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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    if only
    What a ******* stupid thing to say.
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    Actually you totally misunderstood what they are doing - they are transliterating. For example instead of "Jerusalem" being written there will be "Yerushallyim". And supposed to be a city beloved to all? Total ********, it only seems to be wanted when it is under Jewish control.
    Yes, I understood that. My point is that they are still removing the Arabic and English names for the cities though and replacing them with the Hebrew equivalent transliterated. It's just an attempt to further strip the cities of their authentic identity and paint a Jewish layer over them.

    Like I said earlier, it's a symbolic move. An attempt to eradicate the history of the cities. To the Arabs, it's not Jerusalem; it's Al Quds, and it should remain that way (not least of all for the 1.2m Arab Israeli citizens).

    And I second the call for you to watch the video. You believe in your arguments too much, and regurgitate the same things, often senselessly. I've seen the first quarter or so, and it's very good.

    it [Jerusalem] only seems to be wanted when it is under Jewish control
    Wanted by whom? And with what do you back this up?
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    The Israel lobby wouldn't be powerful if we didn't have such high support levels in the US... and lets be honest some 80% of American Jews voted for Obama - they don't give a **** about Israel. Our real supporters are the Evangelicals and conservatives not the liberal Jews.
    Good post.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    Yes, I understood that. My point is that they are still removing the Arabic and English names for the cities though and replacing them with the Hebrew equivalent transliterated. It's just an attempt to further strip the cities of their authentic identity and paint a Jewish layer over them.

    Like I said earlier, it's a symbolic move. An attempt to eradicate the history of the cities. To the Arabs, it's not Jerusalem; it's Al Quds, and it should remain that way (not least of all for the 1.2m Arab Israeli citizens).

    And I second the call for you to watch the video. You believe in your arguments too much, and regurgitate the same things, often senselessly. I've seen the first quarter or so, and it's very good.



    Wanted by whom? And with what do you back this up?
    I'll watch it at some point but it's very long. And until the first Aliyah Jerusalem was largely uninhabited and received little interest. When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem it was mostly maltreated and abandoned. I would have thought Jordan would have wanted it as it's capital.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    When have Israel fought alone? They've always had the backing of either Britain or the US (or both).

    Certainly Israel would not have acted with such vigour and bravado in the past were it not for the support of the US and any attempts to deny the Israel-US relationship and power of the Jewish lobby will always come across as feeble, IMO.


    False. In 1948, the Jewish state staved off 6 Arab armies (2 of them trained by the west) with a mere militia, while the west placed an arms embargo on Israel.

    In 1967 it did not receive any meaningfull aid from the US, while the USSR was massively supporting the Arabs. It still won a resounding victory in 6 days.
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    (Original post by danielj315)
    Yet when Israel did have to fight alone it did pretty well.
    Are you trying to say that the US should always intervene if Israel is being bullied by the Arab states? We've given them some land, we've given them a powerful military capable of scaring and/or destroying any foes in that part of the world. I think that was the normal thing to do. People keep crying about Palestine etc, if the Arab states cared so much, why don't THEY give Palestine a bit of their land and let them settle down in THEIR country?

    However I do agree that the US need to take control and decide whether or not to fully back or oppose some of Israel's actions(look at Gaza at the start of the year)
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    What a ******* stupid thing to say.
    why... we'd return back to 1948 and we'll end this animosity with Muslims
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    The state of how Israel is now is due to the strong relationship between them and US, without US Israel would not have been here today.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    why... we'd return back to 1948 and we'll end this animosity with Muslims

    First of all, not only would you be destroying a nation, but doing precisely what you claim to rail against. Secondly, if you think Israel is the sole (or even the main) reason for Muslim animosity, you are sorely deluded.
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    (Original post by *A_S_H*)
    The state of how Israel is now is due to the strong relationship between them and US, without US Israel would not have been here today.


    Israel won its toughest wars without any significant outside help (1948 was won despite an arms embargo on Israel).
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    (Original post by Axes)
    Israel won its toughest wars without any significant outside help (1948 was won despite an arms embargo on Israel).
    so all the weapons that are used in the war are bought by the people of isarel, ?
    not at all
    A rich country like US provides them with these types of things
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    (Original post by *A_S_H*)
    so all the weapons that are used in the war are bought by the people of isarel, ?
    not at all
    A rich country like US provides them with these types of things

    You should re-read my sentence: Israel won its toughest war without any meaningfull outside aid. Simply put, I was speaking about the war of independance and the six day war. In the second, Israel did not receive any free equipment, while its Arab counterparts were being flooded with Soviet equipment. In the first, Israel fought with an American/European arms embargo slapped on it, against Arab armies trained by the British.

    I hope that is more clear.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    You should re-read my sentence: Israel won its toughest war without any meaningfull outside aid. Simply put, I was speaking about the war of independance and the six day war. In the second, Israel did not receive any free equipment, while its Arab counterparts were being flooded with Soviet equipment. In the first, Israel fought with an American/European arms embargo slapped on it, against Arab armies trained by the British.

    I hope that is more clear.
    oh ok so this is regarding the wars that israel fought in the mid 20th centruy, and now since then the realtionship between US and Israel has strengthened, all wars taking place which involve them now are fully supported by US...
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    (Original post by *A_S_H*)
    oh ok so this is regarding the wars that israel fought in the mid 20th centruy, and now since then the realtionship between US and Israel has strengthened, all wars taking place which involve them now are fully supported by US...

    True, but I was responding to your claim that Israel cant survive without the US. Evidently, it did pretty well by itself, when it wasnt supported by the US.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    True, but I was responding to your claim that Israel cant survive without the US. Evidently, it did pretty well by itself, when it wasnt supported by the US.
    them times were different higher advances in modern technology now and no doubt all the weapons now are provided by US that's all i wanted to get across, thnks
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    (Original post by borismor)
    The American academia (and actually everywhere, ironically including Israel) is not pro Israeli at all. Far from it. So there's no sense in what you're saying.
    Nice strawman attack. I didn't actually say academics were pro Israel, i said many are fearful of talking negatively about Israel. But of course, there is no sense in that.

    Watch the talk. The two authors talk about how they've been called anti semites, have had talks cancelled because of pressure from the lobby and have had their book compared to the protocols of the elders of zion.

    An MIT lecturer when asking a question clearly states that he feels that the lobby has done everything in its power to stifle debate.

    It is also acknowledged by members of the audience along with the speakers that the media in the US is extremely pro Israel, they even say more so than the Israeli media. They say that in Israel and the UK there is much richer debate than the US citing the US lobby as the cause for the lack of richness as many are muzzled.

    But of course, there is no sense in it at all. Watch the talk.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    First of all, not only would you be destroying a nation, but doing precisely what you claim to rail against. Secondly, if you think Israel is the sole (or even the main) reason for Muslim animosity, you are sorely deluded.
    No, their residents will go back to where they came from (Eastern Europe, US etc...) Israel is the main reason for Muslim extremism, they see their Muslim brothers being oppressed by the Israelis and are sponsored by the West.

    Many Muslims do not share the views of Bin Laden if you actually think about it. Bin Laden's main problem with the US is that it has a military base in Saudi Arabia (Muslim holy land) and he despises the Saudi Monarchy, alongside with Al Zawhiri who hates the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt which he sees as supported by the US.

    Lose Israel, 95% of Muslim extremism will disappear.
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    No, their residents will go back to where they came from (Eastern Europe, US etc...)

    Over 70% of Israeli's were born in Israel. And over 50% of them did not come from Europe, but were ethnically cleansed from the Arab world.

    Israel is the main reason for Muslim extremism, they see their Muslim brothers being oppressed by the Israelis and are sponsored by the West.


    No it's not. Most of it derives from western colonialism, western/soviet intervention during the cold war, the Iraq war, plus the fact that the muslim world includes many extremists who fear western cultural influence on their traditional societies.
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    (Original post by George231086)
    Nice strawman attack. I didn't actually say academics were pro Israel, i said many are fearful of talking negatively about Israel. But of course, there is no sense in that.
    Yes, there is no sense in that because they do talk against Israel all the time, otherwise how would I know about it?

    Watch the talk. The two authors talk about how they've been called anti semites, have had talks cancelled because of pressure from the lobby and have had their book compared to the protocols of the elders of zion.
    An MIT lecturer when asking a question clearly states that he feels that the lobby has done everything in its power to stifle debate.
    Who are the these people of the "Jewish Lobby"? Seeing that most American Jews are democratic liberals I'd really like to know.

    It is also acknowledged by members of the audience along with the speakers that the media in the US is extremely pro Israel, they even say more so than the Israeli media. They say that in Israel and the UK there is much richer debate than the US citing the US lobby as the cause for the lack of richness as many are muzzled.
    And of course they are all very objective and unbiased about it.

    But of course, there is no sense in it at all. Watch the talk.
    I did. It's rubbish.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    No, their residents will go back to where they came from (Eastern Europe, US etc...)
    I didn't come from these places, nor did any of my friends.

    You're talking about places which Jews were kicked out of.

    Lose Israel, 95% of Muslim extremism will disappear.
    That's like saying -

    If you stay in your house for your entire life, the chances you'll get robbed in the street are zero!
 
 
 
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