Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Why dont 'Common sense campaigners' protest against politically correct militarism? Watch

    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    a) Don't be such a moron, do you think you have to be someone special to make it in the army, the army is full of morons. As long as you have a minimum physical fitness and do as you're told they will love you. The person next to me on the shooting range couldn't hit a single thing (literally) and they liked that person more than me when i had the best accuracy of the whole group. I am sure if i wanted to i could join the army again, engineers appear tog et paid very well. However i don;t want to be responsible for blowing people up.

    b) The dregs of society appear to be their main support base followed closely by toffs. Many people still see the army as what it is.

    c) I don;t think we have a right to go to another country and change how they live, equally i don;t think we should have sharia law in the UK. I respect them for fighting, i think they are tough as nails and put our army to shame. I am not a socialist i believe in capitalism, i want to be a multi millionaire.

    Yep, i am a top athlete and top student, but some moron on the internet is offended by my views and so ofcourse i am some form of sub human. Well done for failing.


    You must be a troll. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. All of your points are sweeping generalisations with no facts at all!

    You werent good enough to get into the Army, just accept it. So what some people were better suited for that job than you. You are probably better at serving french fries orr pizza than they will ever be! Making bitter posts about them on the internet isn't going to help though.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    You must be a troll. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. All of your points are sweeping generalisations with no facts at all!

    You werent good enough to get into the Army, just accept it. So what some people were better suited for that job than you. You are probably better at serving french fries orr pizza than they will ever be! Making bitter posts about them on the internet isn't going to help though.

    Wow, you call me a troll and make such a troll post. Well done, you should win the irony award on TSR.

    You cast your pole but no biters this time.. haha.

    Don't worry bro if you practise your dance moves maybe girls will like you too...
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    a) Don't be such a moron, do you think you have to be someone special to make it in the army, the army is full of morons. As long as you have a minimum physical fitness and do as you're told they will love you. The person next to me on the shooting range couldn't hit a single thing (literally) and they liked that person more than me when i had the best accuracy of the whole group. I am sure if i wanted to i could join the army again, engineers appear tog et paid very well. However i don;t want to be responsible for blowing people up.

    b) The dregs of society appear to be their main support base followed closely by toffs. Many people still see the army as what it is.

    c) I don;t think we have a right to go to another country and change how they live, equally i don;t think we should have sharia law in the UK. I respect them for fighting, i think they are tough as nails and put our army to shame. I am not a socialist i believe in capitalism, i want to be a multi millionaire.

    Yep, i am a top athlete and top student, but some moron on the internet is offended by my views and so ofcourse i am some form of sub human. Well done for failing.
    Aww babs I feel for you, I doubt you have any Army history at all. But that post simply makes you look like a bitter child. Why didn't you run to the nice platoon Sgt? I'm sure he would have taken the matter up with the young subbie and they would have sorted it out if the other soldiers were being mean to you.

    The course of action you want to take is burying your head in the sand and pretending the problem isn't there. This is not a problem that will go away simply because we 'leave their nations alone'. We would get bombed again, therefore it is vital to prevent any extremist organisation having anywhere safe to hold out in the world.

    Oh btw, has anyone told you that you have a superiority problem? If you have already served in the army like you claim to have, why the hell are you on a student forum, nonce? Is it because you can't argue with anyone with any more life experience than us?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    Aww babs I feel for you, I doubt you have any Army history at all. But that post simply makes you look like a bitter child. Why didn't you run to the nice platoon Sgt? I'm sure he would have taken the matter up with the young subbie and they would have sorted it out if the other soldiers were being mean to you.

    The course of action you want to take is burying your head in the sand and pretending the problem isn't there. This is not a problem that will go away simply because we 'leave their nations alone'. We would get bombed again, therefore it is vital to prevent any extremist organisation having anywhere safe to hold out in the world.

    Oh btw, has anyone told you that you have a superiority problem? If you have already served in the army like you claim to have, why the hell are you on a student forum, nonce? Is it because you can't argue with anyone with any more life experience than us?
    Are you under the impression i care what you think. I am not a typical army sort of person i just thought it would be fun, i however found them to be very racist and i didn't want to be apart of it. I didn't like them and they didn't like me. They want dumb people who do what they are told regardless of ability.

    The only reason we were bombed is because we attacked other people. Invading nations and killing people usually results in people attacking you back.

    I am a student.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Why dont 'Common sense campaigners' protest against politically correct militarism?

    To expand.

    I see very often people who consider themselves common sense campaigners campaigning against political correctness. They claim it is ridiculous that we should have winterval instead of christmas (The idea of winterval was not designed to replace christmas but seized upon anyway).
    Many of the notions they campaign against appear to target ethnic minorities and quite honestly appear to be veiled racism.

    My intrigue to whether this is really a movement against political correctness or a form of veiled racism has led me to question why these people do not campaign against the increasing militarism in the UK.

    Today it is politically correct to call soldiers heros, to claim the war in Afghanistan is for a good cause, to revel in military parades, to chastise protesters who are legitiamtely protesting returning soldiers. Help for Heroes is a very politically correct cause to support.

    It appears many people would complain some political correctness is allowing the destruction of British culture and that supporting the military does not damage British culture thus military support is not offensive. However it appears to me this new militaristic fervor has been imported from the USA and is very Un-British, when i grew up it was normal to be skeptical of the military this however is being replaced by the American culture of hero whorshipping soldiers.

    I cosndier this a very dangerous and backwards culture to be apart of and would like to hear the views of the student room to this phenomenom.
    Okay, well, as you rightly pointed out political correctness is seen by many as an attack on British culture. I think that is true, and am a sworn enemy off political correctness. Even though I am not a rascisst myself, I think racism is a legitimate point of view and so should not be stifled by PC either - stiffling it just creates problems.

    As far as your point about the military goes, you clearly don't know anything about Britain pre-"Cool Britannia". Look up the videos of those greeting those who returned from the Falklands War - we use to be a coutnry that adored our military and would worship the ground they walked on (well, eagerating, but you get the point).
    We are more militarist than we were a couple of years ago, simply because the Iraq War was a major downer on the military, but since then the cause in Afganistan has improved people's opinion of the armed forces (even if it hasn't thee politicians :p: ).

    But yes, anyway, no, Britain has always loved it military, ecept during Cool Britannia and the Iraq War. It's a very British thing.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jammythedodger)
    Okay, well, as you rightly pointed out political correctness is seen by many as an attack on British culture. I think that is true, and am a sworn enemy off political correctness. Even though I am not a rascisst myself, I think racism is a legitimate point of view and so should not be stifled by PC either - stiffling it just creates problems.

    As far as your point about the military goes, you clearly don't know anything about Britain pre-"Cool Britannia". Look up the videos of those greeting those who returned from the Falklands War - we use to be a coutnry that adored our military and would worship the ground they walked on (well, eagerating, but you get the point).
    We are more militarist than we were a couple of years ago, simply because the Iraq War was a major downer on the military, but since then the cause in Afganistan has improved people's opinion of the armed forces (even if it hasn't thee politicians :p: ).

    But yes, anyway, no, Britain has always loved it military, ecept during Cool Britannia and the Iraq War. It's a very British thing.

    I disagree its very un-British to be militaristic.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Are you under the impression i care what you think. I am not a typical army sort of person i just thought it would be fun, i however found them to be very racist and i didn't want to be apart of it. I didn't like them and they didn't like me. They want dumb people who do what they are told regardless of ability.

    The only reason we were bombed is because we attacked other people. Invading nations and killing people usually results in people attacking you back.

    I am a student.
    You are a mong.

    All you are in someone who tried to join the army but couldn't hack it. You hate the idea of knowing they are better than you, and even though you may be smarter than them, and in your own mind more deserving of respect, it drives you mental to see soldiers getting more respect than you.

    You have little or no understanding of these affairs, which is what enables you to come to such naive conclusions about Afghanistan and other such conflicts. You want to hate the Army though so I very much doubt you will listen to any common sense sent your way.

    You obviously do care what I think of you, because each time you come back recycling the same old **** about how you think you're better.

    S'ok, your mum still thinks you're great. Although having said that she's probably your sister as well.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    You are a mong.

    All you are in someone who tried to join the army but couldn't hack it. You hate the idea of knowing they are better than you, and even though you may be smarter than them, and in your own mind more deserving of respect, it drives you mental to see soldiers getting more respect than you.

    You have little or no understanding of these affairs, which is what enables you to come to such naive conclusions about Afghanistan and other such conflicts. You want to hate the Army though so I very much doubt you will listen to any common sense sent your way.

    You obviously do care what I think of you, because each time you come back recycling the same old **** about how you think you're better.

    S'ok, your mum still thinks you're great. Although having said that she's probably your sister as well.

    Haha, you are a moron.

    I am stronger smarter and better than any soldier in the british army. They are a bunch of scum bags. They are little girls whining because they have to fight guys with AK-47s. Afghans are so tough. British people feel sorry for soldiers because they know they are soft, all they want to do is play playstation but instead they have to fight guys who have balls of steel.

    I support the Afghan lions and i wish them all the success they need to defeat the girly British soldiers who are trying to change their way of life.

    It shouldn;t be hard i can already hear the British little girls crying.... ''we need more equipment... we're not meant to die here''. Whereas the Afghans have nothing and they have an attitude like ''Who cares if i have no weapons this is my country and i will happily die and fight for it''.

    The Afghans are a real inspiration unlike our girly armed forces.

    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Haha, you are a moron.

    I am stronger smarter and better than any soldier in the british army. They are a bunch of scum bags. They are little girls whining because they have to fight guys with AK-47s. Afghans are so tough. British people feel sorry for soldiers because they know they are soft, all they want to do is play playstation but instead they have to fight guys who have balls of steel.

    I support the Afghan lions and i wish them all the success they need to defeat the girly British soldiers who are trying to change their way of life.

    It shouldn;t be hard i can already hear the British little girls crying.... ''we need more equipment... we're not meant to die here''. Whereas the Afghans have nothing and they have an attitude like ''Who cares if i have no weapons this is my country and i will happily die and fight for it''.

    The Afghans are a real inspiration unlike our girly armed forces.

    Once upon a time traitors got hung.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Haha, you are a moron.

    I am stronger smarter and better than any soldier in the british army. They are a bunch of scum bags. They are little girls whining because they have to fight guys with AK-47s. Afghans are so tough. British people feel sorry for soldiers because they know they are soft, all they want to do is play playstation but instead they have to fight guys who have balls of steel.

    I support the Afghan lions and i wish them all the success they need to defeat the girly British soldiers who are trying to change their way of life.

    It shouldn;t be hard i can already hear the British little girls crying.... ''we need more equipment... we're not meant to die here''. Whereas the Afghans have nothing and they have an attitude like ''Who cares if i have no weapons this is my country and i will happily die and fight for it''.

    The Afghans are a real inspiration unlike our girly armed forces.

    I knew it

    Technically it's not the Afghans we're fighting, it's the insurgents who are as much invaders as we are.

    You support the Afghans who support us. Nice backfire.


    Say hello to Challenger btw, it won't leave you with much left to enjoy those 72 virgins with
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    A consequence of us being there is also thousands of innocent Afghans homeless and dead. Tell me, does that justify us being there?

    A consequence of us being there is more and more Afghani sympathy for the Taliban and Bin Laden, does that justify us being there?

    A consequence of us being there is the installation of Karzhai as president a man who is so corrupt he makes the Taliban look legitimate.

    A consequence of us being there is a growing list of young British soldiers dead, and for what? Afghanistan is one of many countries that harbour and support terrorists. When are we going to invade Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan or Syria? If anything our presence in the middle east plays into the hands of master propogandists like Bin Lade and Abu Hamza.


    I could go on.
    How many more would die if the taliban were left in power? Also how many deaths is freedom from fear and intimidation worth?

    Prove there is more sympathy for the taliban than before.

    Well karzai has some faults but as far as I know he doesn't take teenage girls out into the middle of football stadiums and stone them does he?

    The British soldiers are dying so that those in afghanistan who don't want to live under islamist tyranny don't have to. Pakistan actively fights the taliban. Syria can be peacefully subverted in time. As for saudi arabia I would support intervention against an evil regime just as bad as the taliban.

    If an evil dictatorship took over the UK and the legitimate government asked for foreign help against the dictators would you want other nations to come to our aid?

    Please do go on.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    Actually the railway has a much more significant fatality risk.

    How is changing the way we live any different? Maybe if we had sharia law we would have less teenage pregnancy and lower STI rates....

    We don't have a right to change the Afghan way of life to conform with what we want. It was Machiavelli who said in the Prince that you cannot conquer an enemy and change their way of life, it will never work they will rebel against your changes.

    A taliban man is killed because he stands for an evil ideology? Or his wife was killed in a bombing raid by American planes and he wants to rid his country of enemy soldiers...

    You are so brainwashed it is sad.

    So you are attacking all muslims now rather than the Taliban? Are you anti-Islamist?

    That is the muslim world for muslims, let them live by their own laws and how theys ee fit you have no right to change it and tell them how to live.
    Working on railways isn't dangerous get over yourself.

    Personally id prefer everyone be infected with syphilis and every teenage girl to be pregnant than live under sharia law.

    You can change a peoples way of life if you stick at it long enough, its been done. Also its not changing the afghan way of life someone here mentioned that the afghans used to have a stableish secular republic. We are only helping the republicans get back on top.

    Foreign soldiers are not the afghan mans enemy unless he is taliban in the first place. Unfortunately some people will fight because a family member was killed by ISAF and that is very sad.

    Calling someone brainwashed isnt a good argument it just shows your own weakness.

    Islamists? Yes I don't like them but don't confuse them with regular muslims.

    We are giving them the opportunity to live there lives the way they see fit by giving them a democracy which is far more representative than the taliban ever was.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    How many more would die if the taliban were left in power? Also how many deaths is freedom from fear and intimidation worth?
    The year we leave Afghnaistan i predict with complete certanity that there will be another bloody coup and further civil war. It might not be the Taliban wh come back to power, but i predict the pro-western Government of Karzai will not remain in power.

    Prove there is more sympathy for the taliban than before.
    There may not be direct sympathy for the Taliban, but there is certainly alot more hate for the west, either way Al Qaeda win. Which is bad because isn't that why we went over there in the first place.. to stop Bin Laden and Al Qadea, or did we abandon that after the first few months so that we could secure our interests and bring over the corporations to start "nation building".......

    Well karzai has some faults but as far as I know he doesn't take teenage girls out into the middle of football stadiums and stone them does he?
    This is a leader who would make it legal for a man to rape his wife. Trying to justify it by saying "oh well at least he doesn't kill them" deems that all those British troops who have given their lives to free the Afghan people have given them in vain.

    Pakistan actively fights the taliban. Syria can be peacefully subverted in time. As for saudi arabia I would support intervention against an evil regime just as bad as the taliban.
    Pakistan fights the Taliban reluctantly and only because we tell it to. The only reason that military dictatorship is still in power is because we support, fund and keep it in power. As for Saudi Arabia, we are supporting the reign of that incredibly unpopular, authoritarian, tyranical Royal Family. Just by keeping them in power we are alienating and angering hundreds of thousands of Muslims within that country. By supporting the rule of this family America and Britain become complete and utter hypocrites in regards to Afghanistan, and once again our troops die in vain.

    If an evil dictatorship took over the UK and the legitimate government asked for foreign help against the dictators would you want other nations to come to our aid?
    Legitimate Government? lol. Before the Taliban took control Afghanistan was a lawless even more brutal place. Tribes and gangs roamed the country carrying American bought weapons and using American taught tactics. Remenants from the Soviet invasion. These gangs and tribes raped, pillaged and killed their way through and around Afghanistan, all through the late 80's. The Taliban were welcomed in the 90's and although they were incredibly hardline, the Afghan people were desperate for some kind of order. Nobody asked the west to intervene, so your argument is irellavent, We went to Afghanistan at first to capture Bin Laden and destroy Al Qaeda, however, during the battle of Tora Bora, America pretty much let him get away, and then turned around, totally forgetting about Bin Laden... Now the mission was to free the Afghan people and take control of the country, one less anti-American nation in the midddle east, a couple of years later and we wage war in Iraq, now thats two less anti-American regimes in the middle east. What the hell eh? It only cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    The year we leave Afghnaistan i predict with complete certanity that there will be another bloody coup and further civil war. It might not be the Taliban wh come back to power, but i predict the pro-western Government of Karzai will not remain in power.



    There may not be direct sympathy for the Taliban, but there is certainly alot more hate for the west, either way Al Qaeda win. Which is bad because isn't that why we went over there in the first place.. to stop Bin Laden and Al Qadea, or did we abandon that after the first few months so that we could secure our interests and bring over the corporations to start "nation building".......



    This is a leader who would make it legal for a man to rape his wife. Trying to justify it by saying "oh well at least he doesn't kill them" deems that all those British troops who have given their lives to free the Afghan people have given them in vain.



    Pakistan fights the Taliban reluctantly and only because we tell it to. The only reason that military dictatorship is still in power is because we support, fund and keep it in power. As for Saudi Arabia, we are supporting the reign of that incredibly unpopular, authoritarian, tyranical Royal Family. Just by keeping them in power we are alienating and angering hundreds of thousands of Muslims within that country. By supporting the rule of this family America and Britain become complete and utter hypocrites in regards to Afghanistan, and once again our troops die in vain.



    Legitimate Government? lol. Before the Taliban took control Afghanistan was a lawless even more brutal place. Tribes and gangs roamed the country carrying American bought weapons and using American taught tactics. Remenants from the Soviet invasion. These gangs and tribes raped, pillaged and killed their way through and around Afghanistan, all through the late 80's. The Taliban were welcomed in the 90's and although they were incredibly hardline, the Afghan people were desperate for some kind of order. Nobody asked the west to intervene, so your argument is irellavent, We went to Afghanistan at first to capture Bin Laden and destroy Al Qaeda, however, during the battle of Tora Bora, America pretty much let him get away, and then turned around, totally forgetting about Bin Laden... Now the mission was to free the Afghan people and take control of the country, one less anti-American nation in the midddle east, a couple of years later and we wage war in Iraq, now thats two less anti-American regimes in the middle east. What the hell eh? It only cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives...
    As there are no immediate plans to withdraw its impossible to predict what the circumstances will be when we do leave, the iraqis seem to be almost ready to have complete control of iraq again and maintain there new democracy.

    I would disagree that there is more hate for the west in afghanistan as we have done more for the people there in terms of building schools and hospitals than the taliban ever did. So long as we continue to help build up afghanistan and act correctly when dealing with afghans they will continue to gain trust in us.

    It was our weakness and stupidity that stopped us from imposing a bill of rights and a constitution on afghanistan straight after we arrived unfortunately its to late to change that now and we must try to get karzai to become more moderate. We should have got a UN high commisioner to rule over afghanistan for a while but again its to late now so we must work with what we have.

    Im pretty sure that the government of pakistan would fight the taliban rather than give up its own power to rebels, also the more liberal muslims in the major cities would be very opposed to a taliban takeover.

    Im not defending British and american policies on saudi arabia I don't like them either. But when the governemnt does something right like attacking the taliban I don't call it hypocritical I support it because its doing the right thing in that single policy.

    Well I meant internationally recognised government which did request help from the UN to repel the taliban. I know about the brutality of the warlords and how the taliban were welcomed but im sure people would be even happier with a nice republic.

    Your focusing on a very cynical view of the wars, one could spin it the other way, one hundred thousand people died in iraq so that 30,000,000 people could have freedom from fear and persecution and countless millions of future lives have been saved because saddam and his heirs are no longer around to commit atrocities. Also iraq now has a liberal secular constitution that respects peoples rights.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    As there are no immediate plans to withdraw its impossible to predict what the circumstances will be when we do leave, the iraqis seem to be almost ready to have complete control of iraq again and maintain there new democracy.
    I do not think so, the men we are curently arming up in the thousands are the Sunni's who were Saddams henchmen during the 90's. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there is a military coup once we leave. With the Sunni's in control of the military, it wont be hard to threaten and subjegate their shi'ite rivals into obedience, just like under Saddam.

    I would disagree that there is more hate for the west in afghanistan as we have done more for the people there in terms of building schools and hospitals than the taliban ever did. So long as we continue to help build up afghanistan and act correctly when dealing with afghans they will continue to gain trust in us.
    But at the moment we arent gaining trust, we push forward, drive the Taliban out, destroying a village in the process, then we fall back allowing the Taliban to regain control and preach against the destruction that the infidels bring. It is well documented, and will stir hatred no matter how many schools we build in Kabul.

    It was our weakness and stupidity that stopped us from imposing a bill of rights and a constitution on afghanistan straight after we arrived unfortunately its to late to change that now and we must try to get karzai to become more moderate. We should have got a UN high commisioner to rule over afghanistan for a while but again its to late now so we must work with what we have.
    There would have been an outcry if a UN high commisioner had taken control. That's not helping the Afghans, that's colonialism pure and simple. The fact is that compared to the west, middle eastern politics are irrational Reagan ssaid it himself after the Lebanon fiasco. We expected to go over there and impose a western Government regardles of the fact that never works in the Mid East ie Iran.
    .

    Im not defending British and american policies on saudi arabia I don't like them either. But when the governemnt does something right like attacking the taliban I don't call it hypocritical I support it because its doing the right thing in that single policy.
    But we have created/are creating terrorists by supporting the Saudi family. Osama said so himself in his second video. Support of the Saudi family and trespassing on sacred muslim holy land were given as explicit reasons (among others) for the 9/11 attacks. He called them retaliation.

    Well I meant internationally recognised government which did request help from the UN to repel the taliban. I know about the brutality of the warlords and how the taliban were welcomed but im sure people would be even happier with a nice republic.
    Well it's funny you say that because Afghanistan did actually have quite a liberal (albeit grassroots) democracy in the 1970's however it made the mistake of trading and becoming friendly with it's neighbour the USSR. The US under the guise of a crusade against communism, encouraged and funded Islamic fundamentalists who were unhappy with the liberal government to rise up and overthrow them. These same people were the men who treated women like animals and believed they had no rights, men who were pretty much identical to the modern Taliban. Their attacks prompted the afghan Gov to ask the Soviets for help, who initially refused, however after further provocation the US got what it wnated and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan beginning a war that would kill 2 million civilians and leave the nation a wreck, weak and ready to be taken advantage of by groups like the Taliban.

    Our Governments and therefore us are responsible for what has happened in Afghanistan, what happened on 9/11 and what happens everyday to our troops dying on the fornt line trying to fix the mistakes of our fathers.

    Your focusing on a very cynical view of the wars, one could spin it the other way, one hundred thousand people died in iraq so that 30,000,000 people could have freedom from fear and persecution and countless millions of future lives have been saved because saddam and his heirs are no longer around to commit atrocities. Also iraq now has a liberal secular constitution that respects peoples rights.
    You also seem to forget that we supported and were allied to Saddam while he commited these atrocities. We provided him with the technology to develop chemical weapons which would later become the WMD's and even encouraged him to use them against Iran during the war in the 80's. When we forced economic sanctions on Iraq after the first Gulf War we played into Saddams hands, he had someone to blame his economic mistakes on, and as a bonus we continuously bombed the country all the way throgh the 90's killing thousands more. It's like i said in an above post, we have armed up the Sunni's now, this war is far from over, unless we let it be.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    Working on railways isn't dangerous get over yourself.

    Personally id prefer everyone be infected with syphilis and every teenage girl to be pregnant than live under sharia law.

    You can change a peoples way of life if you stick at it long enough, its been done. Also its not changing the afghan way of life someone here mentioned that the afghans used to have a stableish secular republic. We are only helping the republicans get back on top.

    Foreign soldiers are not the afghan mans enemy unless he is taliban in the first place. Unfortunately some people will fight because a family member was killed by ISAF and that is very sad.

    Calling someone brainwashed isnt a good argument it just shows your own weakness.

    Islamists? Yes I don't like them but don't confuse them with regular muslims.

    We are giving them the opportunity to live there lives the way they see fit by giving them a democracy which is far more representative than the taliban ever was.
    It is dangerous you're a moron.

    Who cares what you would prefer.

    You cry so hard about Sharia law and appear to like UKIP but think Britain is entitled to change another nations way of life.

    The soldiers fighting against the allied army are Afghan fighters you cannot accurately determine their motive. Many are probably nationalists, many have been hurt, humiliated or had family hurt by the allied forces, some will be Taliban, some will be angry muslims wanting to kill british and American etc..... We are in their country not the other way around.

    So you don't like Islam but you like muslims.... ok...

    Are you under the impression cdemocracy is representative? This is a whole other argument, but democracy is anything but representative. Let me just point out that we haven't had a single primeminister who hasn't gone to either Cambridge or Oxford. Democracy just allows the rich to control us. FACT! Or in the Afghans case the west to control them.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheJudge)
    It is dangerous you're a moron.

    Who cares what you would prefer.

    You cry so hard about Sharia law and appear to like UKIP but think Britain is entitled to change another nations way of life.

    The soldiers fighting against the allied army are Afghan fighters you cannot accurately determine their motive. Many are probably nationalists, many have been hurt, humiliated or had family hurt by the allied forces, some will be Taliban, some will be angry muslims wanting to kill british and American etc..... We are in their country not the other way around.

    So you don't like Islam but you like muslims.... ok...

    Are you under the impression cdemocracy is representative? This is a whole other argument, but democracy is anything but representative. Let me just point out that we haven't had a single primeminister who hasn't gone to either Cambridge or Oxford. Democracy just allows the rich to control us. FACT! Or in the Afghans case the west to control them.
    Can you tell me how many people have died working on the railways over the past 10 years or so?

    Well it is a debate and discussion forum so im giving my opinion.

    Yep pretty much I do think that we have the right to confront evil people and not let them hide behind terms like tradition, culture religion and way of life.

    Yeah we are in there country to defend the innocent people there from the nutters who shoot at the troops. You think the average afghan likes the crazy foreign muslim who has gone to afghanistan simply to plant bombs? Point is just because one section of society doesn't want us there doesn't mean that the majority hate us or that we should abandon the innocent people there to their fate.

    Islamism is a specific type of islam its very extreme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism its not like everyday islam.

    I don't really care for conspiracy theories.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I do not think so, the men we are curently arming up in the thousands are the Sunni's who were Saddams henchmen during the 90's. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there is a military coup once we leave. With the Sunni's in control of the military, it wont be hard to threaten and subjegate their shi'ite rivals into obedience, just like under Saddam.



    But at the moment we arent gaining trust, we push forward, drive the Taliban out, destroying a village in the process, then we fall back allowing the Taliban to regain control and preach against the destruction that the infidels bring. It is well documented, and will stir hatred no matter how many schools we build in Kabul.



    There would have been an outcry if a UN high commisioner had taken control. That's not helping the Afghans, that's colonialism pure and simple. The fact is that compared to the west, middle eastern politics are irrational Reagan ssaid it himself after the Lebanon fiasco. We expected to go over there and impose a western Government regardles of the fact that never works in the Mid East ie Iran.
    .



    But we have created/are creating terrorists by supporting the Saudi family. Osama said so himself in his second video. Support of the Saudi family and trespassing on sacred muslim holy land were given as explicit reasons (among others) for the 9/11 attacks. He called them retaliation.



    Well it's funny you say that because Afghanistan did actually have quite a liberal (albeit grassroots) democracy in the 1970's however it made the mistake of trading and becoming friendly with it's neighbour the USSR. The US under the guise of a crusade against communism, encouraged and funded Islamic fundamentalists who were unhappy with the liberal government to rise up and overthrow them. These same people were the men who treated women like animals and believed they had no rights, men who were pretty much identical to the modern Taliban. Their attacks prompted the afghan Gov to ask the Soviets for help, who initially refused, however after further provocation the US got what it wnated and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan beginning a war that would kill 2 million civilians and leave the nation a wreck, weak and ready to be taken advantage of by groups like the Taliban.

    Our Governments and therefore us are responsible for what has happened in Afghanistan, what happened on 9/11 and what happens everyday to our troops dying on the fornt line trying to fix the mistakes of our fathers.



    You also seem to forget that we supported and were allied to Saddam while he commited these atrocities. We provided him with the technology to develop chemical weapons which would later become the WMD's and even encouraged him to use them against Iran during the war in the 80's. When we forced economic sanctions on Iraq after the first Gulf War we played into Saddams hands, he had someone to blame his economic mistakes on, and as a bonus we continuously bombed the country all the way throgh the 90's killing thousands more. It's like i said in an above post, we have armed up the Sunni's now, this war is far from over, unless we let it be.

    The shiites are in a majority in the iraqi army though, plus there is a shiite prime minister. Plus a couple of permanent american military bases can be built or the iraqi armed forces could be supported from kuwaiti and saudi bases which would prevent uprisings.

    The army doesn't destroy villages that would cause massive casualties or just be pointless if its done vindictively. That said having many more troops to hold ground would be better but unfortuantely it doesn't look like the government is up for that. Plus in time corruption in the afghan police will be rooted out and they can take over the role of holding the villages.

    It would depend on who the UN guy was and for how long he was to rule, it was afterall done in bosnia to good effect. A brief period under foreign rule would have given the allies chance to destroy the warlords as well, as they wouldn't have faced any opposition from the afghan government.

    I know the saudi royals are bad and like I have said I don't like our policy there and I want it to change.

    The only way we can even partially make up what we did to afghanistan is by staying in their country and helping it get back to the way it once was and try and make it even better. I know that previous governments have a lot of responsibility for what happened which is partially why im very much in favour of todays government trying to repair the harm that was done.

    Thankfully our policy toward saddam changed and I see no reason to criticise the government when it starts to do something right. Again the fact that we were allied to saddam means that we are partially responsible for what he did so I think it fitting that we try and repair some of the damage. The bombings were to enforce the ceasefire and enforce the no-fly zones this had to be done to prevent the kurds from being massacred.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    The shiites are in a majority in the iraqi army though, plus there is a shiite prime minister. Plus a couple of permanent american military bases can be built or the iraqi armed forces could be supported from kuwaiti and saudi bases which would prevent uprisings.
    I do not think this will stop a civil war. Personally i think that American bases are a bad idea. It would be obvious they would support the shi'ite majority, creating alot of negative feelings among the Sunni's. This is an issue that is thousands of years old and something we need to let Iraq sort our of itself.


    It would depend on who the UN guy was and for how long he was to rule, it was afterall done in bosnia to good effect. A brief period under foreign rule would have given the allies chance to destroy the warlords as well, as they wouldn't have faced any opposition from the afghan government.
    It would have also created massive outrage throughout the Muslim world, and given Osama an absolute colossal propaganda opportunity. We would have legitimised his reasons given for attacking the west.

    I know the saudi royals are bad and like I have said I don't like our policy there and I want it to change.
    But how can you support the reasons our Government are in Afghanistan when they are blatantley contradicting themselves in Saudi. All we would have to do would be to remove our support and funding, there would be a coup or a civil war, who knows maybe even a democracy. But we will not stop supporting them, no matter what the human rights violations commited, no matter how many women stoned to death. Regardless of your personal views on Saudi, how can you have faith that the reasons given to us by the Government for our occupation of Afghanistan are genuine?

    The only way we can even partially make up what we did to afghanistan is by staying in their country and helping it get back to the way it once was and try and make it even better. I know that previous governments have a lot of responsibility for what happened which is partially why im very much in favour of todays government trying to repair the harm that was done.
    We are doing more harm than good, we fail day after day to understand the irrationality of Afghan politics and tribal tradition. Despite political, military, and financial support from the United States, a myriad of problems remain. The Afghan Transitional Administration has been slow to gain credibility in Afghanistan, in part because many Afghans believe this government to have been externally imposed by the Americans without a natural constituency in Afghanistan. Weaknesses of the Afghan government are blamed on the United States; for example, the United States has received criticism over the ethnic composition of the Karzai government, since ethnic Tajiks dominate major cabinet positions, alienating the Pushtun tribes. Human rights groups have cited widespread extortion, lawlessness, and kidnapping by Afghan
    police and intelligence officials. These groups accuse the United States of supporting some of the worst offenders and for not doing more to stop the abuses. U.S. involvement in Afghanistan is also complicated by Afghanistan's large opium production. Afghanistan grows more than 70 percent of the world's opium, and the U.S. - backed government has had little success in stopping its cultivation or halting its illegal smuggling to neighboring countries.

    U.S. military efforts in Afghanistan also have faced problems. In attempting to capture or kill alQaʿida or Taliban forces, the U.S. military inadvertently has caused a number of civilian deaths and dropped bombs on the wrong targets, including as a Red Cross warehouse and a United Nations mine-removal office. It is estimated that as many as 20,000 Afghans have died as the direct or indirect results of U.S. bombing, creating animosity toward the U.S. presence. The U.S. military also has been inadvertently involved in regional conflicts between contentious warlords, some of whom have induced the U.S. military to attack rival warlords by claiming that they are Taliban members.

    After several years, the U.S. military has largely failed to accomplish its major goals: The United States has been unable to pacify or bring security to much of Afghanistan; it has been unable to find bin Ladin or Muhammad (Mullah) Omar, head of the Taliban; it has been unable to eliminate the Taliban, which is regrouping; and it has alienated a growing number of Afghans, who are becoming impatient with the U.S. military presence. U.S. reconstruction efforts also have come under criticism. Despite some progress, poverty remains, many children are still not able to go to school, and women still find their lives constrained and must veil when they are in public.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrFroggy)
    Can you tell me how many people have died working on the railways over the past 10 years or so?

    Well it is a debate and discussion forum so im giving my opinion.

    Yep pretty much I do think that we have the right to confront evil people and not let them hide behind terms like tradition, culture religion and way of life.

    Yeah we are in there country to defend the innocent people there from the nutters who shoot at the troops. You think the average afghan likes the crazy foreign muslim who has gone to afghanistan simply to plant bombs? Point is just because one section of society doesn't want us there doesn't mean that the majority hate us or that we should abandon the innocent people there to their fate.

    Islamism is a specific type of islam its very extreme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism its not like everyday islam.

    I don't really care for conspiracy theories.

    Many people have died on the railways.

    Define evil? I consider Tony Blair evil, he should be arrested and hung. You have no right to push your customs on muslim people, you are the type of person who crys when people say they want Sharia law here. You are just the same as them.

    You are in no place to talk about what the average Afghan wants, i am sure the average Afghan does not want a foreign army on their soil and that is why they are resisitng these people.

    You have no right to talk about the innocent people, the people of Afghanistan have had their innocense taken from them by war mongerers like you. Its funny how you support this war yet you're talking to me on a computer in probably a middle class home. Go out and fight rather than talking about other peoples deaths.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: August 10, 2009
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.