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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    Err. Yes, I do know that if I insult someone's religious belief, they will be offended. But that does not mean that it's my fault, and that I should do something about it.

    I could decide right now that, from now on, I'm going to be offended by anyone wearing high-heel shoes. Should they stop wearing them to stop me from being offended? No. It's my fault I'm offended, it's my problem, so I should deal with it.

    And I really hope that my words DO effect others. If I can get just one person to open up their mind and THINK about their beliefs because I have challenged them, then I would be absolutely estatic with myself, having provided such a great service.

    At my primary school, I learned how to be a critical independent thinker. I didn't learn how to kiss ass and please everybody else by complying with their belief systems, regardless of how ridiculous they are, and I'm not about to start now.
    i do not think that you can compare insulting someones religion with being offended by someone wearing high heels. what would you say to someone who is offended by someone using racist language, hmm should they just get on with it. it is clear that you are not mature enough to understand what being rude and having a rational conversation is. i have had many RATIONAL conversations with atheists and we were mature not insult one another, as that is just tacky. as a christian i try to open peoples minds up so that they can come to christ. however i do not go about it the way you do, youre negative comments has just reaffirmed that i am a firm believer in christ. hmm i wouldnt say respecting the fact that different people have different religious beliefs is sucking up to someone, would you call this country a kiss ass for accepting the different beliefs within society.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    Yes, and I would never ever suggest that this type of God simply does not exist. But I know of very few people who simply believe that God exists, and leave it at that. They all insist that God has specific characteristics which they couldn't possibly know about, and which couldn't possibly be true in light of scientific and philosophical knowledge. And so for all of these people, I am quite right to say 'No, that God definitely doesn't exist.'
    If someone holds a belief about God that is in direct contradiction with something we know to be true about the world, then you would be quite right to say that is almost certain that that God doesn't exist (I say almost certain because science has been known to be wrong about things in the past - this isn't reason to doubt current scientific theories, but it is reason to shy away from the word "definitely" :p: ). On the other hand, I don't think it's right to say that we cannot know any specifics about a God we believe to exist. The whole idea of revelation is that, while it is silly to think that we would be able to logically or empirically determine something about a transcendent deity by ourselves, it is not unreasonable to think that God might have revealed something of himself to humankind. Revelation - which is expressed through personal experiences and scriptures - is not dependent on the intellect of the human, but of the willingness of the deity to interract with humanity. Again, none of this proves or even implies that any particular revelation is true, but that it is not unreasonable to believe it if God's existence is presupposed.

    As I agree that deistic belief is rather pointless due to the lack of any positive reason for belief, I haven't responded to what you said of it. The only thing I would pick you up on is the following:

    you will still be believing in something without a solid basis for doing so, and that in itself is subject to criticism.
    There may be no solid empirical basis for doing so, but that does not mean there is no solid basis for it. If this is only in response to deism, then feel free to ignore this, but if you mean it in response to theistic faith as well I must point out that very few people believe in God without having some reason to believe. It might be personal religious experience, or it might be the fact that your parents believe and you trust them - whether or not you agree with the conclusion drawn, whether or not you believe it is good reason to believe, there is some reason.


    (Original post by Phugoid)
    I disagree. I think it's quite possible for somebody to believe in the existence of God, but to reject all myths and notions of earthly intervention on the basis of Scientific falsification. It's possible, it's credible, and it is a belief held by many (deists). However, as I said above, the act of believing in something without positive evidence of its existence (even if no falsifiable evidence exists) is not justifiable.

    The possibility that God exists is a reasonable one, it can be rational, it doesn't violate logic, and it doesn't violate our current knowledge. And that is why the belief in God differs from the belief in the particular types of God favoured by all modern religions. The God of all religions is not a reasonable God to believe in the existence of. The deist God is a reasonable God to believe in the existence of - it's possible - but you're still not justified in believing in him due to his lack of evidence.
    "The God of all modern religions" doesn't necessarily violate logic or our current knowledge. Again, if someone has reason to believe in one set of revelations (otherwise put, religion) over another, it may not be scientific reason - and it may not be reason you agree with - but it is reason nonetheless. The belief held by deists that you outlined above is certainly a reasonable one, but it does not necessarily discredit any other belief about God.

    (I think the number of times I have used the word "reason" in this post is an indication that I need to go to bed...)
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    (Original post by kemi231)
    i do not think that you can compare insulting someones religion with being offended by someone wearing high heels. what would you say to someone who is offended by someone using racist language, hmm should they just get on with it.
    There's a difference between offending somebody because of something that they cannot change (i.e., their skin colour), and offending them about something that they CHOOSE to believe in, or something they CHOOSE to be associated with.

    So no, it's not alright to judge people based on their physical characteristics, and insults to that effect do nothing but highlight the ingorance of the guy who said it.

    But it's absolutely fine to judge somebody based on the decisions they make, the processes they use, and the things that they believe.

    Being black doesn't shape your personality, but being religious does. Therefore, religious criticism is acceptable.

    it is clear that you are not mature enough to understand what being rude and having a rational conversation is. i have had many RATIONAL conversations with atheists and we were mature not insult one another, as that is just tacky.
    There was nothing irrational, untrue, or even slightly hyperbolic in my post. You found it insulting because you chose to find it insulting, and I refuse to take the blame for your decision.

    as a christian i try to open peoples minds up so that they can come to christ. however i do not go about it the way you do, youre negative comments has just reaffirmed that i am a firm believer in christ.
    LOL. So when somebody criticises your religion, you believe in it more, automatically. Rather than sitting back, thinking about the criticism, asking yourself if it was valid criticism (which it was), and then attempting to resolve the issues?

    You just say 'he's criticising my religion, therefore he must be wrong, therefore I must be right'. What bloody nonsense.

    hmm i wouldnt say respecting the fact that different people have different religious beliefs is sucking up to someone, would you call this country a kiss ass for accepting the different beliefs within society.
    What do you mean by 'respecting that people have different beliefs'. I KNOW that people have different beliefs, and I acknowledge that people have different beliefs. But I do not respect these beliefs automatically, and I certainly do not respect the idea that anybody is allowed to hold whatever belief they like without being challenged.

    Yes. This country is a kiss ass. It should not be bowing to the religious beliefs and religious wills of people who cannot prove that their wishes have any rational basis whatsoever.

    If you want an example of what a country turns into when it abandons reasons, and allows religion to take authority, then check out the nations of Western Asia and the Middle East.
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    (Original post by Sex Cauldron)
    The actual belief that there is a God, isn't so bad. I'm more agnostic, I don't have the answer but I'm not going to make them up and shout at people to accept them. My problem is with organised religions / cults and there myths and superstition. That's the obsurd part. Zombie jesus etc
    Ive noticed that with a lot of people who have a real issue with religion.

    Its the actual relgion they have problems with, not God. Its a shame that the two get intertwined because with me, i just believe in God, NOT religion. It never made sense to me, thats not to say its stupid or anything. Religion brings people happiness, stability, purpose etcc so im in not position to attack or bully a person just because they follow something that actually helps them A LOT.

    I live my life and get on with it. I let others do the same, whether they are religious, agnostic, atheist etcc. Its not my problem or concern what their stance is.
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    (Original post by Yusuf.T)
    Ive noticed that with a lot of people who have a real issue with religion.

    Its the actual relgion they have problems with, not God. Its a shame that the two get intertwined because with me, i just believe in God, NOT religion. It never made sense to me, thats not to say its stupid or anything. Religion brings people happiness, stability, purpose etcc so im in not position to attack or bully a person just because they follow something that actually helps them A LOT.

    I live my life and get on with it. I let others do the same, whether they are religious, agnostic, atheist etcc. Its not my problem or concern what their stance is.
    I treat both issues separately, but by the purest of coincedence, my conclusion is the same, and that is: you have no basis to believe this.

    1) Religion. Now, I don't really have to explain this to you, because you already agree with me. It doesn't make sense to you, and you know that most religious doctrines are just not compliant with reality. Religion takes God, and gives him very specific characteristics. And these characteristics almost always contradict basic truthes about the universe. The God of religions definitely doesn't exist. So my conclusion here is that you should not believe in the religions we know of today, because the doctrines actually contradict evidence.

    2) God. I have no problem with the hypothesis that a 'God' exists. It's perfectly valid, and it hasn't (and probably never will be) falsified. However, there's absolutely no evidence to support. So although it is a possibility, and although it is a valid hypothesis, it is a hypothesis that suffers from a distinct lack of credible evidence. So my conclusion here is that you should not believe that the existence of God is a true hypothesis, because although it doesn't contradict evidence, it also isn't supported by evidence, and hence, the only logical position on the question of whether a God exists is agnosticism, or anything less than 100% atheism.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    There's a difference between offending somebody because of something that they cannot change (i.e., their skin colour), and offending them about something that they CHOOSE to believe in, or something they CHOOSE to be associated with.

    So no, it's not alright to judge people based on their physical characteristics, and insults to that effect do nothing but highlight the ingorance of the guy who said it.

    But it's absolutely fine to judge somebody based on the decisions they make, the processes they use, and the things that they believe.

    Being black doesn't shape your personality, but being religious does. Therefore, religious criticism is acceptable.



    There was nothing irrational, untrue, or even slightly hyperbolic in my post. You found it insulting because you chose to find it insulting, and I refuse to take the blame for your decision.



    LOL. So when somebody criticises your religion, you believe in it more, automatically. Rather than sitting back, thinking about the criticism, asking yourself if it was valid criticism (which it was), and then attempting to resolve the issues?

    You just say 'he's criticising my religion, therefore he must be wrong, therefore I must be right'. What bloody nonsense.



    What do you mean by 'respecting that people have different beliefs'. I KNOW that people have different beliefs, and I acknowledge that people have different beliefs. But I do not respect these beliefs automatically, and I certainly do not respect the idea that anybody is allowed to hold whatever belief they like without being challenged.

    Yes. This country is a kiss ass. It should not be bowing to the religious beliefs and religious wills of people who cannot prove that their wishes have any rational basis whatsoever.

    If you want an example of what a country turns into when it abandons reasons, and allows religion to take authority, then check out the nations of Western Asia and the Middle East.
    im not asking you to respect other peoples religions but to respect the fact that they can believe in what they want without it being insulted. i am open to constuctive criticism about my religion, which i frequently get by the people around me. however no one has ever insulted the God that i believe in, and that is what i find offensive. i do not think that that this country bows down to the religious beliefs of people and i am more aware about the situations of some nations in the middle east, and i do not understand how and why you came up with that comparison.
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    Lol. So being an atheist and thinking that the world just exploded and came out nowhere makes more sense than someone actually creating you? Lol. Seriously atheist make no sense themselves when they criticise religion.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    I treat both issues separately, but by the purest of coincedence, my conclusion is the same, and that is: you have no basis to believe this.

    1) Religion. Now, I don't really have to explain this to you, because you already agree with me. It doesn't make sense to you, and you know that most religious doctrines are just not compliant with reality. Religion takes God, and gives him very specific characteristics. And these characteristics almost always contradict basic truthes about the universe. The God of religions definitely doesn't exist. So my conclusion here is that you should not believe in the religions we know of today, because the doctrines actually contradict evidence.

    2) God. I have no problem with the hypothesis that a 'God' exists. It's perfectly valid, and it hasn't (and probably never will be) falsified. However, there's absolutely no evidence to support. So although it is a possibility, and although it is a valid hypothesis, it is a hypothesis that suffers from a distinct lack of credible evidence. So my conclusion here is that you should not believe that the existence of God is a true hypothesis, because although it doesn't contradict evidence, it also isn't supported by evidence, and hence, the only logical position on the question of whether a God exists is agnosticism, or anything less than 100% atheism.
    OK then mate I want you o find evidence of that in every single major religion in the world out there and actually back-up your claim.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    Lol. So being an atheist and thinking that the world just exploded and came out nowhere makes more sense than someone actually creating you? Lol. Seriously atheist make no sense themselves when they criticise religion.
    First of all, no rational Atheists pretends to know HOW the universe came into existence.

    Nobody knows what happened before the big bang (if the concept of 'before' applies to the big bang), and atheists do not say that God did it, or that it 'just happened'. We simply don't know, but we don't attempt to hide our lack of knowledge - we don't know.

    However, what's wrong with believing that something 'just happened' anyway? Afterall, religious people believe that God 'just happened'. So if it doesn't make sense for an Atheist to believe that the universe 'just happened', then why should it make sense for a theist to believe that God 'just happened'?

    So you're either a hypocrite, or you just admitted that your belief makes no sense, which is it?
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    OK then mate I want you o find evidence of that in every single major religion in the world out there and actually back-up your claim.
    Evidence of what? The fact that all major religions believe in the personal God who intervenes?

    It's not exactly difficult to prove, is it?
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    How do you know they're not true, mate?
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    in psalm 22 it describes the crucifixion 1000 years before Jesus was born.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    First of all, no rational Atheists pretends to know HOW the universe came into existence.

    Nobody knows what happened before the big bang (if the concept of 'before' applies to the big bang), and atheists do not say that God did it, or that it 'just happened'. We simply don't know, but we don't attempt to hide our lack of knowledge - we don't know.

    However, what's wrong with believing that something 'just happened' anyway? Afterall, religious people believe that God 'just happened'. So if it doesn't make sense for an Atheist to believe that the universe 'just happened', then why should it make sense for a theist to believe that God 'just happened'?

    So you're either a hypocrite, or you just admitted that your belief makes no sense, which is it?
    Ahh but here is the point, God didn't just happen. Nowhere in the major religions does it say that 'god just happened' seriously look it up. And see this is why 'atheism' is flawed it just doesn't have the answers to anything, not the meaning to life, not to the origin of the earth. Atheist think they are 'smart' and know the answers when in reality they are the ones that are just questioning the meaning of life etc.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    Ahh but here is the point, God didn't just happen. Nowhere in the major religions does it say that 'god just happened' seriously look it up. And see this is why 'atheism' is flawed it just doesn't have the answers to anything, not the meaning to life, not to the origin of the earth. Atheist think they are 'smart' and know the answers when in reality they are the ones that are just questioning the meaning of life etc.
    LOL. You think YOU have the answers?

    Trust me mate, you don't have any answers.

    The only difference between Atheists and Theists on the matter of answers is that Atheists acknowledge that they don't have them, and readily admit it, whereas theists have too much of an ego to admit that they SIMPLY DON'T HAVE A ******* CLUE, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US.

    Most major religions say that 'God has always been, and always will be, without beginning or end'. Well, that makes about as much sense as a chocolate teapot.
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    I personally see all the magical stuff in the bible as icing on the cake just to grab your attention, and it would have back in the day. I see the moral teachings in the New testament, as the backbone of the bible. I personally see religion as a phyological thing(don't stone me), I see them as grown ups having an imaginery friend this time not to play with them but to help them and give advice and comfort them that is why you have the fatherly figure in the christian world(this is what i think, I am probably wrong), Islam you have the Kingly figure maybe becasue there is a part of us want to be lead. I see it not as a problem or illness but a state of mind, is like having brown hair, it defines you but your personality is what makes who you are.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    First of all, no rational Atheists pretends to know HOW the universe came into existence.

    Nobody knows what happened before the big bang (if the concept of 'before' applies to the big bang), and atheists do not say that God did it, or that it 'just happened'. We simply don't know, but we don't attempt to hide our lack of knowledge - we don't know.

    However, what's wrong with believing that something 'just happened' anyway? Afterall, religious people believe that God 'just happened'. So if it doesn't make sense for an Atheist to believe that the universe 'just happened', then why should it make sense for a theist to believe that God 'just happened'?

    So you're either a hypocrite, or you just admitted that your belief makes no sense, which is it?
    Because that isnt rational AT ALL
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    Because that isnt rational AT ALL
    If it's completely irrational, why are religious people satisfied by it for an explanation of where God came from?
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    If it's completely irrational, why are religious people satisfied by it for an explanation of where God came from?
    Because all believe God is eternal.
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    First of all, no rational Atheists pretends to know HOW the universe came into existence.

    Nobody knows what happened before the big bang (if the concept of 'before' applies to the big bang), and atheists do not say that God did it, or that it 'just happened'. We simply don't know, but we don't attempt to hide our lack of knowledge - we don't know.

    However, what's wrong with believing that something 'just happened' anyway? Afterall, religious people believe that God 'just happened'. So if it doesn't make sense for an Atheist to believe that the universe 'just happened', then why should it make sense for a theist to believe that God 'just happened'?

    So you're either a hypocrite, or you just admitted that your belief makes no sense, which is it?
    you two are like trying to see what shape a stone is on mars with your eyes, the beginning o the universe is a mystery to all, even it does lead to a super natural being, it doesn't have to be Jesus's dad, it could Allah, I sorry but I don't think you can adequately, refute God's existence by using the beginning of the world ideas(big bang)......
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    Religious Beliefs are a good thing, I started to believe after I had a little blip in my life and praying and having faith gave me a crutch, How can you celebrate christmas and have a blatant disregard for the whole point of that event, Its like an atheist getting married in a church. How can you say how the universe came into excistance we weren't there. Some People just need to accept that you can't explain everything in the world.
 
 
 
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