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    (Original post by Dionysus)
    I'm actually a Fascism specialist, if you must know. And to be more precise, the BNP are a National Socialist Racist party, more comparable with Nazi Germany than the Partito Nazionale Fascista.

    The BNP really are not worthy of ideological discussion of where they might fit into a modern Europe, however. Their interest is academic only. They are a bunch of thugs with no place in professional politics. People discussing them in terms of 'policies' just gives them legitimacy. The amount of moronic discussions I see on here with people actually discussing the BNP's merits vs drawbacks is beyond belief. They have no merits, they are inherently anti-democratic and hateful. Giving them a platform is exactly what they want.
    So, in other words, you don't want to hear them because of your own - unfounded - prejudice? Nice. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Prospera)
    What a comprehensive, cohesive argument. Not juvenile in the slightest.
    Summing up Nick Griffin doesn't require a comprehensive, cohesive argument. He is a fascist ****. Nonetheless that was a surprisingly good speech.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Summing up Nick Griffin doesn't require a comprehensive, cohesive argument. He is a fascist ****. Nonetheless that was a surprisingly good speech.
    ^ What I was saying, except foxo said it better.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Summing up Nick Griffin doesn't require a comprehensive, cohesive argument. He is a fascist ****. Nonetheless that was a surprisingly good speech.
    Quite simply shows the ignorance among you types of people doesn't it. Makes you think who the intolerant actually are.
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    The major problem with Griffin spouting such rhetoric about us not getting involved in Iran is an understanding of the responsibility that Britain has to the wider world. When Gordon Brown rejects intervention (if he was to do so) this would have to go hand in hand with an alternative solution to gain some sort of peace there. If we are to save British lives we gain nothing by simultaneously allowing many Iranians to perish.

    Enjoyed his UAF rant, and his derision of 'hypocrisy' later on in the speech- not noting that a complaint against a hateful group by the leader of the BNP constitutes such a wonderful example of it itself. Lovely.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Quite simply shows the ignorance among you types of people doesn't it. Makes you think who the intolerant actually are.
    If anything, you've just been extremely ignorant in assuming that you know my anything about my political leanings and that I'm intolerant. I'm not suggesting that anything should be done about the BNP. They're a perfectly legitimate party who evidently represent some portion of the electorate, and I strongly believe in liberty and freedom of speech. That doesn't mean I'm being unreasonable in stating that Nick Griffin is a "fascist ****" though.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    If anything, you've just been extremely ignorant in assuming that you know my anything about my political leanings and that I'm intolerant. I'm not suggesting that anything should be done about the BNP. They're a perfectly legitimate party who evidently represent some portion of the electorate, and I strongly believe in liberty and freedom of speech. That doesn't mean I'm being unreasonable in stating that Nick Griffin is a "fascist ****" though.
    Erm, you're not being tolerant in that you seem to be trying your hardest to look at anything but official policy. Honestly, you people are nothing but lazy intellectual lightweights.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Erm, you're not being tolerant in that you seem to be trying your hardest to look at anything but official policy. Honestly, you people are nothing but lazy intellectual lightweights.
    Having used this site for four years, with its absurd fixation on what was until lately an entirely insignificant far-right group (now it's just hugely insignificant), I'm quite familiar with official BNP policies and how they've changed lately. Probably more so than most of the absolute cretins who recently voted for them on a whim. Thanks to the knowledge I've acquired, I can quite safely say that I find the BNP with its laughable rhetoric and that soporific **** Nick Griffin to be 'fascist *****'.

    Now, other than using a highly pedantic definition of the word 'fascist' as you did with someone earlier, would you be able to explain in what ways you think I'm wrong in this opinion, rather than just insinuating that I'm a brainwashed pinko?
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Having used this site for four years, with its absurd fixation on what was until lately an entirely insignificant far-right group (now it's just hugely insignificant), I'm quite familiar with official BNP policies and how they've changed lately. Probably more so than most of the absolute cretins who recently voted for them on a whim. Thanks to the knowledge I've acquired, I can quite safely say that I find the BNP with its laughable rhetoric and that soporific **** Nick Griffin to be 'fascist *****'.

    Now, other than using a highly pedantic definition of the word 'fascist' as you did with someone earlier, would you be able to explain in what ways you think I'm wrong in this opinion, rather than just insinuating that I'm a brainwashed pinko?
    I guess that if you could provide reason behind your position so that I can easily refute it (as I've done hundreds of times before) then I could.

    Plus, my definition of the word 'fascist' was not pedantic at all. That is the definition of fascist. Using it in any other context is either dumb, ignorant or emotive.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I guess that if you could provide reason behind your position so that I can easily refute it (as I've done hundreds of times before) then I could.

    Plus, my definition of the word 'fascist' was not pedantic at all. That is the definition of fascist. Using it in any other context is either dumb, ignorant or emotive.
    Frankly I don't have the time or inclination to scrutinise all of their policies in detail, so I'll put this quite succinctly and await your response.

    This is the definition of fascism in the OED:

    fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism)
    noun
    an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
    • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

    The BNP, and therefore Nick Griffin, fills all of the criteria here. Other than debating that they're technically not a right-wing group (and there is some truth in that with regard to some of their economic and social policies, for example), I can't see how one could convincingly refute that some of their policies are not authoritarian and nationalistic (e.g. immediate cessation to immigration and asylum seekers with the intent of protecting the 'native British people'), and that offering incentives to current immigrants to get the hell out of the UK isn't in some way intolerant. Really, I'm not at all bothered if you happen to support a fascist group - it just stumps me that you're too worried about the connotations of that word to admit it.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Frankly I don't have the time or inclination to scrutinise all of their policies in detail, so I'll put this quite succinctly and await your response.

    This is the definition of fascism in the OED:

    fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism)
    noun
    an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
    • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

    The BNP, and therefore Nick Griffin, fills all of the criteria here. Other than debating that they're technically not a right-wing group (and there is some truth in that with regard to some of their economic and social policies, for example), I can't see how one could convincingly refute that some of their policies are not authoritarian and nationalistic (e.g. immediate cessation to immigration and asylum seekers with the intent of protecting the 'native British people'), and that offering incentives to current immigrants to get the hell out of the UK isn't in some way intolerant. Really, I'm not at all bothered if you happen to support a fascist group - it just stumps me that you're too worried about the connotations of that word to admit it.
    I don't support them anyway; but you're horribly misusing the word authoritarian in its context regarding 'fascism'. Authoritarian fascism is, as I said, when you suppress political opponents, establish a one-party state and censor the media. I don't see how stopping immigration is exactly authoritarian in that sense. :lolwut: Nor do I see how voluntary resettlement is. Because, no matter how much you'd like to not believe it, voluntary resettlement will be a necessary option in a few years time when there are no longer enough houses to be filled, and the pathetically two-laned M6 is clogged, contributing excessive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere etc. This will be a policy any party will be proposing in due course, regardless. As I said, you have a pretty warped view of fascism if you think it applies to a party that has internal elections annually, has been elected to the European Parliament by means of the democratic process, doesn't use political violence against opponents (unlike the UAF), doesn't have any intention to establish a one-party state etc.
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    Out of interest, why are you so ardent in defending them if you're not a supporter? If I called Labour 'fascists', would you also jump to their defence? At the least, admit you've some admiration for them.

    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I don't support them anyway; but you're horribly misusing the word authoritarian in its context regarding 'fascism'. Authoritarian fascism is, as I said, when you suppress political opponents, establish a one-party state and censor the media. I don't see how stopping immigration is exactly authoritarian in that sense. :lolwut:
    As you said, it's not authoritarian in that sense. I'm using the word authoritarian as in highly illiberal policies, not as in undemocratic. Besides: they couldn't establish a piss up in a brewery at their current levels of support, let alone establish a one party state or control the media. Going by your line of argument, the Nazi Party wasn't fascist back when they had a few hundred members. I'm not suggesting that the BNP would establish a one-party state, but they certainly couldn't even if they wanted to.

    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Nor do I see how voluntary resettlement is
    Actually, if you look back you'll see I described that as 'intolerant'.

    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Because, no matter how much you'd like to not believe it, voluntary resettlement will be a necessary option in a few years time when there are no longer enough houses to be filled, and the pathetically two-laned M6 is clogged, contributing excessive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere etc. This will be a policy any party will be proposing in due course, regardless.
    Total ********. If anything even like this happens within the next five years, send me an email as a reminder and I'll send you £50 in the post.

    By the way, has the BNP used the carbon emissions as reasoning for that policy? That's absolutely ******* brilliant, you should suggest it to Nick Griffin himself. If it goes well, maybe he'll even get solar panels on his roof with the union jack painted on them.

    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    As I said, you have a pretty warped view of fascism if you think it applies to a party that has internal elections annually has been elected to the European Parliament by means of the democratic process, doesn't use political violence against opponents (unlike the UAF), doesn't have any intention to establish a one-party state etc.
    How about nouveau fascists then? Has that term been coined yet?
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    (Original post by robinson999)
    Nick Griffin did deny holocaust

    looking at the comments people been making about that video, it is worrying how many people buy into that idea, a lot of it is just neo-nazi, they say that they are the answer, when they are the problem, they think everyone supports them, the army, vets, people who know what going on, any one says anything against them gets attacked for it, nice party that is, its a shame people believe what he says
    Probably already been done,but I must address the idiocy present in that post.

    They say they are the answer? Yeah, because every political party doesn't already do that do they...

    Just because the current political elite and parties are all three heads of the same beast, that doesn't mean as soon as someone comes out with something different,and dare I say patriotic, that they are a neo-nazi. What a ridiculous claim to make.

    When they are the problem? Again,absolutely ridiculous and unfounded claim. Are you suggesting, in reference to this specific speech, that the far right are the reason we take such an issue with Iran?
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Out of interest, why are you so ardent in defending them if you're not a supporter? If I called Labour 'fascists', would you also jump to their defence? At the least, admit you've some admiration for them.
    He has a picture in his sig insinuating that Labour are fascist, so I can't imagine he would.

    I'm not sure what definition of fascist results in Labour being given the designation but the BNP avoiding it, but it's the one NB is using.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    He has a picture in his sig insinuating that Labour are fascist, so I can't imagine he would.

    I'm not sure what definition of fascist results in Labour being given the designation but the BNP avoiding it, but it's the one NB is using.
    Hah. Well spotted.
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    (Original post by foxo)
    Out of interest, why are you so ardent in defending them if you're not a supporter? If I called Labour 'fascists', would you also jump to their defence? At the least, admit you've some admiration for them.
    If you called Labour 'fascists' then I'd assume it's nothing more than emotive. Simple as that.

    (Original post by foxo)
    As you said, it's not authoritarian in that sense. I'm using the word authoritarian as in highly illiberal policies, not as in undemocratic. Besides: they couldn't establish a piss up in a brewery at their current levels of support, let alone establish a one party state or control the media. Going by your line of argument, the Nazi Party wasn't fascist back when they had a few hundred members. I'm not suggesting that the BNP would establish a one-party state, but they certainly couldn't even if they wanted to.
    The Nazi Party had a fascist programme since 1921. It was never their intention to adhere to democracy. I also don't see the BNP use their non-existant paramilitary wing to go harassing Labour/Tory/Lib Dem politicians and pillaging synagogues. I don't really see your point behind the BNP's potency. I don't think anyone assumes they'll be in power any time soon. There'd be a lot of growth required beforehand (and probably a few nationalist states established on the continent).

    (Original post by foxo)
    Actually, if you look back you'll see I described that as 'intolerant'.
    Okay.

    (Original post by foxo)
    Total ********. If anything even like this happens within the next five years, send me an email as a reminder and I'll send you £50 in the post.

    By the way, has the BNP used the carbon emissions as reasoning for that policy? That's absolutely ******* brilliant, you should suggest it to Nick Griffin himself. If it goes well, maybe he'll even get solar panels on his roof with the union jack painted on them.
    I didn't say this would happen within the next five years anyway. It'll probably take a generation or two, in which time more immigrants have settled and produced offspring. It's a policy Japan has put in place to reduce their population level.

    (Original post by foxo)
    How about nouveau fascists then? Has that term been coined yet?
    No.

    So fascism is what you want it to be. :rolleyes: Nice.
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    (Original post by Andy the Anarchist)
    He has a picture in his sig insinuating that Labour are fascist, so I can't imagine he would.

    I'm not sure what definition of fascist results in Labour being given the designation but the BNP avoiding it, but it's the one NB is using.
    Interestingly enough, it's off the BNP website :giggle:
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    Interestingly enough, it's off the BNP website :giggle:
    No it isn't. :confused:
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    No it isn't.
    Lolololololol :hahaha:

    http://bnp.org.uk/files/2009/02/labo...xposed-new.jpg

    :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by foxo)
    How about nouveau fascists then? Has that term been coined yet?
    Not that I know of: but "national socialists" has all the appropiate connotations and is appropiate for the BNP as they're obviously nationalists but are also economically socialists.
 
 
 
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