity and feeling of injustice?
    Why when they argue do they go for the guilt route then? Why is, say, things like immigration justified with hatred (you colonised them so it is ok to do it back) if it was a genuinely beneficial thing (i.e came from a genuine feeling of sympathy) why wouldn't it be done more diplomatically, rather than with a "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude? This attitude is very common in feminism, Andrea Dworkin being a stunning example.

    I don't think Tony Benn was without goals, but I don't think the problem come from nesscessarily having no goals but from having no goals which have importance to yourself. Left wing views are a subsitute for this.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Well I'm commenting on what I feel is the mass psychology of left wing movements, I don't think I'd be able to find any concrete evidence unless there was a sociological study into these things. Also it isn't about socialists in particular, but about all the left as a broad movement. Socialists are included but today it would more apply to civil rights campaigners, feminists, egalitarians ect.
    Well, yes, and that rather renders most efforts to support your opinions utterly futile.

    You don't think they are not motivated by the depressive tendencies I said? You think it is a genuine sympathy for humanity and feeling of injustice?
    I think they do have a sympathy for humanity, incidently, but I'm more curious by these "depressive tendencies". When Aneurin Bevan worked for the creation of an NHS, you think he was feeling inferior, powerless, shameful and guilty? Do you not think the very fact that feminists protest to work for change rather falsifies your theory that they feel powerless or guilty? Rather, they don't feel inferior to males, they don't feel too powerless to promote change, and they feel that others should feel ashamed and guilty. Of course, this is pure generalisation, but it is at odds with your own rather broad statement on the left - something which the OP also attempted and for which he was partly ridiculed.

    Why when they argue do they go for the guilt route then? Why is, say, things like immigration justified with hatred (you colonised them so it is ok to do it back) if it was a genuinely beneficial thing (i.e came from a genuine feeling of sympathy) why wouldn't it be done more diplomatically, rather than with a "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude? This attitude is very common in feminism, Andrea Dworkin being a stunning example.
    Again, a rather risky generalisation. Who are "they"? Does every socialists employ the argument that since Britain colonised other nations we should be colonised ourselves? Of course, there are regrettable episodes in British history, but I personally wasn't involved in those episodes as an individual. It is right to remind ourselves of those unfortunate events (certain aspects of slavery and colonisation) and understand how we might have benefitted at their extent. This "I'm right and your wrong" attitude is not characteristic solely of socialists, nor indeed, all socialists.

    I don't think Tony Benn was without goals, but I don't think the problem come from nesscessarily having no goals but from having no goals which have importance to yourself. Left wing views are a subsitute for this.
    So Tony Benn should have been more selfish? ... I don't see any logical connection here. Tony Benn didn't have goals which were important to himself (well, his socialists beliefs were important to himself, as well as his career, surely?) so he therefore became a socialist. I don't see the point you're trying to make here. Is that a bad thing or ..?
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    (Original post by Gremlins)
    I though Austrians didn't believe in empirical research :p: but actually living in a capitalist society I can tell you I know plenty of people who work very, very hard but are paid not very much at all - surely the free market rewards us for how much our skills are needed, not how 'hard' we work, so someone can be a manual labourer who works incredibly hard but have their labour worth less than a lazy quantum physicist. Also, I find it fundamentally quite difficult to believe that Fred Goodwin worked more than 3500 times harder than an African farmer making a dollar a day.
    There's a big difference between saying that under capitalism, rewards track effort (which is clearly false, as it should be) and saying that under capitalism, effort and earnings are positively correlated. The latter is what I'm claiming, so pointing out that Fred Goodwin doesn't work 3500 times harder than an African farmer is not exactly a damning counterexample.

    Really? Sure? I'd like to know where you heard this, because by the look of it the correlation between IQ and earnings is minimal, and your looks (which hardly contribute to how well you can do a job, in most cases...) actually correlate more strongly with your pay than your brains do.
    The correlation between earnings and IQ in the UK and US is about 0.35, which is not exactly to be sniffed at. Look up some of Peter Saunders' work - it's all very interesting.
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    Suffragettes who wanted equal rights with men were simply jealous of men

    Blacks who wanted equal rights with whites were simply jealous of whites

    The reason we fought with Nazi Germany was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason we toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason 'capitalists' don't want to redistribute wealth is because they are selfish *******s

    The reason anyone tries to fight for social justice is obviously down to jealousy or laziness or some other character flaw. They can't actually want social equality because it's morally right! What a silly proposition.
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    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    Suffragettes who wanted equal rights with men were simply jealous of men

    Blacks who wanted equal rights with whites were simply jealous of whites

    The reason we fought with Nazi Germany was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason we toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason 'capitalists' don't want to redistribute wealth is because they are selfish *******s

    The reason anyone tries to fight for social justice is obviously down to jealousy or laziness or some other character flaw. They can't actually want social equality because it's morally right! What a silly proposition.
    How can you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously when your point consists of comparing the middle classes to Adolf ****ing Hitler and the Taliban?
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    How can you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously when your point consists of comparing the middle classes to Adolf ****ing Hitler and the Taliban?
    What where did I compare the middle classes to Hitler?

    I was merely trying to make the point that the argument against socialism by labelling it the retreat for lazy and morally corrupt people is a pretty libelous and childish argument.
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    (Original post by 300mg)
    I'm going to make a guess on your life: born into middle / upper middle class family, went to posh public school were you were surrounded only by other posh public school boys and you all held the general consensus that you somehow deserved all the wealth in your life because you "worked for it". Mummy and daddy probably bought you a nice car before you even started learning to drive and I'm sure they'll pay your university fees for you. Hell, I bet one day they'll even let you wipe your own arse and start to ween you away from the breast.

    Just a guess.
    Vitriol much?

    I was born into an upper middle class family and went to private school - but I was not surrounded by 'only posh girls'! My best friend got into the school on scholarship despite coming from one of the worst estates in the country. Financially I had a free ride through uni because my parents paid for everything, but the money I have now I earned (either directly or through investment of money I earned)...my parents have certainly NOT set me up for life and I wouldn't want them to.

    You're making a lot of assumptions without knowing the full story, don't judge all people from wealthy backgrounds as being alike...I can assure you, we're not!


    With respect to the OP:

    I'm sure there are some lazy socialists, but there lazy people in all areas or society and in all political spheres...it's not attributable to a particular political philosophy.

    There does, in many cases, appear to be a element of jealousy...again, I'm sure not in all cases.
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    (Original post by Melancholy)
    Well, yes, and that rather renders most efforts to support your opinions utterly futile.

    I think they do have a sympathy for humanity, incidently, but I'm more curious by these "depressive tendencies". When Aneurin Bevan worked for the creation of an NHS, you think he was feeling inferior, powerless, shameful and guilty? Do you not think the very fact that feminists protest to work for change rather falsifies your theory that they feel powerless or guilty? Rather, they don't feel inferior to males, they don't feel too powerless to promote change, and they feel that others should feel ashamed and guilty. Of course, this is pure generalisation, but it is at odds with your own rather broad statement on the left - something which the OP also attempted and for which he was partly ridiculed.
    Feminists protest and want 'change' beacuse they feel themselves inferior to men. The motivation is powerlessness and inferiority, this goes for alot of other left wingers. Why would there be such desperation to promote women?

    Again, a rather risky generalisation. Who are "they"? Does every socialists employ the argument that since Britain colonised other nations we should be colonised ourselves? Of course, there are regrettable episodes in British history, but I personally wasn't involved in those episodes as an individual. It is right to remind ourselves of those unfortunate events (certain aspects of slavery and colonisation) and understand how we might have benefitted at their extent. This "I'm right and your wrong" attitude is not characteristic solely of socialists, nor indeed, all socialists.
    You wouldn't have to go far to find a left winger using that excuse, it has been used on here enough times.

    Also notice the masochistic and passive aggressive tactics of the left, chaining themselves, intentionally provoking violence and chaos. Which other political group does this?

    So Tony Benn should have been more selfish? ... I don't see any logical connection here. Tony Benn didn't have goals which were important to himself (well, his socialists beliefs were important to himself, as well as his career, surely?) so he therefore became a socialist. I don't see the point you're trying to make here. Is that a bad thing or ..?
    I've made the point a few times now.
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    Sorry but that's ********.

    A lot of hard-working, middle class intellectuals are socialists.

    Socialist aren't arguing for their own welfare in this world, but those who are left in poverty.

    I'm not even a socialist.
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    Childish much?

    I'm pretty sure socialists are wrong, but I certainly can't prove it. Nonsense like this lowers the tone of what could be an interesting philosophical debate. Am I next to believe that fiscal conservatives dance on the graves of the poor?
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    Not just lazy and jealous, but stupid also. Every single socialist society in history has flopped, every complete capitalist one has flourished, it is so unbelievably obvious, so they are stupid.
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    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    Suffragettes who wanted equal rights with men were simply jealous of men

    Blacks who wanted equal rights with whites were simply jealous of whites

    The reason we fought with Nazi Germany was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason we toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan was because we were jealous of their success

    The reason 'capitalists' don't want to redistribute wealth is because they are selfish *******s

    The reason anyone tries to fight for social justice is obviously down to jealousy or laziness or some other character flaw. They can't actually want social equality because it's morally right! What a silly proposition.
    Best post in the entire thread.

    This type of nonsense lowers the tone of D&D and of political debate on the whole. Take it back to the playground please, along with "your mum" jokes.
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    This thread is juvenile in the extreme; are socialists "lazy and jealous"? Are conservatives fat and ugly?
    What about if you are becoming successful at the expense of others, i.e through exploitation of your workers? Socialism ultimately works for a better, fairer and more equal society and one that is rid of the problems that encompass capitalism (income disparity for example).
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    (Original post by Georgecopter)
    The reason 'capitalists' don't want to redistribute wealth is because they are selfish *******s
    Of course it is. If you're not selfish, then you fail at being human so far as I'm concerned.

    The reason anyone tries to fight for social justice is obviously down to jealousy or laziness or some other character flaw. They can't actually want social equality because it's morally right! What a silly proposition.
    LOL 'social justice'.

    How has equality between all persons ever been morally right? What morality is this?
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    This thread is a joke. Im a right-winger, but i do respect people who stand by their opinions, which includes socialists. Its just two different groupings of people which believe society can be best run through a use of a certain philosophy. It is not connected to certain personality traits. I am no more selfish and exploitative than my feminist, socialist friend is lazy and jealous. Its only an opinion on one strand of life, nothing as ridiculous as you are suggesting. Go have a cup of tea and forget about it.
    Rich
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    (Original post by L i b)
    LOL 'social justice'.

    How has equality between all persons ever been morally right? What morality is this?
    The morality of these guys;



 
 
 
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