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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    With all due respect it is rather controversial to argue that Jews worldwide are abusing the Holocaust and exaggerating it to serve their own needs and to save Israel from any discrimination. It reeks of conspiracy theory.
    Abuse and exaggeration are loaded words that don't accurately portray the argument. Supporters of a special relationship may see past persecution as reasonable justification for that special relationship - that is not really abuse or exaggeration of history as much as an honest appraisal on their part of the moral consequences of history. The counter-argument is that past persecution does not morally require a special relationship or unconditional support in the present and that, indeed, the current (i.e. ~2007) nature of the special relationship damages the interests of both the US and Israel, so that, even if one disagreed with the moral assessment of whether past persecution deserves special treatment, one need not disagree with the main thesis of the position. That is hardly controversial!
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    I have to thank Axes for wonderfully illustrating the inability of some participants to debate this issue in the measured, sensible tone that I suggested would be beneficial to public discourse in post #54. It's almost as though he read what I wrote and set out to prove me right!
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    I have to thank Axes for wonderfully illustrating the inability of some participants to debate this issue in the measured, sensible tone that I suggested would be beneficial to public discourse in post #54. It's almost as though he read what I wrote and set out to prove me right!

    Im astounded that you can engage in such self-aggrandizement, as to claim that my opinion of W&M proves 'your' thesis rights. If their book is indeed a shoddy piece of research, and it targets Zionists in many of the methods used in the past to target Jews, then it is indeed biggoted and lacking any credibility. To sum, the best type of deceptive propaganda is one that contains a kernel of truth, followed by a good spin.

    One more thing, Kolya, "controvertial" is a very wide term, that can include simply 'biased' works, or straightforward propaganda. People who see W&M's work as propaganda should not be forced to either listen to their lectures or accept their lecture requests. Just like Holocaust deniers are sometimes denied lectures in universities (and that IS legitemate, I hope you will agree), so can other propagandists, or even 'controvertial figures'. It's W&M's right to say what they want, and it is the right of specific universities not to invite them to speak.
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    Abuse and exaggeration are loaded words that don't accurately portray the argument. Supporters of a special relationship may see past persecution as reasonable justification for that special relationship - that is not really abuse or exaggeration of history as much as an honest appraisal on their part of the moral consequences of history. The counter-argument is that past persecution does not morally require a special relationship or unconditional support in the present and that, indeed, the current (i.e. ~2007) nature of the special relationship damages the interests of both the US and Israel, so that, even if one disagreed with the moral assessment of whether past persecution deserves special treatment, one need not disagree with the main thesis of the position. That is hardly controversial!
    Actually abuse and exaggerate seem to be perfectly apt in describing say "The Holocaust Industry".
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    (Original post by dfjr)
    Why do the Evangelicals and conservatives support Israel?
    The Biblical promise to Abraham, “I will bless those that bless thee and I will curse them that curse thee,” (Genesis 12:3)

    Evangelical Christians believe a divine curse will fall on them if Israel is harmed.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    The Biblical promise to Abraham, “I will bless those that bless thee and I will curse them that curse thee,” (Genesis 12:3)

    Evangelical Christians believe a divine curse will fall on them if Israel is harmed.
    Oh, and isn't that the place where the mythical end happens? In Israel? And I wonder what happens to the Jews when homeboy JC returns again? Game's up for them, that's what!

    These Christians definitely have much love for the Jews! I wish they'd stop believing in those fairytales.
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    Israel are surrounded by enemies. But still they hold up strong. They have wonderful Nukes, Military, Weapons, Intelligence Agency and backing from the USA.
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    (Original post by Reefer)
    I wish they'd stop believing in those fairytales.
    I think the world would be a far more peaceful place if all people - Muslim, Christian, etc - stop believing in the fairy tales contained in their religions.
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    I would love if just for once we could have a debate that wasn't interspersed with posts that amount to "LOL religion" FFS we get that you're atheists, I'm not exactly religious either but please keep threads on topic and resist the urge to spout off about your particular religious affiliation or lack of it. It doesn't make you look cool and edgy, it's just annoying.
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    (Original post by Nefarious)
    I would love if just for once we could have a debate that wasn't interspersed with posts that amount to "LOL religion" FFS we get that you're atheists, I'm not exactly religious either but please keep threads on topic and resist the urge to spout off about your particular religious affiliation or lack of it. It doesn't make you look cool and edgy, it's just annoying.
    Well you're an idiot for assuming that my decision to post that comment was motivated by a desire to 'look cool' and 'edgy'. I saw another user argue that evangelical Americans ought to drop their fairytale beliefs re: Israel that's causing harm to world peace and I was merely trying to say that it's unfair to pick on evangelical Christians in the US and that the world would probably be a more peaceful place if all religious people dropped their fairy tale beliefs.
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    (Original post by JectioN)
    I saw another user argue that evangelical Americans ought to drop their fairytale beliefs re: Israel that's causing harm to world peace and I was merely trying to say that it's unfair to pick on evangelical Christians in the US and that the world would probably be a more peaceful place if all religious people dropped their fairy tale beliefs.
    Not sure if you're refering to my post but i certainly didn't mean that. I wish it was as simple as that as there is good movement in the US of the younger generation losing their religion.

    Tbh, my comment was related to a question posed about the reasons for Christian Zionism which is related to this topic. Nefarious, I really don't understand why you felt the topic was being derailed.

    Just to note, i don't think the world's problems will be solved if people gave up religion, it would just be replaced by some other human desire for order and acheivement. To say that it would, would be a major Atheist cop-out (and a lot of Atheists are guilty of this).

    However, I dont see the problem with bringing religion up as a major problem when it comes to individual conflicts :yes:
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    (Original post by Reefer)
    Oh, and isn't that the place where the mythical end happens? In Israel? And I wonder what happens to the Jews when homeboy JC returns again? Game's up for them, that's what!

    These Christians definitely have much love for the Jews! I wish they'd stop believing in those fairytales.
    The "End Times" come, in Evangelical thinking, when god is ready. There is nothing people can or should do that can bring about this "second coming"

    We all know that "End Times" aren't coming, so in the meantime, the conservative Evangelical Christians are going to support Israel more strongly, consistently and unconditionally than any other American constituency, including American Jews.

    It's the Evangelicals that drive our foreign policy, not American jews. Something like 80% of them voted for Obama, who, with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter, could very well be the most anti-Israel president in all of US history.
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    It's not just that though, strategically a powerful Israel which holds western values is more aligned with American thinking than a corrupt infidel hating muslim middle east nation .
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    It's not just that though, strategically a powerful Israel which holds western values is more aligned with American thinking than a corrupt infidel hating muslim middle east nation .
    Strategically, Muslims have a RIGHT to defend themselves if they FEEL threatened.

    Works both ways.
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    (Original post by UGeNe)
    Strategically, Muslims have a RIGHT to defend themselves if they FEEL threatened.

    Works both ways.
    They feel threatened from their own citizens? :confused: Which explains how arabic pagan followers have declined in number and christianity a so called religion of the book has decreased from 20%to 2%. Millions of people have not received fair trials for various reasons. Thousands of people have disappeared.

    The west grants basic human rights which in this day and age should be expected from everyone.
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    They feel threatened from their own citizens? :confused: Which explains how arabic pagan followers have declined in number and christianity a so called religion of the book has decreased from 20%to 2%. Millions of people have not received fair trials for various reasons. Thousands of people have disappeared.

    The west grants basic human rights which in this day and age should be expected from everyone.
    Says who?
 
 
 
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