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Thinking the unthinkable; Reassessing the BNP! watch

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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The conservative party must be hiding those politicians in their party who care about the immigration levels because I haven't seen any. The only reason anyone has been voting for the BNP is because the main political parties have been forced to leave immigration off the policy list since the rivers of blood speech, which strangely enough became true. I am happy to be multi-cultural with countries who are multi-cultural with us; europe, america, canada, australia etc. but when it's a one way street and the immigrants get to keep their culture whilst systematically destroying ours, that's when I get annoyed.
    agreed!:yes: why should we have to change things to make the immigrants happy?
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    (Original post by cashdogg666)
    agreed! why should we have to change things to make the immigrants happy?
    Watch out, these forums are monitored by Oswy and his thought police :plz2:.
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    (Original post by Paul_r)
    Could I stand accused of "double standards"?
    There are a few ways to defend a consistent position on multiculturalism.

    The first one is to accept that we should not preserve the culture of tribes, and to argue that the preservation of their basic, uninformed culture is a selfish desire of the Western world to be able to think and see those peoples in that way, rather than an acceptance that many people in the primitive cultures would actually prefer the input of Western culture.

    The second defence, one that doesn't require you to change your position on either culture, involves arguing that pluralism is an important part of our modern culture, and therefore to defend multiculturalism is to defend an important part of our culture - it is a defence of the values of tolerance and pluralism. Other cultures do not have the same notions of pluralism and therefore to expose their culture to pluralism is to break with their traditions, while allowing pluralism in Britain is to reinforce values that many Brits consider important.

    A third defence involves recognizing that the different cultures are in different positions with respect to their development. Cultures that are mostly closed have people with different needs and wants compared to cultures that have free-flowing information and ideas. Closed cultures can be protected by preventing massive influxes of people or ideas, but it is politically and socially untenable to think that we can prevent ideas from flowing into an open Britain - you may be able to prevent people flowing into Britain, but you can't stop one of their citizens adopting a different culture and choosing an identity for themselves. People in closed cultures homogeneously retain that culture because they know no different; if Brits know differently then to force them to conform to a culture, or to ask them to subsidise a culture they disagree with, is socially dubious. If you accept that ideas can flow freely - and that multiculturalism from that source cannot be stopped - then it is easy to come to the conclusion that people who hold different ideas should flow freely into the country as well.

    Take your pick.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    In the end I think what we should prioritise is some degree of freedom in all this - freedom to self-consciously maintain cultural practices and, equally, freedom to abandon them, transform them or mix and match them. The comparsion between small-scale societies and large urban societies like ours isn't such a good one either; once a society becomes relatively large and urban it generates variations in cultural practices and tastes anyway - Britain has been 'multicultural' for a long time if we can recognise that this means the presence of a multiplicity of cultural forms, whether centred on class, gender, region, age, religion, sexual orientation, or whatever.
    Actually I think this reconciles my contradiction quite nicely.
    I agree with what you say.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The conservative party must be hiding those politicians in their party who care about the immigration levels because I haven't seen any. The only reason anyone has been voting for the BNP is because the main political parties have been forced to leave immigration off the policy list since the rivers of blood speech, which strangely enough became true. I am happy to be multi-cultural with countries who are multi-cultural with us; europe, america, canada, australia etc. but when it's a one way street and the immigrants get to keep their culture whilst systematically destroying ours, that's when I get annoyed.
    this, pretty much.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    The conservative party must be hiding those politicians in their party who care about the immigration levels because I haven't seen any. The only reason anyone has been voting for the BNP is because the main political parties have been forced to leave immigration off the policy list since the rivers of blood speech, which strangely enough became true. I am happy to be multi-cultural with countries who are multi-cultural with us; europe, america, canada, australia etc. but when it's a one way street and the immigrants get to keep their culture whilst systematically destroying ours, that's when I get annoyed.

    True for me too. As well as integration. Take schools for example, in my old school out of I think 15 Asian people in my year, I think I only ever spoke to 2 of them, because they don't integrate into the society.
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    Such ridiculous plans; political reality eludes you, I fear.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    I've never studied politics or economics in school, no. Am self teaching myself economics A2 at the moment though. :yep:

    And yeah, I'm a libertarian - so I actually really strongly oppose the BNP, but I want to debate with them and actually explain why I think my ideas would work better, I don't want to cheat and just tell people not to support them, but not explain why. That kind of attitude is only making them a stronger force in politics.

    Who do you support incidently?
    The Conservative Party as the least of three evils. I've never studied politics whatsoever but read a lot about it in my free time.
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    (Original post by King Pieb)
    True for me too. As well as integration. Take schools for example, in my old school out of I think 15 Asian people in my year, I think I only ever spoke to 2 of them, because they don't integrate into the society.
    Yeah, this happened at my college as we were close to Luton. Only a couple of Asians were involved in the a-level program, the rest followed each other into business and IT so they could dominate it by making up over 50% of the class.
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    What's up with the "preserving [certain] cultures"?? There is zero point in preserving any culture, as long as people decide they've gone past them and don't apply to their lifestyles. It's somewhat similar to teaching Latin in schools (don't get me wrong, I love Latin) despite the fact that it has no relevance to society.

    What's so wrong with adopting foreign food recipes? They taste better, they might be healthier - if all this is true, then clinging on to tradition seems a forced love. If a community feels strongly about a certain cultural aspect (e.g. language, events, food, lifestyle), that mere fact means they are going to preserve it - if they feel vulnerable in front of foreigners and their cultures that means they somewhat believe they are better and everyone is going to love them. It's very similar to the "If everyone is gay, the world will end" argument! If you personally are confident about your heterosexuality (in this case, culture), then there is no need to fear it will disappear.

    Why this morbid, blind patriotism? In the past, it made sense to defend your land and work with your neighbours, but nowadays this is not the case. People travel a lot and can get work anywhere. It's no longer a case of working your own land or die of hunger.

    This said, I believe the BNP are not being realistic in their policies and aim to cause more harm than good for the world at large and for the UK people.
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    (Original post by Joseph90)
    The Conservative Party as the least of three evils. I've never studied politics whatsoever but read a lot about it in my free time.
    But if you were to support who you actually wanted to support rather than having a lesser of the evils attitude, would it be leaning more towards UKIP or towards LPUK?
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    But if you were to support who you actually wanted to support rather than having a lesser of the evils attitude, would it be leaning more towards UKIP or towards LPUK?
    Probably UKIP. I like the look of both parties from their websites but seeing them running the power would be a dream to me. I'm a Conservative voter. Though as I'm young, my views are changing fast so I am considering becoming a member of either UKIP or LPUK.
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    (Original post by Flying Cookie)
    What's up with the "preserving [certain] cultures"?? There is zero point in preserving any culture, as long as people decide they've gone past them and don't apply to their lifestyles. It's somewhat similar to teaching Latin in schools (don't get me wrong, I love Latin) despite the fact that it has no relevance to society.

    What's so wrong with adopting foreign food recipes? They taste better, they might be healthier - if all this is true, then clinging on to tradition seems a forced love. If a community feels strongly about a certain cultural aspect (e.g. language, events, food, lifestyle), that mere fact means they are going to preserve it - if they feel vulnerable in front of foreigners and their cultures that means they somewhat believe they are better and everyone is going to love them. It's very similar to the "If everyone is gay, the world will end" argument! If you personally are confident about your heterosexuality (in this case, culture), then there is no need to fear it will disappear.

    Why this morbid, blind patriotism? In the past, it made sense to defend your land and work with your neighbours, but nowadays this is not the case. People travel a lot and can get work anywhere. It's no longer a case of working your own land or die of hunger.

    This said, I believe the BNP are not being realistic in their policies and aim to cause more harm than good for the world at large and for the UK people.
    Interesting. Part of it's irrational, a certain sentimentality towards what has transcened the centuries, providing continuity with the past. I think thats valid, actually.

    But, on a more rational basis, I do worry about the homogenisation of culture, I like the fact that France is different to Samoa, I like the quaint cultural quirks, I like the opposing views/religions/philosophies, I think vibrancy in humanity is a great thing.

    I also worry that the homogenisation of culture, will be led from America, and yes I accept that some will embrace this but regret that others will be powerless to prevent it. Afterall what can an Amazonian tribe do against the rampant force of industary and capitalism...
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    (Original post by Paul_r)
    ...

    But, on a more rational basis, I do worry about the homogenisation of culture, I like the fact that France is different to Samoa, I like the quaint cultural quirks, I like the opposing views/religions/philosophies, I think vibrancy in humanity is a great thing.

    I also worry that the homogenisation of culture, will be led from America, and yes I accept that some will embrace this but regret that others will be powerless to prevent it. Afterall what can an Amazonian tribe do against the rampant force of industary and capitalism...
    If anything globalisation has generated an explosion of cultural variety, only what is also happening is that this variety is less and less bound by national borders. There's never been more sub-cultures in teenage life, to take one example, than there is right now in Britain, but these sub-cultures often have a trans-national character. Small-scale societies aren't, culturally speaking, going to maintain their ancestors practices - sometimes that's a matter of lament on their part but often they embrace new opportunities and experiences, they're human beings after all, not museum pieces. In the end all culture changes, all traditions come and go, we might get a little nostalgic for the past and that's ok, but we shouldn't be looking to politics to force continuity upon ourselves; as I've said, most change happens because people want it, want new experiences and get bored with the old ways.
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    (Original post by Joseph90)
    Probably UKIP. I like the look of both parties from their websites but seeing them running the power would be a dream to me. I'm a Conservative voter. Though as I'm young, my views are changing fast so I am considering becoming a member of either UKIP or LPUK.
    How socially liberal are you? Do you oppose war, want gay rights, want to legalise drugs and prostitution?
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    (Original post by Paul_r)
    Consider the Massai tribe, consider the rich cultural past, the centuries of continuity based upon shared ancestry, the traditions the customs the unique way of live.

    Now imagine Gerry from Newcastle turning up, and Pete from NYC exporting his Coca-cola and free market capitalism, imagine Richard Dawkins ridiculing there stuperstitions and Antonio from Italy showing them that spagetti bolognase is tastier and more nutritious than root vegetable. All of a sudden the culture wanes... and my much eulogised multi-culturalism has a lot to answer for...

    Could I stand accused of "double standards"?
    I think this is the difference between 'multiculturalism' and freedom of culture. Multiculturalism seems to favour coercion to maintain a sort of a 'museum of culture', either overtly by banning people from other cultures showing up to "pollute" them (McDonalds in Africa, or whatever else), or by using tax money to influence peoples' behaviour, eg. the mandatory teaching of Welsh in Wales, or the state funding of religious schools. To an extent, I think the BNP are right that multiculturalism is really just an anti-British culture project (at least, taht seems to be the only way to rationalise the conflicting views a lot of its proponents hold), but that doesn't make the BNP necessarily correct about the response, either. Freedom would allow people to choose to live the way they like. That ultimately is what culture is. State-cultivated faux culture, like they have in France, is often superficially appealing but actually stagnant and stifling.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    How socially liberal are you? Do you oppose war, want gay rights, want to legalise drugs and prostitution?
    I oppose war unless it is fighting a direct threat to our country. For example, I oppose Afghanistan and Iraq presence. I believe in gay rights. Though I don't think drugs and prostitution should be legalised.
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    (Original post by Joseph90)
    I oppose war unless it is fighting a direct threat to our country. For example, I oppose Afghanistan and Iraq presence. I believe in gay rights. Though I don't think drugs and prostitution should be legalised.
    You're a tricky one then, because it was going so well for LPUK until the last sentence. Unless you were open to persuasion on the latter two that is. :devil:
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    The greatest countries in the world were built on immigration. What else needs discussing? Anyone who denies the success of immigration clearly forgets how essential it is to growth.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    You're a tricky one then, because it was going so well for LPUK until the last sentence. Unless you were open to persuasion on the latter two that is. :devil:
    Have you read High Society by Ben Elton?

    I like the theory of legalising drugs and prostitution so the government can regulate it, but wouldn't that make the ideas totally non-Libertarian? Also they would be difficult to regulate due to the amount of forms you'd need to sign to fund your habit rather than just arranging a meeting with your dealer.
 
 
 
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