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    (Original post by Voluntas Mos Victum)
    I agree to an extent, yet I also believe BNP policy is not 100% protectionist, but just protectionist where it most likely going to be beneficial in the long term. If it is clear that foreign industry would be far more beneficial for the country in the long-term for a specific product or industry than I think allowances would be made.
    But how do you then decide what industry will be beneficial in the long-term with huge amounts of taxpayers money, and which ones will STILL fail and therefore be more overtly a waste of everyones money?

    You enter the realms of crystal ball economics: what if they get it wrong and servises provided decades later and still worse than their foreign counterparts? Do you say woops, sorry Mr taxpayer, you spent billions of your hard earned cash on that over the years and it was actually all for nothing. This is one of the industries that we actually need to make exceptions for and embrace free trade for now.

    There is such an easy solution to the dilemma, let the public choose what is worth funding and what is not - let the public decide what the best use of their money, which they worked for and are entitled to, is. Have free and fair trade on every product and every servise at all times with all nations (with one exception: for political reasons a nation may refuse to trade with a country e.g. I would not trade with Zimbabwe currently.)

    I feel the mining industry is a fairly weak example,though. Whilst mining in this country isn't the strongest option cost-wise, what it would do is rebuild communities riddled by unemployment and therefore various social problems ever since the deliberate dismantling of British mining industry.Some things are more important than short term financial gain.
    So you vote for the BNP and you oppose Thatcher and her privatising of the mines, and support old labour and their nationalisation of the mines? For me that is a suprise, but if any labour voters are reading this, take note, this is not unusual.

    What would reduce unemployment in broken northern communities is an end of the welfare state which combines with minimum wage laws to make it hardly anymore profitable for people to work. Combined with deregulation and lower taxes on industries (and on people themselves), millions more jobs would be created in these regions - but not in the failing mining industry which costs the taxpayers billions to hoist up and ruined our economy: but by products that are in demand by the public and which actually generate profit and stimulate the economy properly through voluntary choice, rather than coercion.

    Investment into technology combined with funding in various schemes, alongside a largely protectionist policy,would probably be the most successful in the long term.
    Investments from whom? Are you suggesting taxpayers fund the research sector of industries? Be careful with that money if it's not yours - what areas will it go into, how much will go into it, how much say in all this will the people funding it have?

    I don't see how this policy brings stability or long-term success. It creates the situation where waste is at an all time high, where every penny spent is constantly being question and scrutinised and mistakes will be made which waste money and create the need for a change in policy.

    Again, the solution to this is so simple - make it private and let the public be making the choice of how their money is best spent rather than leaving it upto the government to (often wrongly) decide.

    Do you support Brown with his bailouts of corporations incidently; or do you feel that baffoon doesn't know best where our money should be spent, and in reinvesting it badly (i.e. into failing industries, just like you'd do), he's literally burning taxpayers money. Total waste of our money, I hope you'll agree. One of the reasons the recession is not improving at all, in fact.

    Whilst I understand your sentiment on being told what to buy, there was a time when people would have been more than happy to suffer short term economic deficit in the knowledge they were funding British industry and providing the country and their local area with stable and productive employment.
    What's interesting is that under my government, and in my economic system - if you and other like minded people took pride in British-based companies to such an extent that you'd be willing to pay more for that then to get products from abroard, you could. If that is your value then good for you, and I support your right to do it.

    However under your system - if I want to buy a cheaper product from abroard, because that is my own value, I can't. You only leave choice for those who think exactly like you, you're not allowed to have different opinions it seems. This is what I strongly oppose - in principle it's rather akin to people saying that the BNP should not be allowed to enter debates. That's dogmatic to those of other beliefs and isolates them and doesn't take into consideration their values. I feel that is wrong, and I know you think so too - but why are you doing the same to me then when it comes to my right to purchase the goods that I want with the money that I earned?
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    "WEREN'T" defendable.
    Excellent. So why then do you persist in denying he has neo Nazi beliefs?


    Yes. And he was in his early 20s. Just as Peter Mandelson was a Communist in his early 20s, just as Gerry Adams was affiliated with the IRA, not just in his youth, but during his Sinn Fein years too. Just as John Bercow was an ardant rightest in his youth. As Christopher Hitchens was a Communist. Need I go on? Many young people are drawn in by totalitarian regimes. They see them as effective ways by which their ideals can be imposed.
    Yer, and I'm sure in 20 years time Mark Collet will be a non racist hippy with a black wife :rolleyes:


    Did I say there wouldn't? The only points in there which involve a majority of BNP VOTERS declaring their support are for such things as 'Islam', immigration and positive discrimination; which, as mainly working-class, wouldn't really come as a surprise. The Holocaust denial is shocking; but this is the vote - and only a small sample of the vote at that - not the membership.
    If you're looking for a full survey of all members you'll be waiting a very long time. It is however indicative of the fact that amongst BNP voters there's a much higher level of racism and xenophobia.


    I don't see why I should be accused of that when I'm sticking to reason whereas you're going off on the bandwagon with your fallacy of exclusion and straw-BNPs.
    Everything I said was true. You DO defend them continually, you WOULD vote for them under certain circumstances and you DO patronise and talk down to those who disagree with you.

    Still, at least I've got you to shut up about your ancestors eh? :wink2:
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    What a ****ing retard.

    He's comparing UAF to a totalitarian government and a brutal militia?

    Still, he's a fascist defending other fascists. Not surprising.

    Out of interest, are you English?
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    (Original post by PoliceStory)
    One of them had a hammer smashed in to his face. I'd consider that quite serious.
    I'm afraid I didn't know about that and you're right; that is quite serious. All battering a few of them will do will contribute to their martyr complexes and inspire more violence from them in return. I hope they find the perpetrator and lock him up for a while; that was a serious assault and obviously it'll do the anti-bnp-with-arguments-not-hysteria-crowd no favours if whoever did it is let off and the BNP can get on their pedestal about the liberal* PC establishment judges and their conspiracy agaisnt the few thousand or so True Patriots.**

    * I'm sure that as a fellow libertarian you resent the corruption of that word as much as I do. Congrats on being LPUK btw, I'm still considering it.

    ** they might have gotten hundreds of thousands of votes at the Euro Elections, but 1. That was the Euro Elections and it's mostly nutters who vote in those and 2. most of those would have been Labour voters sticking two fingers up at the Parliamentary Labour Party, they'll drift back when Cameron's in and the press switches from 'Immigration is The Great Satan!!!' and focus on unemployment; they'll probably be calling it "the Tory recession" a few months after the next general election. Deprived of a (dubiously) unwitting friendly media atmosphere the BNP will be back where they were; support for the BNP only ever fluctuates between 'low' and 'very low.'
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    (Original post by 123banana123)
    Out of interest, are you English?
    I am British by nationality and birth, but I am Persian by heritage.

    But I do live in England :tongue:
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    (Original post by robinson999)
    i'm taking a stand again the BNP race views and the fact they do come out with anti-homosexuality remarks, and stuff like that, god any one want any sort of freedom to choice what sex they like, or which religion to be, never said anything against protectionism or free trade, free trade allows for cheaper goods which is always good, the down side some people lose their jobs which is not so good, allowing free trade within the EU is not a bad move
    So you commit to no opinion. Tell me, do you embrace total free trade, like the libertarian party does. Or do you condone protectionism like labour and the bnp both do?

    Incidently I fully support gay rights, but I still accept the bnp's right to protest against it, that is freedom of speech and democracy for you, some people do still care about those values even if you don't. I feel my points against are far more potent than yours; i.e. mine aren't ironically based around fascist principles of opposing free speech and the right to peacefully protest.
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    (Original post by Trichomania)
    Congrats on being LPUK btw, I'm still considering it.
    I think you should go for it, we're a growing party and there is definitely a place in UK politics for libertarian ideology, be a part of the change nice and early!
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    WTF

    Bloody well said. What a fantastic speech from a man I usually despise.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    I am British by nationality and birth, but I am Persian by heritage.

    But I do live in England :tongue:
    I assume you are not religious?
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    I assume you are not religious?
    I do not subscribe to organised religion.

    I am undecided about personal belief in god :tongue:
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    I do not subscribe to organised religion.

    I am undecided about personal belief in god :tongue:
    Me too :cool:
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    I think you should go for it, we're a growing party and there is definitely a place in UK politics for libertarian ideology, be a part of the change nice and early!
    But I still like being a Lib Dem; albeit one who is far more economically liberal and not concerned with telling people off for smoking or not recycling than the average Lib Dem. Plus I don't necessarily think total withdrawal from the EU is a good idea, it might seem like a bloated mess of beaurocracy now but I'm the sort of optimist who'd like to see it reformed. I really do love the idea of the EU as an international single currency zone commited to free trade and unrestricted enterprise and think it's achievable with a lot of clear headed reform.

    For now consider me a lib dem in the vein of these guys.
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    (Original post by Trichomania)
    But I still like being a Lib Dem; albeit one who is far more economically liberal and not concerned with telling people off for smoking or not recycling than the average Lib Dem. Plus I don't necessarily think total withdrawal from the EU is a good idea, it might seem like a bloated mess of beaurocracy now but I'm the sort of optimist who'd like to see it reformed. I really do love the idea of the EU as an international single currency zone commited to free trade and unrestricted enterprise and think it's achievable with a bit of clear headed reform.

    For now consider me a lib dem in the vein of these guys.
    "international single currency zone"

    If you believe in any "single currency" that isn't an international commodity currency, you're not a Libertarian :wink2:
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    Finally the indoctrinated British people are beginning to realise he actually has something to offer.
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    (Original post by Trichomania)
    But I still like being a Lib Dem; albeit one who is far more economically liberal and not concerned with telling people off for smoking or not recycling than the average Lib Dem. Plus I don't necessarily think total withdrawal from the EU is a good idea, it might seem like a bloated mess of beaurocracy now but I'm the sort of optimist who'd like to see it reformed. I really do love the idea of the EU as an international single currency zone commited to free trade and unrestricted enterprise and think it's achievable with a lot of clear headed reform.

    For now consider me a lib dem in the vein of these guys.
    The EU and free trade, bah. They screw over Africa with their tariffs and for that insult to freedom alone they ought to be opposed by any libertarian. But it extends far beyond that, the EU would not even allow member states to legalise all drugs etc

    If LPUK were in power you would be happy to see us leaving the EU, I assure you, as the UK would then embrace free and fair trade with ALL nations at all times. Regulations and taxes on business would be minimal, and measures would be taken against corporatism.

    That kind of centralised power is also out of touch with local issues, the wants the needs of our public. Politics needs to be more spread out and decentralised, not the opposite. At the very least the people deserve a choice on whether or not they should be a part of this institution!

    Sorry to ramble at you a little, I do respect the lib dems and especially their libertarian branch - I often think I'd rather the lib dems were in power than the tories, I'm undecided on that particular choice. Though it's a moot point as I support neither, LPUK represent my views much more consistently - they really stand up for what they believe in, refuse corporate donations etc, and I respect that. :yep:
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    "international single currency zone"

    If you believe in any "single currency" that isn't an international commodity currency, you're not a Libertarian :wink2:
    Whoops I meant 'common' currency (I think, you're obviously more versed in these things than me). I apologise for my error. :P
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    (Original post by Trichomania)
    Whoops I meant 'common' currency (I think, you're obviously more versed in these things than me). I apologise for my error. :P
    Common currency is much the same thing as single currency. A fiat central bank managing all of Europe has already been seen to be a disaster. A single gold-backed currency for all of Europe, however, would be worthwhile. The problem is that a gold currency limits Government spending so nobody on the left or the statist right would advocate it.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    But how do you then decide what industry will be beneficial in the long-term with huge amounts of taxpayers money, and which ones will STILL fail and therefore be more overtly a waste of everyones money?

    You enter the realms of crystal ball economics: what if they get it wrong and servises provided decades later and still worse than their foreign counterparts? Do you say woops, sorry Mr taxpayer, you spent billions of your hard earned cash on that over the years and it was actually all for nothing. This is one of the industries that we actually need to make exceptions for and embrace free trade for now.
    I think a lot of these things are common sense- in the cases of industries which clearly would not be best suited for Britain then protectionist policies would be loosened as necessary. However, maintaining a mostly protectionist policy results in the growth of British industry, which should be a priority yet would be harmed even more greatly by free trade and globalisation.

    Protectionism also leads to self sufficency, which would be a benefit the government and people put before short-term economic deficit.

    Also remember that even if certain industries were supported which would later be deemed as failures, it should not receive total condemnation from the British public as it will have helped fight unemployment and created stability in the job market for millions of people with little employment prospects beforehand.

    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    So you vote for the BNP and you oppose Thatcher and her privatising of the mines, and support old labour and their nationalisation of the mines? For me that is a suprise, but if any labour voters are reading this, take note, this is not unusual.

    What would reduce unemployment in broken northern communities is an end of the welfare state which combines with minimum wage laws to make it hardly anymore profitable for people to work. Combined with deregulation and lower taxes on industries (and on people themselves), millions more jobs would be created in these regions - but not in the failing mining industry which costs the taxpayers billions to hoist up and ruined our economy: but by products that are in demand by the public and which actually generate profit and stimulate the economy properly through voluntary choice, rather than coercion.
    With regards to the first paragraph, yes, that is pretty much where I stand.

    I appreciate the mining example goes against this, however BNP policy does not always lead to the supporting of old,failing industries. It instead seeks for Britain to lead the way in modern and technology based improvements on certain problems,which would not only benefit future generations in Britain but would also be able to export on a mass scale.

    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Investments from whom? Are you suggesting taxpayers fund the research sector of industries? Be careful with that money if it's not yours - what areas will it go into, how much will go into it, how much say in all this will the people funding it have?
    I am suggesting this. By going into a research sector which looks at long-term viability rather than short-term gain, there could be a lot of money to be made from British industry being created in,for example, various environmental products. This would not only benefit British people in the future, but also provide very profitable export opportunities in the future.

    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    Do you support Brown with his bailouts of corporations incidently; or do you feel that baffoon doesn't know best where our money should be spent, and in reinvesting it badly (i.e. into failing industries, just like you'd do), he's literally burning taxpayers money. Total waste of our money, I hope you'll agree. One of the reasons the recession is not improving at all, in fact.
    He could be reinvesting money better by all means, but he is only under such scrutiny as a result of the recession at the moment ( as you pointed out). The recession was caused largely be greedy short-termist capitalism and this is another thing the BNP seek to combat,with future generations and economic stability in mind.

    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    What's interesting is that under my government, and in my economic system - if you and other like minded people took pride in British-based companies to such an extent that you'd be willing to pay more for that then to get products from abroard, you could. If that is your value then good for you, and I support your right to do it.

    However under your system - if I want to buy a cheaper product from abroard, because that is my own value, I can't. You only leave choice for those who think exactly like you, you're not allowed to have different opinions it seems. This is what I strongly oppose - in principle it's rather akin to people saying that the BNP should not be allowed to enter debates. That's dogmatic to those of other beliefs and isolates them and doesn't take into consideration their values. I feel that is wrong, and I know you think so too - but why are you doing the same to me then when it comes to my right to purchase the goods that I want with the money that I earned?
    Again, I understand and sympathise with your sentiment regarding your right to buy what you want, however in reality under your system British industry would not exist in many areas for me to even have the choice to buy British products. Free trade does lead to a definite decrease in British industry in most areas, and helps foreign industry more than it does British, even if there are individual short term losses to the general population in various areas.

    As to your second paragraph, I would say that foreign produce will not be completely done any with across every area,and also that you need to remember a BNP Britain is far more patriotic and nationalistic to the Britain we know at present- this goes for the citizens as well as just the government. I know this won't go down too well, but I think the "right" to buy foreign produce is a right which people should,and would, be willing to sacrifice for the greater good of self sufficency and economic stability.
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    (Original post by olly_springs)
    Finally the indoctrinated British people are beginning to realise he actually has something to offer.
    Yeah, entertainment value
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    Yeah, entertainment value
    So you support UAF and also government intervention abroard?

    I don't think they're laughing matters, really. Robinson here is much more amusing!
 
 
 
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