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Thinking the unthinkable; Reassessing the BNP! Watch

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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    ...

    The difference is that LPUK doesn’t believe that the state should force people to respect anyone’s culture. Divisions wouldn’t exist, as those with no intention to integrate wouldn’t be able to survive in a Libertarian country.
    This, especially, just doesn't make sense. If no one has to respect anyone's culture then how would that produce the 'integration' you're so fond of? If anything a state's commitment to staying out of cultural conflicts would simply allow them to fester, surely? When you say 'wouldn't be able to survive' what do you mean by this, specifically? Are you suggesting that blacks and asians would simply be strung up or hounded out of their homes and the government would let it all happen?

    Tbh, I think I now understand what you're about, you have some race-based issues connected to beliefs about black people being violent and unintelligent and about Islam as a dangerous religion, and this makes you torn between libertarianism and any political position which wants blacks and asians out. I'd hate to be in your shoes!
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    You don't need to be a genius to realise the fundemental hypocrisy and self contradiction of multiculturalism in theory and practice.
    Unfortunately for you you're not a genuis.

    Multiculturalism is simply the presence of, and acceptance of, a multiplicity of cultural life, something that exists in any large-scale society. The opposite if this is cultural fascism - the desire to limit what kind of culture people can adopt or participate in.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Unfortunately for you you're not a genuis.

    Multiculturalism is simply the presence of, and acceptance of, a multiplicity of cultural life, something that exists in any large-scale society. The opposite if this is cultural fascism - the desire to limit what kind of culture people can adopt or participate in.
    Oh so you're talking to me now? You passive aggressive smarmy old man. Do you never get tired of being smarmy on a website to people half your age?

    Multiculturalism is no such thing, not in real life, not in theory and not by definition.
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    The BNP believe in the superiority of the white race. They believe that black people are more predisposed to violence and have a much lower IQ

    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    And what do you base those statements on?
    I base this statement on official BNP articles and on the views of people that claim to represent the BNP whom assert that black people commit more crime because they are more inclined towards delinquency and hence why so many countries with a predominantly black population are constantly suffering from instability.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    If no one has to respect anyone's culture then how would that produce the 'integration' you're so fond of? If anything a state's commitment to staying out of cultural conflicts would simply allow them to fester, surely?
    Forced respect is not genuine respect. I believe that the Government is causing the problem of hostility between different groups of society. That is why I believe they should not intervene in culture.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    When you say 'wouldn't be able to survive' what do you mean by this, specifically? Are you suggesting that blacks and asians would simply be strung up or hounded out of their homes and the government would let it all happen?
    If blacks and Asians were physically assaulted, a Libertarian government would not let that happen by virtue of the fact that it would be a criminal offence.

    What I meant by ‘wouldn’t be able to survive’ was that immigrants with no intention to integrate in society would find it extremely difficult to get a job or run a successful business in a Libertarian country. Therefore, there would be no need to ban immigrants from entering the country.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    Tbh, I think I now understand what you're about, you have some race-based issues connected to beliefs about black people being violent and unintelligent and about Islam as a dangerous religion, and this makes you torn between libertarianism and any political position which wants blacks and asians out. I'd hate to be in your shoes!
    I don’t want blacks and Asians out of the UK. I am half Asian myself, so this would be self-defeatist. I simply don’t want the government enforcing multiculturalism. This means that I don’t want the fascist nanny state dictating whom I can or cannot employ.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Oh so you're talking to me now? You passive aggressive smarmy old man. Do you never get tired of being smarmy on a website to people half your age?

    Multiculturalism is no such thing, not in real life, not in theory and not by definition.
    If you knew the definition of 'smarmy' you wouldn't really have made such an accusation in that instance, genius. Are you half my age? I am a student and this is a student forum I don't see how my age should be a subject of criticism - unless you're struggling with the actual debate?

    Anyway, yes, in real life 'multiculturalism' is a term which recognises the presence of a multiplicity of culture in societies such as ours - the clue is in the word.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)

    Multiculturalism is no such thing, not in real life, not in theory and not by definition.

    Okay then.. What is the definition/theory of multiculturalism?
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    ...

    What I meant by ‘wouldn’t be able to survive’ was that immigrants with no intention to integrate in society would find it extremely difficult to get a job or run a successful business in a Libertarian country. Therefore, there would be no need to ban immigrants from entering the country.

    ...
    Ah, I see, but plenty of black and asian people have survived decades of hostility in this country; during periods when governments were little interested in tackling racism and where racist attacks, assaults, slurs and jokes were widespread in our culture (I was around in the 70s so I know this first-hand). And, if you really are committed to the libertarian party's long-term goal of complete freedom of movement of people I don't think people will be stopped from coming to Britian if they know the law will protect them from physical harm - some of the people who come subject themselves to huge risks, they're not going to be put off because a bunch of neo-Nazis in their neighbourhood refuse to buy stuff from their corner shop, or whatever.

    Can I ask where you stand on the issue of neo-Nazis making Nazi salutes and Nazi chanting outside of, say, synagogues? Does your commitment to freedom of expression, and to the lack of interference with people's rights to express their hostility to others, find that kind of thing acceptable?
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    If you knew the definition of 'smarmy' you wouldn't really have made such an accusation in that instance, genius. Are you half my age? I am a student and this is a student forum I don't see how my age should be a subject of criticism - unless you're struggling with the actual debate?

    Anyway, yes, in real life 'multiculturalism' is a term which recognises the presence of a multiplicity of culture in societies such as ours - the clue is in the word.
    You're the very definition of smarmy.

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Okay then.. What is the definition/theory of multiculturalism?
    Why would you want me to tell you? I'm no authority. Go look in a political science book. I come here to debate politics, not to bore myself dealing with peoples sef serving and erronous definitions.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)

    Why would you want me to tell you? I'm no authority. Go look in a political science book. I come here to debate politics, not to bore myself dealing with peoples sef serving and erronous definitions.


    Lol, so clearly you have no idea what the true definition of multiculturalism is, which in turn makes your arguments null and void.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    I base this statement on official BNP articles and on the views of people that claim to represent the BNP whom assert that black people commit more crime because they are more inclined towards delinquency and hence why so many countries with a predominantly black population are constantly suffering from instability.
    Well that is the view of 'some people' who 'claim to represent the BNP', not the organisation.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Lol, so clearly you have no idea what the true definition of multiculturalism is, which in turn makes your arguments null and void.
    Debating definitions is boring, I've done it before, it's boring. All it boils down to is deal with peoples obfuscation when using language and terminology, i.e boring **** with people who aren't interested in debate at all. Tell me why I should have to deal constructively with bs?
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Debating definitions is boring, I've done it before, it's boring. All it boils down to is deal with peoples obfuscation when using language and terminology, i.e boring **** with people who aren't interested in debate at all. Tell me why I should have to deal constructively with bs?

    Because you originally were the one who opened debate on Oswy's definition of multiculturalism.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Oh so you're talking to me now? You passive aggressive smarmy old man. Do you never get tired of being smarmy on a website to people half your age?

    Multiculturalism is no such thing, not in real life, not in theory and not by definition.
    Well said, mate!
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Because you originally were the one who opened debate on Oswy's definition of multiculturalism.
    Well I was giving a reply to him, not trying to open debate, I would have been more thorough if I was. I know how this game goes and I know how people like Oswy try to play it, it isn't very interesting or enlightening (much like the people who play it that way). It is more of a manipulative game with them, notice how he talks about neo-nazis outside a synagoge when discussing freedom of expression. Ask yourself, is this supposed to be condusive to serious rational and academic debate, or to push people to a conclusion through emotive imagry? It is not, it is more emotive rubbish to 'win' people over, this is the reason he is so smarmy and ingratiating. This game people like Oswy play is about controlling peoples imagaination, not rationally making a case for or against. You think I am wrong here?
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Ah, I see, but plenty of black and asian people have survived decades of hostility in this country; during periods when governments were little interested in tackling racism and where racist attacks, assaults, slurs and jokes were widespread in our culture (I was around in the 70s so I know this first-hand).
    That’s because not all of us blacks or Asians want to overthrow British sovereignty and install our own ancestral values and traditions. People have come to realise that some of us immigrants do want to integrate and adapt and so therefore we have been able to live and study and work here successfully. Thus, we have managed to gain some modicum of respect from the vast majority of British people.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    And, if you really are committed to the libertarian party's long-term goal of complete freedom of movement of people I don't think people will be stopped from coming to Britian if they know the law will protect them from physical harm - some of the people who come subject themselves to huge risks, they're not going to be put off because a bunch of neo-Nazis in their neighbourhood refuse to buy stuff from their corner shop, or whatever.
    No, it’s not that immigrants will be put off from irrational extremists or aggressive thugs already residing in a Libertarian Britain. The point is that irrational extremists will be put off from coming here because in a Libertarian society, people would be free to ostracise such undesirables.

    (Original post by Oswy)
    Can I ask where you stand on the issue of neo-Nazis making Nazi salutes and Nazi chanting outside of, say, synagogues? Does your commitment to freedom of expression, and to the lack of interference with people's rights to express their hostility to others, find that kind of thing acceptable?
    Certainly. Nazi salutes are simple a hand gesture, no matter whatever the connotations. As an ardent defender of Freedom of Expression I believe gestures (no matter to what degree we find abhorrent) should never be banned.

    In reference to ‘Nazi-chanting’, this depends on largely what is being said. Again, I also fervently believe in Freedom of Speech, which means that I believe people should be free to voice whatever opinions they hold. This doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for people to make threats against persons or their property.

    Finally, private property rights would be enforced. This means that people are entitled to quiet enjoyment of their property. In applying property rights principle to your hypothetical scenarios of a Synagogue surrounded by Nazi-chanting, civil proceedings could be initiated to prevent that from happening. Of course, this is an issue that would accordingly be decided by the judiciary depending on the facts of the case such as that described by the English law of Tort.

    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Well that is the view of 'some people' who 'claim to represent the BNP', not the organisation.
    Right, and what makes the BNP the organisation that it is?

    You’ve really picked up on a silly objection here. Official BNP activists have created much material negatively analysing the 'threat of Islam' and the 'black culture'. It’s not very contentious issue for me to suggest that the BNP believe in the superiority of the white race. What is debatable, however, is the speculative suggestion that the BNP would forcibly remove non-whites or would set up murderous concentration camps reminiscent of the Nazis if the BNP were to ever form Government.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    Well I was giving a reply to him, not trying to open debate, I would have been more thorough if I was. I know how this game goes and I know how people like Oswy try to play it, it isn't very interesting or enlightening (much like the people who play it that way). It is more of a manipulative game with them, notice how he talks about neo-nazis outside a synagoge when discussing freedom of expression. Ask yourself, is this supposed to be condusive to serious rational and academic debate, or to push people to a conclusion through emotive imagry? It is not, it is more emotive rubbish to 'win' people over, this is the reason he is so smarmy and ingratiating. This game people like Oswy play is about controlling peoples imagaination, not rationally making a case for or against. You think I am wrong here?

    Yes i do.

    There are many different ways to debate effectively. How about you try to counter what Oswy is arguing rather than how he is arguing.

    Or maybe you can't.
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    (Original post by Anony mouse)
    Right, and what makes the BNP the organisation that it is?
    The leadership, councilors, its members. Not, 'some people who claim to represent'.

    You’ve really picked up on a silly objection here. Official BNP activists have created much material negatively analysing the 'threat of Islam' and the 'black culture'. It’s not very contentious issue for me to suggest that the BNP believe in the superiority of the white race. What is debatable, however, is the speculative suggestion that the BNP would forcibly remove non-whites or would set up murderous concentration camps reminiscent of the Nazis if the BNP were to ever form Government.
    Lol you are mental. Is it debatable that you are overreacting? Just maybe it is.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Yes i do.

    There are many different ways to debate effectively. How about you try to counter what Oswy is arguing rather than how he is arguing.

    Or maybe you can't.
    I've done it before, it leads no where. It is a hopeless way to have a debate, and I can't be arsed with that. It isn't effective, it is only effective in confusing people who don't know what they are doing and boring people who do.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    I've done it before, it leads no where. It is a hopeless way to have a debate, and I can't be arsed with that. It isn't effective, it is only effective in confusing people who don't know what they are doing and boring people who do.

    Ah, this explains why you are upset.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Ah, this explains why you are upset.
    Eh?
 
 
 
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