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Thinking the unthinkable; Reassessing the BNP! watch

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    (Original post by Oswy)
    The two things don't stand a reasonable comparison however. Amazonian Indians are having the lands they live in physically destroyed, they aren't really being given choices. We in modern Britain, however, are not in any sense being 'forced' to abandon, say, morris-dancing (never that popular anyway) or fish and chips, or whatever you think is suffering demise in 'our own culture', we're opting for new and diverse culture, and mixing it up, because, whether you like it or not, we're choosing to.
    No, the supporters of the failed multicultural experiment chose for us. All multiculturalism has done is divide the country and cause resentment among certain sections of society while giving us no tangible benefits what-so-ever.
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    (Original post by Renner)
    No, the supporters of the failed multicultural experiment chose for us. All multiculturalism has done is divide the country and cause resentment among certain sections of society while giving us no tangible benefits what-so-ever.
    Have you ever thought that the supporters of the failed multicultural experiment might have been anyone who bought foreign food, listened to foreign music, went on foreign holidays etc etc?

    I mean, you make it sound like there was some conspiracy involving men in dark rooms plotting to destroy the country. Most people are perfectly happy to accept the benefits of multiculturalism and increased diversity.
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    (Original post by Renner)
    No, the supporters of the failed multicultural experiment chose for us. All multiculturalism has done is divide the country and cause resentment among certain sections of society while giving us no tangible benefits what-so-ever.
    The widening of cultural life in Britain is hardly a failure and you haven't actually been prevented from forming a morris-dancing team, have you? The only people who resent are those who can't simply get on with their own cultural lives or maybe just don't have one. As for benefits? I think I have benefited plenty. But there again what tangible benefits do you bring me? Your reference to 'us' here suggests that 'we' have the same interests, but we don't.
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    (Original post by Renner)
    I've always said this about the left, they shout from the roof tops about multi-culturalism but will fight for the right of some Amazonian tribe to keep there identity and independence. Hypocrisy at its highest
    That's because they are patriaphobic.
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    learning about new cultures can be an enriching experiance, but having an alien culture forced on to you is not always positive.

    You only need to remember one example. The native americans. Would anyone really argue that they benefitted from the 'multiculture' of european immigration? they got new ideas, foods, technology but were also almost wiped out and probably have lost their land for ever.

    Oswy, you don't seem to be able to recognise 'to much of a good thing'. Sure, having a chinese family on your street providing chinese food can be a good thing in our lives, but what if 90% of your street, over the years becomes chinese? The english festivals stop happening, english stops being spoken in the street, signs become mandarin only as there are few if any english people about. All of a sudden you are a foreigner in your own land. THAT is what is happening to part of the UK and could happen to all of it eventually.

    I would not blame the immigrant group per se, but the foresight of the leaders of this country. Its not the principle we are arguing about its the practicality of it. Immigration at large scale transforms countries rapidly. Just like in the case of the native americans, first it was a few pioneers on the shores of chesapeake bay - 300 years later they were outnumbered 100 to one, persecuted and had lost a continent.

    If you don't care about becoming a minority in your own land (you probably don't), consider this, maybe the incoming group does not share your 'enlightened' views. In a 100 years time they get tired of those pesky english minorites and repress or even kill them. You've just become a victim of your own 'tolerance'.

    Unrestricted mass immgiration is pottentialy very dangerous for british people, the only reason you don't recognise it as such if that you are an idealist and believe in a raceless, classless utopia. Fine if your an optimist but you should at least be honest and admit there is huge pottential danger.
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    (Original post by Arminius)
    ...

    Oswy, you don't seem to be able to recognise 'to much of a good thing'. Sure, having a chinese family on your street providing chinese food can be a good thing in our lives, but what if 90% of your street, over the years becomes chinese? The english festivals stop happening, english stops being spoken in the street, signs become mandarin only as there are few if any english people about. ...
    But so what if over the years 90% of my street became Chinese? All the 'Chinese' people I've met who live in Britain speak English, I'm sure some of the older (first generation) immigrants possibly don't, but their kids and grand-kids born here invariably do - indeed I happen to know one 'Chinese' girl who only speaks English - that is probably a more realistic example of what happens over time. If there is a demographic shift with regard to ethnicity, sure, there will probably be some shift in relation to cultural life, but again, I say so what? If some festivals fade and others emerge then so be it - this phenomenon is nothing new, with or without immigration. As I've said before, I care about my neighbours being neighbourly, not about whether they share my ethnicity, for me ethnicity is a fact, not some kind of quasi-mystical imperative.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    As I've said before, I care about my neighbours being neighbourly, not about whether they share my ethnicity, for me ethnicity is a fact, not some kind of quasi-mystical imperative.
    Ah, but as much as I hate to admit it, you are an intellectual. For you, it matters not whether they share the same festival celebrations as yourself and family traditions. Instead, what matters is whether they are good hearted. But, alas, I fear that the majority of people do not follow this trend of thought.

    Our difference of opinion simply boils down to our views of the stability of a multi cultural, multi racial society. You are optimistic about it. Fair enough. But, we are pessimistic. Our apprehensive outlook (yet nonetheless realistic in our opinion) is simply down to the following point, which you seemed to have ignored:

    (Original post by Arminius)
    If you don't care about becoming a minority in your own land (you probably don't), consider this, maybe the incoming group does not share your 'enlightened' views. In a 100 years time they get tired of those pesky english minorites and repress or even kill them. You've just become a victim of your own 'tolerance'.

    Unrestricted mass immgiration is pottentialy very dangerous for british people, the only reason you don't recognise it as such if that you are an idealist and believe in a raceless, classless utopia. Fine if your an optimist but you should at least be honest and admit there is huge pottential danger.
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    (Original post by Arminius)
    If you don't care about becoming a minority in your own land (you probably don't), consider this, maybe the incoming group does not share your 'enlightened' views. In a 100 years time they get tired of those pesky english minorites and repress or even kill them. You've just become a victim of your own 'tolerance'.

    Unrestricted mass immgiration is pottentialy very dangerous for british people, the only reason you don't recognise it as such if that you are an idealist and believe in a raceless, classless utopia. Fine if your an optimist but you should at least be honest and admit there is huge pottential danger.
    Well said, Arminius. I'm hoping Cameron's UAF pretensions are exactly that - nothing more than PR posturing. Unless the Conservatives do something about immigration after they get in, and it continues to rise at the massive rate it is now, I can see the BNP vote rising massively. People will get angry about becoming a stigmatised minority in their own country.

    Let us not forget that in multicultural Luton this year, the council BANNED a St George's Day parade but had no problem with sanctioning massive 'diversity' (i.e. African/Asian) celebrations. The trends are being set NOW.
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    (Original post by john1987)
    Well said, Arminius. I'm hoping Cameron's UAF pretensions are exactly that - nothing more than PR posturing. Unless the Conservatives do something about immigration after they get in, and it continues to rise at the massive rate it is now, I can see the BNP vote rising massively. People will get angry about becoming a stigmatised minority in their own country.

    Let us not forget that in multicultural Luton this year, the council BANNED a St George's Day parade but had no problem with sanctioning massive 'diversity' (i.e. African/Asian) celebrations. The trends are being set NOW.
    Immigration would fall 17% under the conservatives, and that is their own generous statistic.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    ...

    Our difference of opinion simply boils down to our views of the stability of a multi cultural, multi racial society. You are optimistic about it. Fair enough. But, we are pessimistic...
    This isn't the whole picture though. Your decision to run with the BNP supporters here isn't just running with people who worry about a lack of cultural integration, these people are white/ethno-nationalists, worried about the future of their 'race'; the last thing they actually want is non-white people integrating, they want as few non-whites in their society as possible, period, and talking about integration is a red-herring.

    As for muticultural society? Again, I've said this many times, all large-scale societies are multicultural in that they have a multiplicity of culture, with or without ethnic difference, whether that relates to religion, class, gender, differences between town and country life, sexual life, sporting interests or hobbies, political opinions, food cultures or regional and local variations of culture (and the list could go on). Why on earth do you regard yourself as a libertarian if you want to see government intervention in people's cultural lives for the sake of 'stability'? Isn't cultural freedom your priority? I think you're in the wrong party.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Again, I've said this many times, all large-scale societies are multicultural in that they have a multiplicity of culture, with or without ethnic difference, whether that relates to religion, class, gender, differences between town and country life, sexual life, sporting interests or hobbies, political opinions, food cultures or regional and local variations of culture (and the list could go on).
    Yes, and indeed, some of the factors you listed can contribute to hostility within society. Yet, some of them are superficial and not visibly divisive, such as sport interests or food interests. What the BNP question is whether it’s a good idea to import more contentious divisions (such as religion and political opinions) against what we already have.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    Why on earth do you regard yourself as a libertarian if you want to see government intervention in people's cultural lives for the sake of 'stability'? Isn't cultural freedom your priority? I think you're in the wrong party.
    But I don’t want to see government intervention in culture. This is why I don’t support the BNP. Unfortunately, the current government is already intervening in culture by enforcing anti White British racial and cultural policies. The BNP want the opposite. I don’t want the state dictating either of the two, and so therefore my view is nicely consistent with Libertarian thesis.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    Yes, and indeed, some of the factors you listed can contribute to hostility within society. Yet, some of them are superficial and not visibly divisive, such as sport interests or food interests. What the BNP question is whether it’s a good idea to import more contentious divisions (such as religion and political opinions) against what we already have.

    But I don’t want to see government intervention in culture. This is why I don’t support the BNP. Unfortunately, the current government is already intervening in culture by enforcing anti White British racial and cultural policies. The BNP want the opposite. I don’t want the state dictating either of the two, and so therefore my view is nicely consistent with Libertarian thesis.
    But you're just ignoring me now. The BNP are white/ethno-nationalist, they don't want immigration because they don't want different skin-colours here. They talk up the issue of integration dishonestly (and, yes, time and again I've demonstrated how rich don't integrate with poor - so that's another false argument). This is notwithstanding the fact that most immigrants do integrate very quickly anyway - depending on your standard of integration. Indeed, do I integrate sufficiently for your tastes? I'm not a Christian, nor a Monarchist, indeed I'm a Marxist! Do you want rid of me too?

    Anyway, you really should check out the policies of the libertarian party you're promoting - their long term aim is the totally free movement of people across the globe, do you buy into that given what you've said about 'divisions'? lol And remember, as a libertarian you're not supposed to believe in 'society' anyway.
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    (Original post by King Pieb)
    True for me too. As well as integration. Take schools for example, in my old school out of I think 15 Asian people in my year, I think I only ever spoke to 2 of them, because they don't integrate into the society.
    Have you ever thought that maybe this was as much your fault as theirs?
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    (Original post by john1987)
    ...I'm hoping Cameron's UAF pretensions are exactly that - nothing more than PR posturing...
    The Tory leader said many people would be angry at the main two parties over the MP expenses furore and would want to punish politicians by voting for the BNP or UKIP.

    He was talking with the farming community at the Bath and West Show in Shepton Mallet, Somerset.

    “If you vote for the BNP you are voting for a bunch of fascists who want to divide this country over the issues of race and the colour of skin,” he said.

    He became angry when a member of the audience said the BNP “have a point when it comes to immigration”.

    Mr Cameron told him: “Do not be naive about what these people stand for.

    “They dress up in a suit and knock on your door in a nice way but they are still Nazi thugs. There is a proper national debate that we should have about immigration.

    “I want us to limit the number of people coming to Britain, but do not believe that the way to beat the BNP is to half agree with them.

    “These people are not pleasant people.”

    TELEGRAPH: LINK
    Wow, I agree with David Cameron [state of shock].
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Have you ever thought that maybe this was as much your fault as theirs?

    Nope, anyone who knows me, will tell you I will speak to anyone and I mean anyone.
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    (Original post by King Pieb)
    Nope, anyone who knows me, will tell you I will speak to anyone and I mean anyone.

    Then why didn't you speak to the other 13 asians?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Then why didn't you speak to the other 13 asians?

    Well I can't say I didnt try, but its quite clear when someone doesn't want to speak to you.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    But you're just ignoring me now. The BNP are white/ethno-nationalist, they don't want immigration because they don't want different skin-colours here.
    The BNP believe in the superiority of the white race. They believe that black people are more predisposed to violence and have a much lower IQ. They also believe that Islam a threat to non-Muslim British people. So that is why they don’t want black people or Muslims in this country. However, I don’t believe in this conclusive view of black people and Muslims, hence I don’t support the BNP.

    This thread is about re-assessing some of their views. All I’m saying is that I agree that a heavily multi-racial and multi-cultural society is a risky social experiment. I’m not suggesting that it means we should vote for the BNP.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    Anyway, you really should check out the policies of the libertarian party you're promoting - their long term aim is the totally free movement of people across the globe, do you buy into that given what you've said about 'divisions'? lol And remember, as a libertarian you're not supposed to believe in 'society' anyway.
    That totally depends on what you mean by the phrase ‘believe in society’. I am fully aware that the Libertarian Party UK (LPUK) advocates the free movement of people as a long-term goal. However, simultaneously, they are realistic about the practicality of this prospect:

    (Original post by Libertarian Party UK)
    As a party we are committed to establishing the free movement of goods, capital and people. However, the free movement of people into the UK is not yet practical while we have both a large welfare state and most other countries are themselves not broadly Libertarian in nature.
    The difference is that LPUK doesn’t believe that the state should force people to respect anyone’s culture. Divisions wouldn’t exist, as those with no intention to integrate wouldn’t be able to survive in a Libertarian country.
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    You don't need to be a genius to realise the fundemental hypocrisy and self contradiction of multiculturalism in theory and practice.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    The BNP believe in the superiority of the white race. They believe that black people are more predisposed to violence and have a much lower IQ. They also believe that Islam a threat to non-Muslim British people. So that is why they don’t want black people or Muslims in this country. However, I don’t believe in this conclusive view of black people and Muslims, hence I don’t support the BNP.
    And what do you base those statements on?
 
 
 
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